Democratic Senator, Dick Durban: 'We Should Appeal To The Center'

ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Budget Buds said:
no merely cause you'r response is contingent on what I might say.......
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Ok, I might disagree. So what? Is your answer contingent on whether I see things the same way as you do? If so, then maybe your position is weak.

I'm more than willing to share my point of view, regardless of whether I think the other person will agree with me or not.

I'm asking you what you think the current administration's benefit is to you personally.

The reason I'm interested in your answer is quite simply because I'm experiencing a failure of the imagination, in that I can't think of any benefits unless I'm in a very high tax bracket.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Quote my falsehood. Are you saying that Mr Obama wasn't elected in a landslide, by many of the very same voters who then turned to the Chump? Prove it.
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People were not influenced by "parties are the same" or campaign finance corruption or economic issues.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
People were not influenced by "parties are the same" or campaign finance corruption or economic issues.
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Of course they were. People were also influenced based on race and gender. It would be foolish to argue otherwise. The fact is that a significant enough percentage of voters who voted for Obama also voted for Trump based on his economic populist message. I don't see how you can argue that someone in the rust belt who voted for Obama in 2008 is somehow racist because they voted for Trump in 2016. If they were racist, they wouldn't have voted for Obama in 2008... He was up against two white guys in both elections. Someone who is genuinely racist would have voted for the white guy both times.

To argue that all Trump supporters are racist obfuscates the real reasons Democrats have lost so significantly since Obama took office. "They're just racist!" is the same thing as saying "Gawd dun it!". It's an appeal to incredulity. It's a way to answer the question without actually solving the problem or saying anything of significance.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Of course they were. People were also influenced based on race and gender. It would be foolish to argue otherwise. The fact is that a significant enough percentage of voters who voted for Obama also voted for Trump based on his economic populist message. I don't see how you can argue that someone in the rust belt who voted for Obama in 2008 is somehow racist because they voted for Trump in 2016. If they were racist, they wouldn't have voted for Obama in 2008... He was up against two white guys in both elections. Someone who is genuinely racist would have voted for the white guy both times.

To argue that all Trump supporters are racist obfuscates the real reasons Democrats have lost so significantly since Obama took office. "They're just racist!" is the same thing as saying "Gawd dun it!". It's an appeal to incredulity. It's a way to answer the question without actually solving the problem or saying anything of significance.
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You confuse major effects with minor ones. The number of people who were influenced by Sanders policies and Democratic Party politics you focus on and who voted for Trump was very small. They were important only in the few districts that turned the election. They are why the election was close. Without them the election would have turned to Clinton.

It's a fact that the overwhelmingly large proportion of people who voted for Trump were not influenced by those issues. It was racism and sexism. This is why I keep repeating these facts when asked why the election was even close.

You keep trying to say "because 2008, then 2016" in terms of racial politics. Conditions. times and candidates were very different. For example, Obama was very charismatic, which neither Trump or Clinton are to most. There is no equivalence here.

Unlike in previous elections Trump strongly appealed to people who don't recognize that Black and Brown people experience hardship because of their skin color. They don't even see their own racist tendencies. There is an important difference between that description and the self pronounced white supremacist/racist who carries Nazi flags. Trump is most certainly a racist and white supremacist and those few hardcore voted for him. Trump won because he attracted the large number of people who fit the description of a person who simply doesn't recognize racism and sexism in our society. They have racist and sexist tendencies but aren't reliable racists to the Nazi flag wavers.
 
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S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
ttystikk said:
Let's take the last Great Democratic Savior;
1. Right wing healthcare- it was Romney care first
2. Bail out the banks, let millions of homeowners get foreclosed; can't be a lot more right wing than that
3. Undeclared wars around the world, drone strikes in dozens of countries, expanded defense budget. Yep, right wing.
4. Called himself a Reagan moderate and was proud of it.

No wonder your shit won't fly, Buck; you've got two right wings![/QUOTE]

coffee/screen +rep :clap:
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Referring to your replies to me:
KillerIndica said:
I like how you state this as fact, without a single link to a reputable source confirming your self-proclaimed "fact."

Just more centrist hot air.
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Also
KillerIndica said:
Either cite the studies or shut the fuck up. You're blowing many BTUs of hot air, but you haven't proven a thing. Link or STFU. Centrism is Nazism.
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Also:

KillerIndica said: ↑
CITE THE FUCKING STUDIES, OR SHUT THE FUCK UP, YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

but that ^^^ got deleted for some reason. LOL

Now that you've had a day or so to digest the information you so urgently needed, I'm sure that now you understand that the racist and sexist white vote was mostly to blame for Trump's win.

You can bake me a cake now. I like chocolate with blackberry marbled layers. Also a cup of freshly brewed French Press coffee made from high quality coffee beans will be acceptable with the cake.

This was a particularly convincing graph, wouldn't you agree?

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/18/544265493/chart-the-relationship-between-seeing-discrimination-and-voting-for-trump
upload_2017-10-23_17-44-44.png
 
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st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You confuse major effects with minor ones. The number of people who were influenced by Sanders policies and Democratic Party politics you focus on and who voted for Trump was very small. They were important only in the few districts that turned the election. They are why the election was close. Without them the election would have turned to Clinton.

It's a fact that the overwhelmingly large proportion of people who voted for Trump were not influenced by those issues. It was racism and sexism. This is why I keep repeating these facts when asked why the election was even close.

You keep trying to say "because 2008, then 2016" in terms of racial politics. Conditions. times and candidates were very different. For example, Obama was very charismatic, which neither Trump or Clinton are to most. There is no equivalence here.

Unlike in previous elections Trump strongly appealed to people who don't recognize that Black and Brown people experience hardship because of their skin color. They don't even see their own racist tendencies. There is an important difference between that description and the self pronounced white supremacist/racist who carries Nazi flags. Trump is most certainly a racist and white supremacist and those few hardcore voted for him. Trump won because he attracted the large number of people who fit the description of a person who simply doesn't recognize racism and sexism in our society. They have racist and sexist tendencies but aren't reliable racists to the Nazi flag wavers.
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So Richard Spencer and/or David Duke would be a shoe in for potus if they ran...because racism was the only reason Trump won?

Do you think Trump would have beaten Obama if he ran in 2012?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
So Richard Spencer and/or David Duke would be a shoe in for potus if they ran...because racism was the only reason Trump won?

Do you think Trump would have beaten Obama if he ran in 2012?
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I think you don't understand the difference between extrapolation and interpolation.

I have no idea who would have won in the contest you suggest. The paper on how racism played a role in Trump's win only applies to 2016. Please recall that I was trying to answer tty's question on why the 2016 election was even close. You guys just blame it on Clinton as if she were running alone. She wasn't running alone and Trump was very unusual candidate. Not saying Clinton wasn't weighed down with her own baggage but Trump's voters were very much influenced by Trump's racist and sexist language and policies. The wall, immigrants taking jobs, muslim extremists at our borders, that kind of stuff.

I absolutely think that other people will exploit this tactic in upcoming elections. They will do it until it is no longer effective.

Rather than pepper me with questions, what do you think about the conclusions in those studies? Did you read the papers at the links? Did they make sense to you?
 
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