2018 Abrogate Michigan Language Draft

[Norby Grown]

Doesn't milegalizes bill set violations and fines instead of arrest? How many of these violations are people being arrested for now? You could pretty much get those stats and subtract the ones being busted for what will become violations and what will be allowed and clearly see a reduction in arrests. With the increased allowance that would lower them even less since everyone will be able to grow 12. this will reduce need for major grows and out at least some control back into the hands of more people. I used to grow 12 on a perpetual grow and get 1/4lb or more a week. That will shut down the need for some big grows or import from cali, etc.
If you really want to dig this apart you can see just how much milegalize would make things better. Timmah keeps trying to paint "legalization as bad" in my interpretation of his posts. Why not tell us how abrogate is good instead of having to shoot down milegalize to show that? It's the presidential debates all over again.
Sureshot is simply trying to make up for the damage the abrogate crew is throwing on milegalize as far as I can see.
Just because we have a problem with militarized cops doesn't mean you shouldn't support a law that will make things better and clearly either one will make things better than they are now.
I've seen this from everyone who argues for abrogate, they all try and compare it to milegalize and they all are missing the point. They are falling right in to divide and conquer. There is no reason everyone shouldn't double down there bets and vote for both and sign for both if you truly support the people and not just yourself. People who weren't in the MMMA program voted for it for people other than themselves. Without that you wouldn't even have the MMMA!

@Sureshot2 How many MMMA patients/caregivers and their families have had their homes violently raided this past decade based simply off the no exception drug war probable cause tactic of a garbage pull to secure a warrant by a federally funded drug task force? Do you not think arrests/charges of all sorts occur as your "justice system" summarily dismisses your 4th Amendment rights along with your MMMA rights? Have you read People vs Brown justifying this?

IMHO the 17% increase in marijuana arrests does not even begin to tell the story of the threat and harm done by our "justice system" clearly corrupted by drug war conflict of interest/propaganda and the view of us (MMMA) as useful low hanging fruit to boost their numbers and feed their costly machine/industry.

BTW once raided and having all of your assets taken how does one come up with 10k just to get a "medical marijuana drug warrior" like Komorn to simply get started on a plea? What's a reasonable cost of a trial by these cats?

If you honestly want to read into this problem brother, try doing some reading/research rather than simply demanding proof to discredit ...

 

[TheMan13]

@Norby Grown MI Legalize and Abrogate are not in competition as mentioned repeatedly in this thread. I will sign and vote for both if given the opportunity. Don't misinterpret my criticism of the business model of lawfare/regulatory capture and their supporting characters with partisan politics or the divisive 2016 election/campaigns. If I'm not mistaken, it is the lawyers and lobbyists behind MI Legalize who went all in last year with Democrat partisan/establishment politics and much of this divide you speak of is a direct result of that is it not? "Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty." sound familiar?

MI Legalize, their lawyers and lobbyists have the $$$ to make the 2018 ballot, Abrogate on the other hand will need the assistance of the People or unwashed deplorables to have a chance ...

 

[Norby Grown]

No clue what you are talking about? This particularly went all in last year with Democrat partisan/establishment politics and much of this divide you speak of is a direct result of that is it not?

. If I'm not mistaken, it is the lawyers and lobbyists behind MI Legalize who went all in last year with Democrat partisan/establishment politics and much of this divide you speak of is a direct result of that is it not? "Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty." sound familiar?
.

 

[Norby Grown]

@Norby Grown MI Legalize and Abrogate are not in competition as mentioned repeatedly in this thread. I will sign and vote for both if given the opportunity. Don't misinterpret my criticism of the business model of lawfare/regulatory capture and their supporting characters with partisan politics or the divisive 2016 election/campaigns.

First off, tell Timmah as he constantly puts up the "it's legal till it's not". Whether you realize it or not, that is competition, that is putting down the Milegalize campaign, period. Worse it's overboard going just to tarnish one prop to bring people over to the other side. As I've said it allows what most people are getting arrested for, small amounts on their person. It sets up fines, from what I remember, for going overboard, one better than the MMMA. So if Timmah and you are going to put down the regulatory framework of Milegalize you are in competition, even if you say you aren't. Sorry that's logic.

 

[TheMan13]

Maybe you just haven't paid close enough attention these past couple of decades to understand the nuances separating us (the People) from them (the lawyers, lobbyists, politicians and business investor/donor class). Some of us have risked it all living in the shadows of society and being threatened by law enforcement to put in the real work that proved this marijuana as safe medicine proof of concept. The others have risked nothing, heavily taxing the former and building lucrative careers profiting from decades of legislation and litigation. Let's just say many of us don't share your admiration or view of the latter ...

 

[Norby Grown]

Maybe you just haven't paid close enough attention these past couple of decades to understand the nuances separating us (the People) from them (the lawyers, lobbyists, politicians and business investor/donor class). Some of us have risked it all living in the shadows of society and being threatened by law enforcement to put in the real work that proved this marijuana as safe medicine proof of concept. The others have risked nothing, heavily taxing the former and building lucrative careers profiting from decades of legislation and litigation. Let's just say many of us don't share your admiration or view of the latter ...

View attachment 4032923

Admiration? lol Just asked what they did to set up this division between moving forward no matter what that forward is, that is the people who drafted milegalize/whatever the other group is that merged, what did they do to set up a division between abrogate and milegalize? I didn't realize lobbyists and politicians were involved with milegalize.
I'm just realistic. Abrogate doesn't have a chance comparatively(if you must compare the 2), in getting sigs or getting more than 50% vote although I'm behind it 100%. Milegalize has a plan that is better than the MMMA from learning from what happened with the MMMA.

You don't think I've risked anything living in the shadows helping sick people? You don't think I hate lawyers and politicians too. I sure do but I won't throw people under the bus or undermine a bill because of it.

Unless there is a 3rd option, one that you could get thru volunteer and not having a boatload of money.

I'm ready to fight the establishment on every front, not just MJ but I don't let that get in the way of progress. When I see an org going all out against the higher ups, I'm in. But this is the way things are and I can't do a damn thing about it other than fully support both bills. If anyone says they support abrogate but not milegalize I think they are about the same as Shuette or Snyder. They'd both end up accomplishing the same thing. No progress. So if you want to make false claims about what milegalize will accomplish I'll be there to debunk it. Just because cops and politicians are crooked doesn't mean we should deny a bill because it doesn't go far enough to quell police and judges corruption. Those things have to be hit as a separate problem. Any written law isn't going to stop police corruption any more than the ones already on the books.

 

[TheMan13]

I'm just yanking your chain here brother. There is no question Tim is a character and has his faults as a man. There is no question Abrogate is a lofty idea that is underfunded and in turn under staffed. As a true not for profit intentionally not selling regulatory capture I can only applaud him on principle alone

My issue taken with you and sure shot is your criticism of the man behind Abrogate as if the group behind MI Legalize doesn't have a history, a profit motive or that regulatory capture is not a dangerous political game destroying this nation.

 

[Sureshot2]

I'm just yanking your chain here brother. There is no question Tim is a character and has his faults as a man. There is no question Abrogate is a lofty idea that is underfunded and in turn under staffed. As a true not for profit intentionally not selling regulatory capture I can only applaud him on principle alone

My issue taken with you and sure shot is your criticism of the man behind Abrogate as if the group behind MI Legalize doesn't have a history, a profit motive or that regulatory capture is not a dangerous political game destroying this nation.

My issue is not with Abrogate, but Tim himself (and several other supporters of his) - not for his morals or principals, but for how he responds to questions and criticism. If Tim had better tact and was more willing to listen to what people had to say without name calling, bashing or dividing the community, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Like I have stated many times, and as has Norby, there is really no reason to be bashing MiLegalize supporters or the bill itself so vehemently. You have even admitted yourself that Abrogate and MiLegalize are not in competition with each other, so really you should have no reason to be so against it. Will it fix all the problems? No, of course not, but it's a damn good start. Even if you refuse to believe so, MiLegalize will reduce arrests for possession, which as Norby has stated, comprise the bulk of arrests in MI. This is an undeniable fact, and for that reason alone, there should be no reason to oppose it.

Instead of trying to divide the community, why not just focus on your own campaign, be courteous to people, and instead of insulting them for supporting Milegalize, just explain why they should also support your movement. Milegalize might have business funding and lobbyists working in their favor, but most of the supporters are ordinary nice people who just want to legalize cannabis, not "lawyers, politicians and investors" as you and Tim have put it.

 

[TheMan13]

@Sureshot2 So you are saying that Tim is uncouth (in your opinion) and wrong for not falling in line behind MI Legalize, I get that. But do you honestly believe the group behind MI Legalize supports Tim personally or Abrogate in principle? Why is that or why is that not important in this conversation you are trying to have? Or is it just about the latter's good manners, refinement and grace to you? That was my point in that Goebbels quote I used earlier ...

That MPP meme/graphic I used comes from a recently exposed issue with the regulatory capture scheme sold as legalization in California that is now stepping on medical marijuana access in reality. What do you know about that or why is that not important here? What about the progression of this regulatory capture game witnessed in other states like Colorado and Washington in recent years. Is this history not important or is that conversation just another seed of division among our community?

Do you take issue with how and why we got MMFLA rather than MI Legalize in 2016? Is it not the same group of people that stand to profit from both? Do you take issue with that group throwing the founding MMMA soldiers (caregivers) under the bus to move onto a "better class" of clients and finally "get things done"?

 

[Sureshot2]

So you are saying that Tim is uncouth (in your opinion) and wrong for not falling in line behind MI Legalize, I get that. But do you honestly believe the group behind MI Legalize supports Tim personally or Abrogate in principle? Why is that or why is that not important in this conversation you are trying to have? Or is it just about the latter's good manners, refinement and grace to you? That was my point in that Goebbels quote I used earlier ...

I am not saying he is wrong for not falling in line behind MiLegalize, I completely understand that in his opinion its a bad bill. The difference between myself, Tim and you is that I am able to see both sides of this, and you are not. I have already said that MiLegalize is not the end all be all, holy grail of bills - but its better than what we have now. If you actually think legalizing recreational use with up to 12 plants and possession of 2.5oz on your person is worse than what we have now (completely illegal, even just for having one joint) then I simply have no other words to say. And yes, I have seen many supporters of MiLegalize say that they would also sign the Abrogate petition.

YOU are the one making this a competition. I literally have no affiliation with any of these groups, I simply signed the MiLegalize petition, and if I see the Abrogate petition around I will sign that as well. I have not come to the defense of any specific MiLegalize member. I am not on a witch hunt to call out and bash Abrogate supporters or go troll on their FB group, unlike yourselves regarding MiLegalize. I see many nasty posts on the MiLegalize fb group; I don't see them reciprocating it back to Abrogate though.

That MPP meme/graphic I used comes from a recently exposed issue with the regulatory capture scheme sold as legalization in California that is now stepping on medical marijuana access in reality. What do you know about that or why is that not important here? What about the progression of this regulatory capture game witnessed in other states like Colorado and Washington in recent years. Is this history not important or is that conversation just another seed of division among our community?

I can't speak for the California issue, but I do have friends and family that live in Colorado and I know for a fact that this regulatory capture you speak of has not made it any more difficult for patients to get meds. And I know for a fact when I go to Colorado I can walk in a dispensary and get anything I want without repercussion. Can I do that here? Would you really rather it just stay illegal, with growers and users hiding in the shadows forever? You must know that Abrogate has no chance, no matter how much you don't want to admit it. Are you really willing to crash the whole ship and keep everything highly illegal just because the MiLegalize bill doesn't completely satisfy you? Being that Abrogate isn't in competition, there's no reason you can't pass MiLegalize and then continue working towards a bill like Abrogate down the road if it doesn't (and it won't) get the signatures it needs now.

Do you take issue with how and why we got MMFLA rather than MI Legalize in 2016? Is it not the same group of people that stand to profit from both? Do you take issue with that group throwing the founding MMMA soldiers (caregivers) under the bus to move onto a "better class" of clients and finally "get things done"?

MMMA was supported by MCCC, which includes politicians and lobbyists, just like the groups you are arguing against. It was also supported by MPP and NORML. It wasn't a grassroots initiative as you imply ("founding mmma soldiers"). Last I checked, MMFLA doesn't make being a caregiver illegal, and neither does the MiLegalize language. And we aren't discussing MMMA/MMFLA here, we are discussing Abrogate and MiLegalize. Stop changing the topic to distract away from the points being raised.

 

[TheMan13]

This has become an exercise in ignorance.

We haven't been talking about Abrogate vs MI Legalize as policy here. We have been talking about your characterization of Tim (and now me) and how you believe that is bad for our community. I've asked you a ton of leading questions directly aimed at exposing the characters, costs and harm behind MI Legalize and you repeatedly refuse to bite like they do not even exist. "Stop changing the topic to distract away from the points being raised." SMH

I'm concerned about the integrity (aka conflict of interest) of those behind MI Legalize and find your criticism of Tim's personality/passion ridiculous. What exactly does Tim seek to gain personally from all of his work with Abrogate

It's long past due that we return integrity to our rule of law. Laws by and for the People, not laws by and for the lawyers, lobbyists, politicians and their business interests. The latter is not good for us regardless of how it is framed. Regulatory capture is a true threat to our democracy IMHO

 

[Sureshot2]

This has become an exercise in ignorance.

We haven't been talking about Abrogate vs MI Legalize as policy here. We have been talking about your characterization of Tim (and now me) and how you believe that is bad for our community. I've asked you a ton of leading questions directly aimed at exposing the characters, costs and harm behind MI Legalize and you repeatedly refuse to bite like they do not even exist. "Stop changing the topic to distract away from the points being raised." SMH

I'm concerned about the integrity (aka conflict of interest) of those behind MI Legalize and find your criticism of Tim's personality/passion ridiculous. What exactly does Tim seek to gain personally from all of his work with Abrogate

It's long past due that we return integrity to our rule of law. Laws by and for the People, not laws by and for the lawyers, lobbyists, politicians and their business interests. The latter is not good for us regardless of how it is framed. Regulatory capture is a true threat to our democracy IMHO

Lmao. I literally went quote by quote and answered all your questions, as I have in the past. It is you that completely ignores the points myself and others raise, as usual.

I'm starting to think you don't actually read people's posts except for maybe the first and last sentence. Every single reply of yours has been the usual "regulatory capture this, politicians and layers that, leave Tim alone". I have done my best to answer all your points as thorough as possible, and every time, you reply back ignoring everything I said and start a new rant about big gov, politics and Tim's morals.

 

[Norby Grown]

So you're not against Milegalize you are just against the people behind it, what it will cost and teh harm it will do? Geesh.
So we have a shitty law and one that doesn't stand a chance. Umm let's see? Why not keep preaching how shitty the one that stands a chance is? Ya, that'll help the community!

I'm against regulatory capture too, let's start a bill specifically on that. What other boards are you on preaching that you're against regulatory capture that is politically active. Or is it just MJ that you are focusing on at this point?

This has become an exercise in ignorance.

We haven't been talking about Abrogate vs MI Legalize as policy here. We have been talking about your characterization of Tim (and now me) and how you believe that is bad for our community. I've asked you a ton of leading questions directly aimed at exposing the characters, costs and harm behind MI Legalize and you repeatedly refuse to bite like they do not even exist. "Stop changing the topic to distract away from the points being raised." SMH

 

[TheMan13]

 

[pergamum362]

Seems one could say the very same thing you are saying about bashing of milegalize, and apply it to your comments about abrogate?...ironic.

 

[Norby Grown]

Not really. At least I, if not we, are only bitching about the leader of abrogate constantly comparing abrogate to milegalize and putting down milegalize in teh comparison(only legal till it's not) and the abrogate crowd constantly bashing milegalize with lies about what it will accomplish.
No one on the board of mpp or milegalize are comparing, no one putting down abrogate. The only thing I have mentioned is that milegalize is going to get on the ballot and there is no status on abrogate and the chances of them making sigs or the vote is small.
I'd LOVE it if abrogate made it. But just in case it doesn't maybe not bash milegalize so much considering you're playing right into Shuette and Snyders hands. They'd love it if neither bill makes it.

 

[Sureshot2]

Not really. At least I, if not we, are only bitching about the leader of abrogate constantly comparing abrogate to milegalize and putting down milegalize in teh comparison(only legal till it's not) and the abrogate crowd constantly bashing milegalize with lies about what it will accomplish.
No one on the board of mpp or milegalize are comparing, no one putting down abrogate. The only thing I have mentioned is that milegalize is going to get on the ballot and there is no status on abrogate and the chances of them making sigs or the vote is small.
I'd LOVE it if abrogate made it. But just in case it doesn't maybe not bash milegalize so much considering you're playing right into Shuette and Snyders hands. They'd love it if neither bill makes it.

This 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[TheMan13]

Neither one of you tools have a clue who is behind MI Legalize, what they've done or what they're doing. That's the problem with your criticism of the folks behind Abrogate ...

 

[Norby Grown]

You're right. All I have to go on by them is the bill and I think it will improve things. Tim and you are a bit more vocal. I don't have to know about the people behind milegalize to criticize what you and Tim are openly saying. The bill speaks for itself as an improvement over the MMMA. The folks behind Milegalize aren't criticizing abrogate. If they were I'd be going after them too.

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

Neither one of you tools have a clue who is behind MI Legalize, what they've done or what they're doing ...

cant stop ...

You're right. All I have to go on by them is the bill and I think it will improve things...

https://www.rollitup.org/t/sad-day.952362/