Could I do better? If so where

[Realbax]

HI all. I wasn' sure if this was the right place as I am a nwbie but this is definitely a setup question. My question is this: what is the max plant number I can maximize yeilds from?
I recently completed my first grow. I went with 3 strains. Exodus cheese, chocolope kush and Skywalker kush. I lost 1 plant so I had 5 initially in bloom the room at 5bweeks I added 3 more. My yield from the first 5 is 144 gr. Dried. The bloom room is as follows:
4'x3.5' with 8' ceiling
Lined with black and white 6mil poly sheeting
1 Exhale homegrown co2 bag
Medium sized fan for circulation
Fed with a drip system
Using full line of botanicare pro except silica blast and add molasses to top it off
48" Sylvania gro-lux t12 80 watts wide spectrum
Meizhi reflector series 450w led full light spectrum 11595 lumens x2
60w Sylvania gro-lux cfl .

Veg room;
4' x 1.5' 8' ceiling
White paint
Botanicare again
48" Sylvania gro-lux t12 80 watts wide spectrum
60w Sylvania gro-lux cfl x2

So what'sthe magic number? I've tried a few different attempts to calculate this out but it alludes me. Any suggestions on how to maximize the space would be appreciated. I'm looking into a couple of inexpensive upgrades or additions so any ideas there would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

 

[Jypsy Dog]

144 grams= 5 oz's / 5= 1oz per plant.
I would work on LST training and plant management. You need to get better single plant #'s.

 

[Realbax]

144 grams= 5 oz's / 5= 1oz per plant.
I would work on LST training and plant management. You need to get better single plant #'s.

Would you say its just a matter of better lst or could the setup be tweaked to see improvements?

 

[Realbax]

144 grams= 5 oz's / 5= 1oz per plant.
I would work on LST training and plant management. You need to get better single plant #'s.

Also what would you say in regards to plant # ? What would be my max # of plants?

 

[raggyb]

I respond without expertise, just ideas. Maybe Watts seem ok for flower room size, but maybe more in veg to get them a fuller start. I thing 1 o per cured isn't bad for that watt. Plant no depends if you train or top or not. You could try 9 fems and don't top at all vs. try 1 fem the next time and train it for longer. You have to factor in time also.

 

[Jypsy Dog]

Also what would you say in regards to plant # ? What would be my max # of plants?

My response was that you need to get more out of your plants. You need to get 5 oz's out of just one plant first. Then add on. I can pull 5 from a bag seed with CFL's.

 

[Tyleb173rd]

How did you lose a plant?

 

[coreywebster]

First and foremost, more light. Your almost running a 4x4 and you would want more light. A 600w hps which suits a 4x4 puts out 90'000 lumens. Your running at 23'000 plus some extra from the small lamps.

I grow LED so I'm not going to say go out and buy a HPS but go out and buy something that will light up that space better, HPS, quality LED whatever you want.
You don't mention extraction or air exchange, but do mention co2 bags, which may add co2 but probably not that well. Good air exchange is important, or at least a solid level of co2 consistently.
You don't mention temps, or rh so no idea what those are.

To sum up, get your environment spot on first and second start thinking about training and veg time to maximise your yield or increase plant count, you could for example fit 16 1oz plants in there or 4 plants and pull 6oz plus per plant.
No point running this nutrient or that until you have things dialled in properly.

 

[Realbax]

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated. I'm currently looking into adding another led. I'm having a bit of trouble deciding on something in my budget. At max I have 4- 500 to invest so I was going to go all in on a light upgrade. As far as far as circulation I have a 4" intake from the cold room so it fresh with the co2 bag. Temps are 25 - 27 °c during the day and 20 -22°c at night. Rh is 38 to 45ish. I lost the plant to what I'm pretty sure was rootrot. I've added a raised grated floor to keep the containers warmer and better circulation. Seems to have worked. So light seems be a unanimous vote to get the first upgrade. Any suggestions based on my limited budget? I would really like to stay with led as with other lights there's additional venting heat etc. With led it's a one time expense with savings over time and less b.s

 

[raggyb]

I wish I could help with the LEDs. But corey is making sense and sounds like he knows about that one you got. I think you got the right direction to invest the bulk of your budget on as great a light as you can get. We can skimp on other things but not the light.

 

[coreywebster]

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated. I'm currently looking into adding another led. I'm having a bit of trouble deciding on something in my budget. At max I have 4- 500 to invest so I was going to go all in on a light upgrade. As far as far as circulation I have a 4" intake from the cold room so it fresh with the co2 bag. Temps are 25 - 27 °c during the day and 20 -22°c at night. Rh is 38 to 45ish. I lost the plant to what I'm pretty sure was rootrot. I've added a raised grated floor to keep the containers warmer and better circulation. Seems to have worked. So light seems be a unanimous vote to get the first upgrade. Any suggestions based on my limited budget? I would really like to stay with led as with other lights there's additional venting heat etc. With led it's a one time expense with savings over time and less b.s

The LED market is flooded with average to crap lights, especially amazon. But there are some cracking units available these days.
Most of us use COB or strips or boards.
I have a COB set up that I built myself but I also have 2x 260w Quantum board kits. Each kit covers a 4x2 or a 3x3 so if I were in your shoes I would buy one of those and cover 2x4 of your space and use your other LEDs to fill out the rest. Further down the line replace the other lights.
https://growerslights.com/collections/horticulture-lighting-group/products/horticulture-lighting-group-260-watt-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=42245771978

Or its a bit over your budget but there is also this
https://growerslights.com/collections/horticulture-lighting-group/products/horticulture-lighting-group-600h-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=42943942538

These both use very efficient Samsung diodes , its white light so you get a better spectrum across the whole range and plants love them, plus because they are efficient 260w is about the same as 500w of hps. The HLG 600 is 2.33 umol/j and will beat a 1000w hps.

They are very popular especially on here, there are a few threads on here to have a look at. I have been using them a while now and I haven't pulled less than 1.5lb dried and cured from a 4x4 space since I switched from HPS. I have just completed another crop and its looking like 2lb from 520w ( 570w at the wall) which is crazy by anyones standards.

Don't let the fact they are a kit put you off. They literally take 5min to put together and hang, its as simple as screwing 4 screws and wiring a plug.

Other options are timbergrowlights, johnsongrowlights for COB fixtures, but the best way to go COB is DIY and not everyone is comfortable building one from scratch, it can seem overwhelming but once you get your head round matching drivers to COBs its pretty simple.
Still though Quantum boards are hard to beat and pretty much the best thing available bar maybe ChilLED but they are both on the same level of efficiency.

Anyhow enough about lighting. It doesn't sound like your environment is poor so I would suggest looking at either how to train a low number of plants to fill out your space or how to fill your space with lots of plants.
Its just a case of long veg with low plant count Vs short veg with High plant count. Both will do the same, its just what you find easier. I like 4 plants per 4x4 with 5-7 weeks veg from clone. From seed you would add a few more weeks. But you could go with 16 plants 12/12 from seed and might hit 1lb or 16 plants with 2 weeks veg and hit a bit over 1LB..
I would look at lower plant count and training methods such as Mainlining, topping, LST, super cropping or Scrog. If you want really high plant counts you could look at Sea of Green but that's very high plant count and a lot of pissing about with so many clones.
The key is to find a way to fill your space that suits you best and light that space up well and at the same time feed properly without overdoing it and maintain healthy plants.

Anyhow what ever you decide I'm sure you will be improving on your last crop soon... Take it easy.

EDIT, If you want to know more about DIY LEDs there are lots of threads on here but the easiest place to learn is by checking out GrowMau5 on youtube

 

[jemstone]

Yes increase your flower lights. You can fit 36 1gallon pots in a 3x3 or 9 5gallon. You can get a used HID light for cheap. With a 4-500 budget for a light I would definitely buy used then go on a mini vacation, buy myself a stake or lapdance from twins at the local strip club.

I think lst and other similar methods take too much time in veg to cover the light canopy. 5-7 weeks of veg time? Thats a lot on the ebill and can pull a full flower in that time. Having 2 harvests a year seems a huge waste of time. The more plants the better IMO. It's better to have the canopy over crowded and to be able to remove the weaker plants than to have to listen to yourself for 7-9 weeks saying you wish you had more.

 

[Realbax]

Thanks for the response. I checked out a few of the YouTube videos and they'r very informative. One question: if I pick up one of these kits what spectrum would I go with? I didn't really think straight white light was used much hence all the led marketing towards full spectrum.

 

[coreywebster]

Thanks for the response. I checked out a few of the YouTube videos and they'r very informative. One question: if I pick up one of these kits what spectrum would I go with? I didn't really think straight white light was used much hence all the led marketing towards full spectrum.

3000k or 3500k is a good for all stages of growth.
White lights where its at these days, but the reason all these lights you see on amazon or ebay still use targeted spectrums is 1 because those types of diodes are cheap as chips, like a few cents and 2 because they have millions in stock to use up and 3 because they still think along the lines of old lighting data, ie they think plants don't use all the other parts of the spectrum such as greens for example. They use a chlorophyll A and B peak charts to carry on with that belief but there is more to plant growth than just chlorophyll.

 

[raggyb]

...
Or its a bit over your budget but there is also this
https://growerslights.com/collections/horticulture-lighting-group/products/horticulture-lighting-group-600h-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=42943942538

So that Quantum would pay for itself in electric savings alone after about 2 years use. Compared to a 1000W HPS. Pretty compelling.

 

[Flowki]

A 4inch fan may struggle after you upgrade lights, especially when summer hits. Upgrade to a cheap dual setting 6 inch fan for now.

You mentioned roots getting cold and you need to get on top of that warning. Look into something like this controller as it will regulate min/max temps and truly is ideal for smaller setups rather than the more expensive volt step controllers. If you don't already have one, buy a tubular frost protection heater to plug into the other controller socket. They slide in between the pots nicely, are only around 125W but will keep the area warm enough during lights off in use with the controller. The only thing left for you to worry about is humidity. I don't know how to cover that in such a small space so hopefully somebody else can give tips on it.

The above is priority don't ignore it. After that look into cob or cmh. Personal opinion, given the time of year you'd be better off getting a cmh with a cheap hood. The directional heat from the light/ballast + the above temp controller will keep your roots warm and save a lot on heating. The out take fan will kick in enough to keep co2 levels refreshed. Just estimating but with your space/location and assuming above setup, you'd probably have 15-20 min intervals of fan off then a few min (dual speed fan low setting) of fan on. During the summer then you can look into cobs and since you already have a cmh, you can easily swap them out for the seasons. You can ofc go directly into cob if you have the funds after climate upgrades.

Next biggest tip, use coco if not already.

Lastly is growing style. You have a 4x4 but I'd personally call it a 3x3. It's nice to keep a small gap between the plants and walls for airflow of heat/humidity. But, you can easily fit four 5gal pots into a 3x3. Top them all early once, then again around a week or two later. Trim them to remain in the 3x3 area and not over crowd, flip when they are about 1.5 foot tall. After stretch the upper most canopy will fill into the 4x4 area but it won't be dense enough to completely block air flow.

If you get the climate controller and need any setup details send me a pm.

 

[Flowki]

So that Quantum would pay for itself in electric savings alone after about 2 years use. Compared to a 1000W HPS. Pretty compelling.

A shit load of that ''efficiency'' goes down the drain by having to up heater usage to retain the canopy/root temps you got under hps. In summer hps will force fans to run on higher setting but that still uses less over all electric than blasting heaters in the winter with cob/led.

Yes W for W of lighting hps is less efficient but in the bigger picture the efficiency gap is not as huge as people think. Unless you live in a country with mild winters perhaps.

 

[raggyb]

A shit load of that ''efficiency'' goes down the drain by having to up heater usage to retain the canopy/root temps you got under hps. In summer hps will force fans to run on higher setting but that still uses less over all electric than blasting heaters in the winter with cob/led.

Yes W for W of lighting hps is less efficient but in the bigger picture the efficiency gap is not as huge as people think. Unless you live in a country with mild winters perhaps.

I hear you on the heating cost. But in summer I was not too keen on temps getting over 76 either. So I'm thinking you either need A/C in the summer or Heat in the winter. Heat's a lot of energy too but it's usually easier than cooling. So I think LEDs would be an advantage in summer, and in my goofy set up possibly I could get temps close to right without A/C. Not sure if that's you're sitch but it is a lot to think about.

 

[Flowki]

I hear you on the heating cost. But in summer I was not too keen on temps getting over 76 either. So I'm thinking you either need A/C in the summer or Heat in the winter. Heat's a lot of energy too but it's usually easier than cooling. So I think LEDs would be an advantage in summer, and in my goofy set up possibly I could get temps close to right without A/C. Not sure if that's you're sitch but it is a lot to think about.

A few month back I was reading of a guy who runs upper 80 temps in summer and against popular temp settings around here, gets better yields that time of year. If it's true it may be linked to vpd and co2 uptake. I'm just speculating from the fact he reported having higher than usual natural co2 levels. He also had good plant spacing and I think that hugely aids co2 uptake along with reducing rot potential. It's something that has interested me ever since as running higher temp, co2 levels permitting, could reduce W cost in summer, or avoid dimming/shutting off some lighting. However the savings would depend on W spent chasing humidity levels in a constant air flow setting. I also wish to hell I could remember where I read it so I can find out what natural co2 levels he had.

Or it could be completely wrong, still trying to find first hand info under those particular conditions. The benefits of sealed co2 have already been shown so it doesn't seem that far fetched. The questionable part is if it does work yet ambient co2 levels are not high enough, it may be cheaper to let the temps rise and use a small constant amount of co2 bottle over keeping temps down with ac.

Bit of a thread hijack sorry op.

 

[raggyb]

A few month back I was reading of a guy who runs upper 80 temps in summer and against popular temp settings around here, gets better yields that time of year. If it's true it may be linked to vpd and co2 uptake. I'm just speculating from the fact he reported having higher than usual natural co2 levels. He also had good plant spacing and I think that hugely aids co2 uptake along with reducing rot potential. It's something that has interested me ever since as running higher temp, co2 levels permitting, could reduce W cost in summer, or avoid dimming/shutting off some lighting. However the savings would depend on W spent chasing humidity levels in a constant air flow setting. I also wish to hell I could remember where I read it so I can find out what natural co2 levels he had.

Or it could be completely wrong, still trying to find first hand info under those particular conditions. The benefits of sealed co2 have already been shown so it doesn't seem that far fetched. The questionable part is if it does work yet ambient co2 levels are not high enough, it may be cheaper to let the temps rise and use a small constant amount of co2 bottle over keeping temps down with ac.

Bit of a thread hijack sorry op.

Yeah sorry if I hijacked the thread too! This is some complicated shit for a weed! My struggle with summer temp was also high humidity and the dehumidifier would heat up the room even more. So I think like 85/86 topos but not measured at the canopy. My plants seemed stressed. And I'm not sure if it's coincidence but all 3 of the regs I planted became males. The others were reveg and 1 fem and came out ok. And on top of that I got a spider mites in late flower but managed it. All could have been exacerbated by high heat high humidity. Happen to have a little CO2 meter but I wasn't really paying attention to the levels. I only got it because I was wondering if the gas boiler in the room was adding any Co2. Didn't seem to be.