Question on breeding for personal use (F1 vs F2)

[Skylan01]

Been experimenting over the past few years trying to find high CBD strains that worked for me. My favorite so far has been critical cure and critical mass by (I think) Barnys farm. Unfortunately they only come in fem and I'm not interested in trying to use colloidal silver to create more.

Are these strains stabilized or would they be considered F1?

I have some regular pennywise by TGA that I was thinking of using to cross with the critical cure / mass fems that I have left over but I'm really confused whether I'm going to end up with F1 or F2 seeds. I'd like to avoid creating F2 seeds with huge variations because I just do small grows for personal use.

More generally, how do you know if the strains you buy from breeders are actually stabilized or not?

 

[Skylan01]

Nothing?

 

[farmerfischer]

If they were feminized seeds then they are S1's. True s1's have hardly any variation in phenotypes so in essence they are stable.. fem seeds produced from more then one mother of the same strain but different phenos will produce unstable female plants .. meaning several variations in phenos.. you really have to ask the producer of the seeds on how they were made..
Now to the question.. if you cross the two with each other they will be f1 s1 hybrids.. for example if I cross one plant with a different plant .. they will be f1's the offspring bred back on them self's will be f2's .. there's a whole lot to learn.. like cubing' squaring and back crossing. If you want to learn about this stuff I would suggest you read about the hardy wineburg model of equilibrium.. it will help you understand the frequency of phenos and genos in crossing strains and hybrids..

 

[Skylan01]

If they were feminized seeds then they are S1's. True s1's have hardly any variation in phenotypes so in essence they are stable.. fem seeds produced from more then one mother of the same strain but different phenos will produce unstable female plants .. meaning several variations in phenos.. you really have to ask the producer of the seeds on how they were made..
Now to the question.. if you cross the two with each other they will be f1 s1 hybrids.. for example if I cross one plant with a different plant .. they will be f1's the offspring bred back on them self's will be f2's .. there's a whole lot to learn.. like cubing' squaring and back crossing. If you want to learn about this stuff I would suggest you read about the hardy wineburg model of equilibrium.. it will help you understand the frequency of phenos and genos in crossing strains and hybrids..

Thanks, it sounds like I'm trying to over-simplify things a bit. From what I've read there's quite a lot of work involved in stabilizing a strain which leads me to suspect that a lot of breeders aren't. I really just wanted to make my own seeds and not have to worry about relying on vendors with the uncertain future of cannabis from a political standpoint. But I also don t want to have to grow 50 plants to find a good pheno since I'm really limited to 4 plants a cycle.

 

[farmerfischer]

Yeah.. limited to only four plants would make it a big pain in the ass .. and yes alot of breeders are not stabilizing their "strains" they pass off f1 polyhybrids as NEW "strains" and let their costumers fish through the countless phenos.. it takes several grows/season's to get any uniformity in the offspring through back crossing and that's if a stable stock was used.. like when using landraces ...

 

[Richard Drysift]

There is a lot of work involved in breeding stable strains but you certainly do not need to pheno hunt just to make your own seed stock. As I understand it most regular seeds from reputable breeders are relatively stable. It is when you back cross to make a totally new strain that you wind up with unstable genetics.
If you just want seeds for future grows pop a few of those penny wise beans or choose another strain you already know to be stable; preferably grown from reg seeds. Then select a male out of those to cross with your other plants. Doesn't have to be complicated unless you plan to sell the seeds or make a name for yourself in breeding circles.
During the summer I selected a Candyman Haze male based mainly on his stink and crossed it via a paintbrush with another CMH female along with all of my fave strains that were blooming at the time. Now I got seeds for years; was totally worth the effort.

 

[farmerfischer]

It is when you back cross to make a totally new strain that you wind up with unstable genetics.

This is wrong.. I'm not picking on you,,but this is just wrong.. backcrossing is inbreeding.. it's done to stabilize the traits the grower is seeking.. out breeding is just taking one known strains crossing it with another creating a hybrid of the two strains.. the hybrid isn't a strain..(yet) to make it a true strain you have to stabilize it through backcrossing..

 

[Richard Drysift]

Ok. Whatever it's called I know inbreeding creates unstable genetics. So I've made some "hybrids" not strains that's fine I don't care. I'm not a "real" breeder and true strains was never my goal. I'm saying if the OP wants some seed for future grows then crossing plant A with plant B works just fine. You do not have to start a pheno hunt just to get more beans. I'm happy with weed I get from the crosses I've made so that's all that matters to me.

 

[farmerfischer]

Ok. Whatever it's called I know inbreeding creates unstable genetics. So I've made some "hybrids" not strains that's fine I don't care. I'm not a "real" breeder and true strains was never my goal. I'm saying if the OP wants some seed for future grows then crossing plant A with plant B works just fine. You do not have to start a pheno hunt just to get more beans. I'm happy with weed I get from the crosses I've made so that's all that matters to me.

Right on.. just want to say inbreeding doesn't cause problems until maybe 50 generations at which point most breeders will out breed to regain vigger of growth and maybe potency.. then it's back to inbreeding to stabilize..

 

[Chunky Stool]

This is wrong.. I'm not picking on you,,but this is just wrong.. backcrossing is inbreeding.. it's done to stabilize the traits the grower is seeking.. out breeding is just taking one known strains crossing it with another creating a hybrid of the two strains.. the hybrid isn't a strain..(yet) to make it a true strain you have to stabilize it through backcrossing..

I think some seeds are marketed at pheno hunters who are going to find a keeper, then run clones. Gives them more variety in the same gene pool.
Ever heard of greenpoint?

 

[farmerfischer]

I'm saying if the OP wants some seed for future grows then crossing plant A with plant B works just fine.

Yes .. but the offspring will have every expression between the two strains imaginable..

 

[farmerfischer]

I think some seeds are marketed at pheno hunters who are going to find a keeper, then run clones. Gives them more variety in the same gene pool.
Ever heard of greenpoint?

Yes... F1 hybrids are what your referring to

 

[NanoGadget]

When I was running a bigger setup I loved F1s. Hunting is so satisfying when you find that unicorn pheno. Now that I'm running a much smaller setup I love me some stable genetics. I don't have the room or the plant count to hunt these days so if I find a keeper pheno I pull clones immediately. I have one in flower right now that I pulled clones off of that I think will be producing my meds for at least the next year or two.

 

[Richard Drysift]

Yes .. but the offspring will have every expression between the two strains imaginable..

How is that a problem? It's true that all these plants are different but I am not going back to ordering seeds again; this saves me way too much money. So I will select a few mothers and clone from there...

 

[farmerfischer]

Its not a problem if you have time and space.. some people prefer it.. I agree with you on not having to spend a bunch of money on seeds when you can easily make them your self... I just was explaining it to the o.p. the difference in f1s vs f2s .. if he has an interest to make his own, I would read the hardy-wineburg model of genetic equilibrium.. it will help him understand what's all involved.. it's real easy to chunk pollen and make a unstable hybrid..but to gain stability in his cross he's going to have to understand the frequency of genos,phenos and the percentage of what appears from batch to batch

 

[Cold$moke]

First thing to do is find BREEDING STOCK. Thats worth breeding.

I e youll have to pop some beans to find winners

Then you can breed with them ....

And you can practice your chucks with whatever you want but id pick wichever genetics you want and try and get a few packs of each then go hunting for the winners

At least thats what i plan on

 

[farmerfischer]

First thing to do is find BREEDING STOCK. Thats worth breeding.

I e youll have to pop some beans to find winners

Then you can breed with them ....

And you can practice your chucks with whatever you want but id pick wichever genetics you want and try and get a few packs of each then go hunting for the winners

At least thats what i plan on

Yes.. like a landrace indica's (Afghans )or landrace Sativa's will make it much easier.. or any tbl or ibl.

 

[Cold$moke]

Yes.. like a landrace indica's (Afghans )or landrace Sativa's will make it much easier.. or any tbl or ibl.

Oh im sure ill be asking for your genetic knowledge soon give me a few weeks lol

 

[NanoGadget]

Almost every keeper I've ever cloned has had landrace genetics.. You just can't beat the stability of strains that existed in isolation for long periods of time.