Using 4 citi 1212 3000k to Veg seedlings - not going well...

[Maersk]

@VegasWinner Have dimmed the cobs, will see if it has an effect

 

[ChefKimbo]

I used 1 Citi 1212 5000k in a 2x1.5, about 35 inches above the plants.
Only the clone in the middle grew well. The others were stunted with thin stems and 3 had the weird leaves like I posted before. I had read somewhere that some drivers can cause the cob to flicker and could effect the plants. I had used a driver from led panel to power the cob, could that be the cause?

 

[Maersk]

@ChefKimbo I doubt it is the driver, I think its more likely to be from the closeness or intensity of the light...

That one big plant above looks healthy, however I can see some of those smaller seedlings already have deformed twisted leaves... just like mine.

I have also moved mine further away, and will now see if any problems correct themselves or new growth isnt effected.

 

[ChefKimbo]

Yes that is a trainwreck clone that did very well directly under the light. The others were 1 week old seedlings at that point. I topped them after 4 weeks, and the new growth came out like that. I'm still not sure if it was the light or just the reaction the plants had to the early topping. Never had a problem topping plants at 4 weeks prior to this. It was the thin stems that led me to believe the light maybe the problem. They pretty much stopped growing for awhile after the topping, but the roots never stopped growing.

 

[Maersk]

@ChefKimbo I have vegged under 600W MH, 250W CFL, and some other mixtures, and havnt encountered the deformation on this scale - so because of this im inclined to believe it is something to do with the LED...

I have taken some of the really deformed ones out of the small pots to check the roots, and surprisingly like you said the roots are still developing and look healthy... I wanted to check the roots for overwatering issues, but the soil below was dry.

The others were 1 week old seedlings at that point. I topped them after 4 weeks, and the new growth came out like that.

What do you mean here? the new growth came out like the big one? or continued looking deformed?

 

[nonamedman420]

was this problem ever discovered and fixed? i'm very interested in the answer to the problem i saw the same with a plant and raising the light AND lowering the power helped tremendously fwiw.

 

[Kkesu]

Sounds like light being too close as others have said, although for them coming out twisted I had an issue like that but it was a mag deficiency and after I upped it the growth returned to normal

 

[Slinging PAR]

was this problem ever discovered and fixed? i'm very interested in the answer to the problem i saw the same with a plant and raising the light AND lowering the power helped tremendously fwiw.

Too much light. Seedlings can only handle 5-20'ish DLI after that they go all strange.

This is actually where blurples are a better choice than high efficiency white. Once able to handle more light, move them back under the white light and after a few days of adjustment, they will be on their way.

 

[nonamedman420]

Too much light. Seedlings can only handle 5-20'ish DLI after that they go all strange.

This is actually where blurples are a better choice than high efficiency white. Once able to handle more light, move them back under the white light and after a few days of adjustment, they will be on their way.

i'm good in math, but the DLI isn't something i've figured out yet for my setup, as i have no par meter. only a lux meter, but not sure on it's accuracy. it's 4xcitizen 1212's 3000k 90cri. hlg 185 c1400b. i have the citicalculator and diycobcalculator .jar files from here, but are they accurate? and, do the numbers represent a certain distance from cobs? like 12' only. the plants are 3ft from cobs, no lenses. made a light bar of sorts, each 1 foot apart from center. honestly having a little trouble figuring what wattage i should set them at, and distance from canopy. seems the node spacing almost disappears when too close, move it a little away and they wanna stretch. i'll figure it out. helping a friend who can't physically do it, so i want to help this person. i want nothing other than to help them, i don't expect anything but a thank you. seriously. this is why i wanna do it right. if it were for me, i wouldn't care so much. but this person is too poor to afford to pay for lights, nutes, etc... never mind street prices for meds.

 

[skoomd]

i'm good in math, but the DLI isn't something i've figured out yet for my setup, as i have no par meter. only a lux meter, but not sure on it's accuracy. it's 4xcitizen 1212's 3000k 90cri. hlg 185 c1400b. i have the citicalculator and diycobcalculator .jar files from here, but are they accurate? and, do the numbers represent a certain distance from cobs? like 12' only. the plants are 3ft from cobs, no lenses. made a light bar of sorts, each 1 foot apart from center. honestly having a little trouble figuring what wattage i should set them at, and distance from canopy. seems the node spacing almost disappears when too close, move it a little away and they wanna stretch. i'll figure it out. helping a friend who can't physically do it, so i want to help this person. i want nothing other than to help them, i don't expect anything but a thank you. seriously. this is why i wanna do it right. if it were for me, i wouldn't care so much. but this person is too poor to afford to pay for lights, nutes, etc... never mind street prices for meds.

Your lux meter is probably fine. Use THIS thread to convert your COB lux to micomoles. I am not using COBs myself, but my plant is vegging beautifully under samsung F series LED strips placed about 36" above the plant on full power. It is about 500 PPFD at that distance. My plant drooped a little bit when I was running 24/0 but on 18/6 it is looking perfect!

 

[nonamedman420]

Your lux meter is probably fine. Use THIS thread to convert your COB lux to micomoles. I am not using COBs myself, but my plant is vegging beautifully under samsung F series LED strips placed about 36" above the plant on full power. It is about 500 PPFD at that distance. My plant drooped a little bit when I was running 24/0 but on 18/6 it is looking perfect!

nice. thanks for the info.

 

[GroErr]

I'm using Citi 5700k/90cri for the initial couple of weeks before they're up-potted and moved to Citi 4000k/90cri for vegging. These below were 4 weeks from seed, if anything they've sped up my veg vs. the blurples I was using. There's something going on in there, light height could be the issue. I keep them ~24-30" from the canopy throughout veg.

 

[Slinging PAR]

i'm good in math, but the DLI isn't something i've figured out yet for my setup, as i have no par meter. only a lux meter, but not sure on it's accuracy. it's 4xcitizen 1212's 3000k 90cri. hlg 185 c1400b. i have the citicalculator and diycobcalculator .jar files from here, but are they accurate? and, do the numbers represent a certain distance from cobs? like 12' only. the plants are 3ft from cobs, no lenses. made a light bar of sorts, each 1 foot apart from center. honestly having a little trouble figuring what wattage i should set them at, and distance from canopy. seems the node spacing almost disappears when too close, move it a little away and they wanna stretch. i'll figure it out. helping a friend who can't physically do it, so i want to help this person. i want nothing other than to help them, i don't expect anything but a thank you. seriously. this is why i wanna do it right. if it were for me, i wouldn't care so much. but this person is too poor to afford to pay for lights, nutes, etc... never mind street prices for meds.

Check some of my posts in other threads, I listed out DLI amounts for different ppfd/hour measurements. Basically it is 275 ppfd for one hour to get 1 DLI. 12 hours of 275 ppfd net you 12 DLI. Do get a PAR meter, the lux conversions can be way off.

FYI, short bushy plants come with their own problems, mainly with mold and other pests. Air flow is important which is why using all of your space to spread out the leaves is a good idea.

I'm using Citi 5700k/90cri for the initial couple of weeks before they're up-potted and moved to Citi 4000k/90cri for vegging. These below were 4 weeks from seed, if anything they've sped up my veg vs. the blurples I was using. There's something going on in there, light height could be the issue. I keep them ~24-30" from the canopy throughout veg.

View attachment 4127549

I got some burples tuned to run lower (and much cooler) so that seedlings can grow up from about 50 ppfd all the way up to 2k touching the acrylic cover on the fixture. Once they get all squishy under the blurple, they go out into the flower chambers.

For me it works best. White LED is great once the plants can handle it but until then, it is nail biting to watch them go all strange with the leaf structure. I know we are hard on blurples but they do have some uses. They are also good for plant recovery if you messed up something else, like ph.

 

[skoomd]

Check some of my posts in other threads, I listed out DLI amounts for different ppfd/hour measurements. Basically it is 275 ppfd for one hour to get 1 DLI. 12 hours of 275 ppfd net you 12 DLI. Do get a PAR meter, the lux conversions can be way off.

FYI, short bushy plants come with their own problems, mainly with mold and other pests. Air flow is important which is why using all of your space to spread out the leaves is a good idea.




I got some burples tuned to run lower (and much cooler) so that seedlings can grow up from about 50 ppfd all the way up to 2k touching the acrylic cover on the fixture. Once they get all squishy under the blurple, they go out into the flower chambers.

For me it works best. White LED is great once the plants can handle it but until then, it is nail biting to watch them go all strange with the leaf structure. I know we are hard on blurples but they do have some uses. They are also good for plant recovery if you messed up something else, like ph.

Lux conversions way off? I dont know about that. The lux conversions on steven's thread are taken from sphere tests. They line up damn beautifully from what i'd expect from my light.

And I would digress with all of this leaf structure glitchery with white LEDs. My plant growing under my samsung strips is looking better than anything I saw under HPS and blurples. Just my experience though, I can understand others having different experiences.

 

[Slinging PAR]

Lux conversions way off? I dont know about that. The lux conversions on steven's thread are taken from sphere tests. They line up damn beautifully from what i'd expect from my light.

And I would digress with all of this leaf structure glitchery with white LEDs. My plant growing under my samsung strips is looking better than anything I saw under HPS and blurples. Just my experience though, I can understand others having different experiences.

Yeah they are significantly off. The problem is that lux is a measure of light energy with a bias towards the 550nm green range. PAR is a simple photon count. Totally different things. Too many variables involved that introduce margins of error putting it way out. For example, under driving will shift more to red thus throwing the conversion number out of range.

It is just easier to use the right tool for the job.

As for leaf structure morphology going all funky, well there are quite a few examples of it. I know I have experienced it when seedlings are exposed to anything over 200 ppfd or 20 DLI. What I did find is that they were most responsive to 50 ppfd and could handle more as they grew. Based on that, I could have used standard a19/e37 bulbs or even cfls to get them to a decent size but decided to modify some old fixtures that made better use of space.

My blurples are running 1/4-1/3rd power of what they originally were set to and deliver those ppfd numbers in a small chamber. What little heat they do put out keeps the seedlings warm (25-28c) so it doubles as a small heater. Once again for me it was the right tool for the job.

The other thing I like about the blurples is the dark green leaf color. My thinking is that dark green will absorb more light than light green so more energy is able to be absorbed by the plant when they move under white light. Not sure if it does have a measurable affect on yield but I will say that my plants are always healthy.

If you have unused blurples kicking around just modify them and see for yourself. I also grow other herbs under them quite well so they are multipurpose.

 

[skoomd]

Yeah they are significantly off. The problem is that lux is a measure of light energy with a bias towards the 550nm green range. PAR is a simple photon count. Totally different things. Too many variables involved that introduce margins of error putting it way out. For example, under driving will shift more to red thus throwing the conversion number out of range.

It is just easier to use the right tool for the job.

As for leaf structure morphology going all funky, well there are quite a few examples of it. I know I have experienced it when seedlings are exposed to anything over 200 ppfd or 20 DLI. What I did find is that they were most responsive to 50 ppfd and could handle more as they grew. Based on that, I could have used standard a19/e37 bulbs or even cfls to get them to a decent size but decided to modify some old fixtures that made better use of space.

My blurples are running 1/4-1/3rd power of what they originally were set to and deliver those ppfd numbers in a small chamber. What little heat they do put out keeps the seedlings warm (25-28c) so it doubles as a small heater. Once again for me it was the right tool for the job.

The other thing I like about the blurples is the dark green leaf color. My thinking is that dark green will absorb more light than light green so more energy is able to be absorbed by the plant when they move under white light. Not sure if it does have a measurable affect on yield but I will say that my plants are always healthy.

If you have unused blurples kicking around just modify them and see for yourself. I also grow other herbs under them quite well so they are multipurpose.

Ok gotcha on the lux thing. I still think it will give you very close to the umol output though, for example if I used the 0.014505 rate for 3000k samsung lm561c with 40,000 lux I get 580 umol/s but if I use the 0.014240 for a 3500k CXB3590 i get 569 umol/s. Same with 80 cri vs 90 cri. A few photons isnt going to make a big difference. I think using a subpar PAR meter will give you vastly different results (like the hydrofarm one). Again, the lux conversions im using are taken using an integrating sphere.

As for the leaf morphology, im still not sold on it. I have been exposing my plant to 25-30 DLI since it popped the ground and never noticed anything weird. I have also not seen it under another samsung strip grow I did with a friend with totally difference strains. That is with 3000k/3500k though. I can imagine 4000k+ possibly causing weirdness though, it's just a lot of blue light in those higher K temps. I can also see it happening when not using many light sources (for instance one or two cobs over a 4 sq foot+ space, or spectrum king) because the light is coming in from harsh angles.

However I have noticed the dark green leaves under blurples, and I agree with you on that being beneficial for photosynthesis. This is why I use kelp in my grows as well, because kelp is known to cause darker leaves.

 

[whitebb2727]

Either dim them or raise the light a bit.

I use four 1212s @ 4000k from start to finish. With the lenses off I need to keep them a couple foot above young plants. I get closer as they get bigger.

 

[Slinging PAR]

Ok gotcha on the lux thing. I still think it will give you very close to the umol output though, for example if I used the 0.014505 rate for 3000k samsung lm561c with 40,000 lux I get 580 umol/s but if I use the 0.014240 for a 3500k CXB3590 i get 569 umol/s. Same with 80 cri vs 90 cri. A few photons isnt going to make a big difference. I think using a subpar PAR meter will give you vastly different results (like the hydrofarm one). Again, the lux conversions im using are taken using an integrating sphere.

As for the leaf morphology, im still not sold on it. I have been exposing my plant to 25-30 DLI since it popped the ground and never noticed anything weird. I have also not seen it under another samsung strip grow I did with a friend with totally difference strains. That is with 3000k/3500k though. I can imagine 4000k+ possibly causing weirdness though, it's just a lot of blue light in those higher K temps. I can also see it happening when not using many light sources (for instance one or two cobs over a 4 sq foot+ space, or spectrum king) because the light is coming in from harsh angles.

However I have noticed the dark green leaves under blurples, and I agree with you on that being beneficial for photosynthesis. This is why I use kelp in my grows as well, because kelp is known to cause darker leaves.

You mean subpar as in an Apogee meter? Even with the old sensors it would still be better that trying to convert from lux.

I have both the hydrofarm and licor meters, there is nothing wrong with the hydrofarm. It is used far more than the licor. Plus you can use it to log data over USB and is affordable when available.

Don't be so hung up on a sphere tests unless you know what they are about. They are for comparing different light sources and come with a margin of error. There is performance differences chip to chip and spheres don't take into account environmental factors pertaining to your grow area. That is why a PAR meter is the right tool since it takes a measurement at the spot where the sensor is and that is what a grower should care about. While a manufacturer's claims to ppf values are good for planning, in operation the results can be significantly different.

Plus I would only put faith into test numbers that a top tier manufacturer like Bridgelux has done. They require accurate performance testing within the margins that they publish in order to address liability and therefore have an incentive to have it properly done. Your smaller suppliers don't have the luxury of a full QA/QC department and budget.

 

[Randomblame]

From my observations leaves mainly stay smaller under blurples because of the higher blue part in blurple light(~20%) so chlorophyll is packed tighter. Add some more far-red and reduce blue and the leaves get bigger and their color shifts to a light green. The amount of chlorophyll does not differ so much, it is mainly because it is more densely packed.
White light(also CRI80) contains a higher far-red component, which is essentially the reason why the stature is less compact. It also causes ~2°C higher leaf temperature (along with the green component).

As far as lux meters are concerned, they were still used by greenhouse farmers until a few years ago. Only with the appearance of LED on the table was it agreed to use μMol/s/m2 for the determination of the light intensity. Lux meters are not as accurate, admittedly, but they worked earlier and still do today because they use essentially the same technique. The main difference lies in the interpretation of the data and different filters but that's it. Having determined the exact conversion factor for a particular LED and CCT, the calculated results are approximately accurate. Deviations are usually within ± 50μΜol/s, so you can work well with it. In professional operation, no question, but for otto normal consumer not necessarily.

 

[wietefras]

Yeah they are significantly off. The problem is that lux is a measure of light energy with a bias towards the 550nm green range. PAR is a simple photon count. Totally different things.

That's bulshit. Those par conversion factors work.

Did you start another campaign of spreading fud under yet another nick name? Just get lost with your nonsense.