Teaching Creationism in public schools

[undertheice]

creationism definitely doesn't fall into the category of science, so what class would you teach it in?

philosophy? sociology? would it do any real harm to mention it during the discussion of evolution as a widely believed, though completely unfounded, alternative? we are so infatuated with supposed truths and general laws that we fail to see that not everything can be pigeonholed or so easily classified, not everything readily fits into our preconceived notions of how the world works. facts change from era to era, only our hubris keeps us from admitting that today's truth may be tomorrow's foolish assumption. we willingly teach yesterday's errors as an example of how far we have come, but religion seems to frighten us to death because it is something that cannot be so easily disproved. it frightens us so much that teachers may not even offer up opinion on the subject (other than the accepted party line) for fear of influencing impressionable young minds.

 

[hom36rown]

I dont know about you, but my Highschool didnt offer sociology or philosophy

 

[hom36rown]

why not teach about horus and amun ra then, how about scientology?

 

[undertheice]

I don't know about you, but my High school didn't offer sociology or philosophy

public schooling offers little of any real value. it is a state run babysitting service, intended to indoctrinate the young into the present set of acceptable social mores and set them out on the street, ignorant and wholly unprepared for reality. where it should stimulate it merely annoys, where it should challenge it demands mediocrity. what should be taught and what is taught are two totally different things. this is the price we pay for allowing the state to educate our youth.

 

[hom36rown]

theres always private schools....

 

[undertheice]

there's always private schools....

and how many folks do you know that can afford to be taxed to support our failing public schools and still keep enough in the bank to send their kids to private schools?

 

[lopezri]

I just want to be the first to say that I TOTALLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING that undertheice has said. Obviously this is someone who uses his or her own mind to think and doesn't allow the media or our educational system to mold the mind!

 

[medicineman]

I just want to be the first to say that I TOTALLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING that undertheice has said. Obviously this is someone who uses his or her own mind to think and doesn't allow the media or our educational system to mold the mind!

Undertheice has a well versed presentation of his Ideas, It is almost like poetry, but they are still "His Ideas" There are plenty of opposing Ideas that also have merit. Where he alludes to the mediocrity of public schools, the incredible interaction among the different races and social beliefs is by itself a justification for public schools. Maybe if more money was allocated to schools instead of war, we could give every student a great education. The real duty of K-12 is to make sure you can read and hopefully balance a checkbook, learn a little brainwash about US history, and learn how to get along with others. College is where your education begins, well that and life. Maybe some part of high schools should be craft schools, like in Europe.
The problem really is: there are no jobs no matter what your education status, flippin burgers is about all that is left. Hopefully, when Obama gets elected, he can open up a few million jobs in the energy sector, a few in the environmental sector, a few in the diplomatic sector, and bring this runaway corporate controlled country back under control, JMHO.

 

[Bongulator]

I had philosophy in (public) high school. Actually, I attended two different high schools, and both offered it. My philosphy teacher smoked a pipe. Well, one day he left the room for a few mins for something and the girl in front of me slipped some pot into his bag of tobacco and mixed it all in. Proportionally, it wasn't a lot of pot compared to the amount of tobacco.

He came back, filled his pipe, sat down, and started puffing away. I guess it was subtle enough that he couldn't smell the difference, but I sure could, and everyone in the class knew. We all started snickering, but then the bell rang, class over, so we left. Wonder if he got baked and got the munchies. (He was like 60+ years old.)

Anyway, teach creationism wherever they teach about other religions. History is probably okay. You know, "Creationism, an attempt to introduce religion into public schools, first was introduced in...." Blah, blah, blah. There's nothing wrong with people being taught the history of creationism, as long as they are simultaneously taught that it's emphatically not science, just a sleazy tactic to do an end-run around the Constitution. People *should* know that.

 

[ccodiane]

I had philosophy in (public) high school. Actually, I attended two different high schools, and both offered it. My philosphy teacher smoked a pipe. Well, one day he left the room for a few mins for something and the girl in front of me slipped some pot into his bag of tobacco and mixed it all in. Proportionally, it wasn't a lot of pot compared to the amount of tobacco.

He came back, filled his pipe, sat down, and started puffing away. I guess it was subtle enough that he couldn't smell the difference, but I sure could, and everyone in the class knew. We all started snickering, but then the bell rang, class over, so we left. Wonder if he got baked and got the munchies. (He was like 60+ years old.)

Anyway, teach creationism wherever they teach about other religions. History is probably okay. You know, "Creationism, an attempt to introduce religion into public schools, first was introduced in...." Blah, blah, blah. There's nothing wrong with people being taught the history of creationism, as long as they are simultaneously taught that it's emphatically not science, just a sleazy tactic to do an end-run around the Constitution. People *should* know that.

It's just a clusterfuck of chaos now.

 

[lopezri]

Undertheice has a well versed presentation of his Ideas, It is almost like poetry, but they are still "His Ideas" There are plenty of opposing Ideas that also have merit. Where he alludes to the mediocrity of public schools, the incredible interaction among the different races and social beliefs is by itself a justification for public schools. Maybe if more money was allocated to schools instead of war, we could give every student a great education. The real duty of K-12 is to make sure you can read and hopefully balance a checkbook, learn a little brainwash about US history, and learn how to get along with others. College is where your education begins, well that and life. Maybe some part of high schools should be craft schools, like in Europe.
The problem really is: there are no jobs no matter what your education status, flippin burgers is about all that is left. Hopefully, when Obama gets elected, he can open up a few million jobs in the energy sector, a few in the environmental sector, a few in the diplomatic sector, and bring this runaway corporate controlled country back under control, JMHO.

Have you ever noticed that when somebody has a liberal point of view they also have no accountability for their own failures? We have plenty of jobs available here, we just don't have the right work force to fill those positions. If someone is stuck flipping burgers it is usually because they haven't shown anybody that they have enough motivation to move further up the ladder. Also, most of the burger flippers I've encountered don't even have enough motivation to learn to speak English sufficiently. That lack of motivation isn't going to cut it in the corporate world.

The only people who can change that are themselves. Obama can't change it.

Also, I wish people would realize that the President is the Executive branch of the government. Their only real power is to veto Legislative bills, they can't BE legislative. Therefore, if you look at what is going on with everything that was mentioned above, the fault lies in the Democratic controlled Legislative body, not in the Executive body. They're the ones who have this country discombobulated.

 

[Bongulator]

Well, to be fair, 75% of the last eight years, Republicans controlled both houses of Congress, the executive branch (and whatever branch Cheney invented), and arguably the judicial branch at least some of that time. And the current problems aren't the result of mistakes that happened in the last two years -- this collapse of the worldwide financial system was a long time building. It really began to gain steam around 2003.

So, if the Republicans wanted to head this off, they had six full years where they could have done whatever they wanted to do, since they controlled *everything*, not just Congress. Which they did. It just so happens that what they wanted to do was spend, spend, spend (and fight some wars), not fix the impending problems.

 

[tckfui]

we cant say under GOD in the pledge of allegiance, but its okay to teach creationism? that should go over quite well

 

[cleatis]

for the last couple of centuries every single president and vice-president has believed the same christian nonsense and it hasn't spelled the doom of our civilization. why is it that anyone should be so concerned with another of these lunatics gaining access to the halls of power?

why shouldn't creationism be taught in schools? it's not as if the little bastards are paying any attention anyway. though there seems to be little or no evidence to back it up, creationism seems to be an acceptable theory for millions of americans so why not introduce young minds to it in a rational setting? there are many who are willing to spout such absurd statements as "Evolution has been fact since the 1800s", but we should probably remember that evolution is merely another theory that cannot possibly be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. if we are going to ask our children to come to an informed conclusion, they should be given all of the information available and allowed to decide which theory best suits the world around them. refusing to give them access to such classical references as religion is merely another form of censorship. a well rounded individual should be aware of all the possibilities and given the freedom to choose.

refusing to acknowledge creationism might even be seen as contrary to the spirit of the first amendment. by ignoring the phrase " or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" we have managed to abolish religion from the public square, but is that the true intention ofthe first law of this land? our quest for a more rational outlook on life has led us to embrace the secular and shun the spiritual, if we can't touch it then it doesn't exist. at the same time; we willingly accept the word of the scientific community as if it were gospel and genuflect to the religion of logic, but our blind belief in the infallibility of scientific conjecture makes us no better than the primitive kneeling before his altar and the persecution of traditional religious thought reeks of the inquisition.

if we consider the theory of evolution so superior to its predecessors, then why are we so afraid of a logical comparison?

While I do agree that the little bastards aren't paying attention anyhow, Teaching creationism opens a huge door to get other religious bullshit into schools; it's a stones throw away from preaching. That's my biggest issue with it, is where does it stop and who gets to choose? We're already on a road to practical dictatorship and I can't see how using the government to press religion is going to help anything, let alone how chaining us all to 4000 year old ideals is going to lead to any sort of progress.

Many Americans already do believe in creationism, but they also believe that somehow some dude built a boat and fit two of every creature on the planet on it. In this book of religion also comes the right to beat your woman down with a stick, so long as it isn't any bigger than the thumb. We aren't supposed to eat shell fish. They idolize a man that killed every living being (the elderly, the infirm, little boys, mothers and so on) except for the virgins (little girls too) and sold them like cattle. Then they pray to some sky creature that has (via "proof" of their own book) murdered about 4 million people then vilify a devil that has killed no one. This is hardly a source of informed decisions.

In essence, just because millions of people believe in it doesn't make it any less bullshit than it is. Also, if millions of people believe in creation, why do we need to teach it in school? I mean really, why?

As I said, when churches start to teach evolution, then they can preach their mud to man fairy tale to all the blank slated little kiddies they want.

 

[undertheice]

Undertheice has a well versed presentation of his Ideas, It is almost like poetry, but they are still "His Ideas"

yes, i admit it. i am guilty of the sin of individual thought. i pray that you all will have mercy on my miserable soul. the voices in my head keep on putting together these words and thoughts and sometimes they have something more important to say that that i should climb the nearest clock tower and empty a few clips into my friends and neighbors.

Where he alludes to the mediocrity of public schools, the incredible interaction among the different races and social beliefs is by itself a justification for public schools. Maybe if more money was allocated to schools instead of war, we could give every student a great education. The real duty of K-12 is to make sure you can read and hopefully balance a checkbook, learn a little brainwash about US history, and learn how to get along with others. College is where your education begins, well that and life. Maybe some part of high schools should be craft schools, like in Europe.

so you're perfectly ok with our schools being nothing more than a taxpayer subsidized babysitting service? you see nothing wrong with graduates who read at a third grade level, have little or no capacity for logical thought and are totally incapable of understanding how the world around them works, let alone an ability to delve beyond the obvious to more esoteric realms? you do realize that a huge chunk of this country never goes to college, don't you? you are essentially advocating the creation of a slave class, the very thing you accuse the evil corporations of attempting.

i don't know about you, but my schools were predominantly white. i was surrounded by children very much like myself and diversity was something that the administration paid lip service to while spoon feeding the students a curriculum designed by bland bureaucrats and ivory tower idiots. and i went to relatively good public schools!!

the problem doesn't lie with the schools themselves, but with the fact that they are under the control of the all powerful state. they are saddled with the waste and ineptitude inherent in any state run institution. this mediocrity is no unlucky accident, it is required by a creed of mediocrity that demands potentially great intellects be stunted so that inferior minds will not feel themselves to have been neglected. the cult of equality dictates that everyone must be equal in every way and we all know that that just isn't so.

your single line "like in europe" is very telling and lies toward the heart of the politics of envy. while europe has coveted america's strength over the last century and striven to become more like us, we have envied their illusory sophistication and historical grandeur. we see their tired bureaucracies devolving into a socialistic quagmire and seem to feel we should imitate their downward spiral. it's a bit sad that the experiment of american freedom should be cut short by such petty jealousy.

 

[undertheice]

Teaching creationism opens a huge door to get other religious bullshit into schools

so, let it in. our children are not nearly so naive as the millions of kool-aid drinking adults that daily fall for such tripe. allowing the information to be absorbed in a neutral setting may well be what is needed for our children to see what fairy tales these religious nuts are peddling.

I can't see how using the government to press religion is going to help anything

all the more reason to remove the heavy hand of government from education. eliminating the agenda driven policies of political animals from our schools seems a proper step toward providing our children with unbiased and complete information.

Many Americans already do believe in creationism.....
.....This is hardly a source of informed decisions.

.....if millions of people believe in creation, why do we need to teach it in school?

the object of education is not to spoon feed decisions, but to inform so that our children will be able to make decisions for themselves. providing information is not the same as indoctrination.

.....when churches start to teach evolution, then they can preach their mud to man fairy tale to all the blank slated little kiddies they want.

churches are centers of indoctrination, schools should be sources of information. church attendance is voluntary, education is mandatory. are you getting the picture yet? while religion can be seen as a necessary nuisance and no business of those it does not touch, education is of prime importance for a society that wishes to succeed and excel.

 

[Doctor Pot]

Reminds me of an article I read in Time a while back:

Are We Failing Our Geniuses? - TIME

One interesting statistic from that article: we spend over ten times as much money on programs for the mentally retarded as we do on programs for gifted students.

 

[medicineman]

yes, i admit it. i am guilty of the sin of individual thought. i pray that you all will have mercy on my miserable soul. the voices in my head keep on putting together these words and thoughts and sometimes they have something more important to say that that i should climb the nearest clock tower and empty a few clips into my friends and neighbors.

so you're perfectly ok with our schools being nothing more than a taxpayer subsidized babysitting service? you see nothing wrong with graduates who read at a third grade level, have little or no capacity for logical thought and are totally incapable of understanding how the world around them works, let alone an ability to delve beyond the obvious to more esoteric realms? you do realize that a huge chunk of this country never goes to college, don't you? you are essentially advocating the creation of a slave class, the very thing you accuse the evil corporations of attempting.

i don't know about you, but my schools were predominantly white. i was surrounded by children very much like myself and diversity was something that the administration paid lip service to while spoon feeding the students a curriculum designed by bland bureaucrats and ivory tower idiots. and i went to relatively good public schools!!

the problem doesn't lie with the schools themselves, but with the fact that they are under the control of the all powerful state. they are saddled with the waste and ineptitude inherent in any state run institution. this mediocrity is no unlucky accident, it is required by a creed of mediocrity that demands potentially great intellects be stunted so that inferior minds will not feel themselves to have been neglected. the cult of equality dictates that everyone must be equal in every way and we all know that that just isn't so.

your single line "like in europe" is very telling and lies toward the heart of the politics of envy. while europe has coveted america's strength over the last century and striven to become more like us, we have envied their illusory sophistication and historical grandeur. we see their tired bureaucracies devolving into a socialistic quagmire and seem to feel we should imitate their downward spiral. it's a bit sad that the experiment of american freedom should be cut short by such petty jealousy.

Yeah, ~LOL~, I'm sure that Europe is just itching to take over being the worlds policeman, spending ten times more than they earn and going bankrupt. BTW, WTF is this politics of envy you spout off about.You actually think I'm envious of other systems. Like maybe free medical for all citizens, free college for all citizens, geeze, excuse me, I have my medical so me envying medical or college would be silly, I have medical and too old for college. I guess I'm an ass for wanting my kids and grandkids to have it better than me. I got 2 years of JC while working 2 jobs and going to night school, and supporting a family, So believe me, I earned my schooling, GI bill from Nam. 93 bucks a month, whoopee. You are an insisious ass. Every time I post you go off an some jealousy rant. You don't know me from stink. Untill you've walked a fucking mile, quit with the personal shit, OK. Everything I've gotten in this stinking life, I've paid for with sweat and blood. I'm a little tired of your high minded rhetoric directed at me, Take a chill pill and attack in some other direction.

 

[undertheice]

I'm a little tired of your high minded rhetoric directed at me, Take a chill pill and attack in some other direction.

believe it or not, everything is not all about you. your posts may be an excellent example of the something for nothing attitude that is sinking the country and they may be an fantastic spring board for my rants, but taking my replies so seriously could be hazardous to your already fragile state of mind. is it my love of a well turned phrase that infuriates you so? is it just your thin skin showing through or are you disturbed merely because i am right? whatever the reason, you should probably quit taking it so personally and remember this is just an internet forum where anonymous voices can safely air their opinions and argue their points without fear of it all coming to blows. it might not hurt if you also remembered that only a fool bothers to argue with idiots and, in case you haven't noticed, i ain't no fool.

 

[Bongulator]

So, our classes should give equal time to all religions and beliefs? Spaghetti Monsterism, Pink Unicornism, Satanism, Islam, Buddhism, Scientology, all of it? To be fair, if you let any in, you have to let them all in, so people can make an informed decision on which is the correct religion. I bet parents would raise a shit storm at that.