The Great Mycorrhizae Myth

dizzlekush

Well-Known Member
The word Mycorrhizae stems from the greek words Mykes (fungus) and Rhiza (root), and literally means "fungus root." Almost all mycorrhizae can be separated into two large groups, endomycorrhizae (endo meaning internal) and ectomycorrhizae (ecto meaning external). Endomycorrhizae can also be called Endotropic Mycorrhizae, Arbuscular Mycorrhizae (AM) or Vesicular-Arbuscular Mycorrhizae (VAM). Both AM and VAM are nowadays considered more appropriate nomenclature (with AM in the slight lead) for non ectomycorrhizae fungi, but both names are actually less accurate, since not all endomycorrhizae produce vesicles and not all established endomycorrhizae connections have arbuscules. Out of simplicity, I shall be referring to Endomycorrhizae as AM from now on.

Over 80% of all plant species (including those from the Cannabis genus) can ONLY form a relationship with ENDOMYCORRHIZAE (AM). Adding ectomycorrhizae to your cannabis will not benefit it, because cannabis plants (like most plants) cannot form a symbiotic relationship with ectomycorrhizae. In fact, when trying to inoculate plants with AM and ectomycorrhizae (like with products such as Great White, Piranha, Myco Madness, and Oregonism), the formation of ectomycorrhizae prevents AM from creating symbiotic bonds with the host plant:

"Vesicular-arbuscular (VA) mycorrhizal fungi and ectomycorrhizal fungi were observed together in the same root system, and even within the same root apices, of seedlings of Eucalyptus dumosa A. Cunn. ex Schau. On a population basis, there was a succession of two overlapping mycorrhizal epidemics-VA mycorrhizas followed by ectomycorrhizas. This succession was interpreted as follows. Early build-up of VA mycorrhizas was related to initial higher inoculum potential of that fungus and to rapidity of colonization of individual roots. The ectomycorrhizal fungus was more successful later in achieving secondary infections by hyphal spread and in colonization of lateral root branches. The ectomycorrhizal fungus had no difficulty infecting pre-existing VA mycorrhizas, but the ectomycorrhizal sheath provided a barrier to subsequent VA mycorrhizal infections." 1

So the natural invagination (not a dirty word) that ectomycorrhizae form actually prevent AM form establishing their connection with roots, so it is important to never buy a "wide spectrum" product that has both ectomycorrhizae and AM.

Now that we've established that only AM can form a symbiotic relationship with cannabis, lets take a look at a simple understanding of what this symbiotic relationship actually is. this is the most simple explanation i could find describing the relationship between host plant and mycorrhizae. "Mycorrhizae facilitate water and mineral exchange with soil, contribute to disease and toxicity resistance and help in the colonization of barren soil or degraded landscapes. In exchange for these benefits, the fungi gain access to carbohydrates produced by the plant and transferred from the leaves to the root system". 2 Sounds like a sweet deal. your plant gets all those benefits and only has to give up some carbohydrates. but is that actually a good deal? since carbohydrates are easily usable forms of energy my plant has already took the time to make, should i really be giving some of that energy to a fungus? will my plant really be growing faster that way? lets take a harder look at the details of AM inoculation.

It takes several weeks to form a solid AM colony in a previously uncolonized roots system. Making a "bennie tea" out of your AM will serve no benefits (pun intended), as AM can only propagate with the assistance of a host plant. probably the most important and overlooked aspect of mycorrhizae is its ENTIRE relationship with phosphorus. it is fairly well known that Phosphorous is the element made most available by AM, what is less known about the relationship between the 2 is that 25ppm of phosphorus in soil or in plant food, prevents AM from propogating, and even higher levels change the relationship between AM and the host plant from symbiotic to parasitic:
"The extent to which the plant species depended on AM fungi for dry matter production decreased as the levels of soil P increased, but the degree of this decrease differed in the two species tested. Acacia nilotica colonized by AM fungi showed a significant increase in shoot P and dry matter at a soil P level of 10 ppm whereas in Albizzia lebbeck, such increase occurred at 20 ppm. Mycorrhizal inoculation response disappeared beyond soil P levels of 25 ppm in Acacia nilotica and 30 ppm in Albizzia lebbeck. Levels of soil P greater than 25 ppm suppressed AM fungus colonization in both species. Soil P levels of 30 and 40 ppm caused negative mycorrhizal dependencies (MD) in Acacia nilotica and Albizzia lebbeck respectively." 3

So AM becomes useless at 25 ppm or phosphorus and parasitic at as little as 30ppm... you might be thinking "Well Dizzlekush, these tests are done on trees, not marijuana, there's no scientific evidence that AM negatively effects marijuana, no way nutrient companies are THAT big of assholes." well that's where your wrong again:

"The effect of arbuscular mycorrhiza on heavy metal uptake and translocation was investigated in Cannabis sativa. Hemp was grown in the presence and absence of 100 microg g-1 Cd and Ni and 300 microg g-1 Cr(VI), and inoculated or not with the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae. In our experimental condition, hemp growth was reduced in inoculated plants and the reduction was related to the degree of mycorrhization. The percentage of mycorrhizal colonisation was 42% and 9% in plants grown in non-contaminated and contaminated soil, suggesting a significant negative effect of high metal concentrations on plant infection by G. mosseae. Soil pH, metal bioavailability and plant metal uptake were not influenced by mycorrhization. The organ metal concentrations were not statistically different between inoculated and non-inoculated plants, apart from Ni which concentration was significantly higher in stem and leaf of inoculated plants grown in contaminated soil. The distribution of absorbed metals inside plant was related to the soil heavy metal concentrations: in plant grown in non-contaminated soil the greater part of absorbed Cr and Ni was found in shoots and no significant difference was determined between inoculated and non-inoculated plants. On the contrary, plants grown in artificially contaminated soil accumulated most metal in root organ. In this soil, mycorrhization significantly enhanced the translocation of all the three metals from root to shoot. The possibility to increase metal accumulation in shoot is very interesting for phytoextraction purpose, since most high producing biomass plants, such as non-mycorrhized hemp, retain most heavy metals in roots, limiting their application."4

Now let me just straighten a few things out. This is the only experiment i could find that was specifically testing cannabis inoculated and cannabis not inoculated with AM. now the main goal behind the experiment was to see the relationship between AM and heavy metal uptake, not the relationship between AM and Cannabis. Now unfortunately the experimenters put too many variables in the test to intimately see the relationship between cannabis and AM, but this is what I got from that expirement " In our experimental condition, hemp growth was reduced in inoculated plants and the reduction was related to the degree of mycorrhization... Soil pH, metal bioavailability and plant metal uptake were not influenced by mycorrhization. The organ metal concentrations were not statistically different between inoculated and non-inoculated plants, apart from Ni which concentration was significantly higher in stem and leaf of inoculated plants grown in contaminated soil."4

There you have it folks. You can choose to take from this what you will, but ultimately AM can only be beneficial when providing your plant with less than 25 ppm of phosphorus, which is not enough phosphorus to support budding( in my experiences), even with the help of AM, and at 30 ppm it becomes parasitic, stops providing water and nutrients for your plants while your plants continue to photosynthesize for it. not exactly the relationship you're looking for.

Sources:
1 http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.1987.tb00195.x/abstract
2 http://www.ehow.com/about_6702102_importance-mycorrhiza.html
3 http://www.springerlink.com/content/t0531w63471h5rqj/
4 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15698640
 

symbiote420

Well-Known Member
There's a product I use called Mykos from Extreme Gardening and it only contains one strain of endo mycorrhizae fungus: Glomus Intraradices. (hope I spelled that right) This to me is the best myco product on the planet, bar none! Guidelines when using myco-fungi are let them do their job you don't need a lot of chelating agents(whether organic or chemical) to force the plants nutes the fungus does it for you, and keep your overall phosphorus levels down under 10 as far as NPK goes, an occasional aeriated compost tea with molasses to give them a boost and you're set!
 

Arabic

Well-Known Member
There's a product I use called Mykos from Extreme Gardening and it only contains one strain of endo mycorrhizae fungus: Glomus Intraradices. (hope I spelled that right) This to me is the best myco product on the planet, bar none! Guidelines when using myco-fungi are let them do their job you don't need a lot of chelating agents(whether organic or chemical) to force the plants nutes the fungus does it for you, and keep your overall phosphorus levels down under 10 as far as NPK goes, an occasional aeriated compost tea with molasses to give them a boost and you're set!
Hey man, what part of MI u from? I use this product as well, but notice before Glomus intraradices it says that it is a 'vesicular arbuscular' fungi, that's the harmful one. Also I believe this product may increase the chance of getting root rot or pythium. My clones were fine until I introduced this product, still not sure though. In the mean-time I've stopped innoculating my plants.
 

symbiote420

Well-Known Member
The results I'm getting from using this product are simply amazing!! I can't see myself not using this product, I don't think you're getting root rot from this I never have and I've used the wettable powder before I started using the granules, both work great for me. That particular bacteria is in every myco product on the market.
 

dizzlekush

Well-Known Member
@symbiote420 it does sound like you know how to grow properly using mycorrhizae. but as far as Xtreme Gardening Myco's goes, thats a very interesting company. they try to go for the more oldschool, down to earth, farmer look but they're really just another plant specific company rippin people off hiding behind their "pumpkins". there's many companies out there with a more concentrated, cheaper product. plus mycorrhizae is microscopic so if you think you're seeing results in the rhizosphere, you are mistaken sir.

@Arabic no mycorrhizae wont make your plants more susceptible to molds.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
I personally have been using great white for years. It is too expensive. There are times when I haven't used it because I'm out of it. Before i even knew about mycos. I've had huge positive results using great white as opposed to not using it. I know all the bacillas in it act as an inoculant and make roots take off too. I'm not challenging the validity of what you are saying here. The great white does work very well, especially if you feed the bacteria too. Aside from mycos I know that all the other bacteria and microbes can also form in compost teas .
 

cannawizard

Well-Known Member
"Now unfortunately the experimenters put too many variables in the test to intimately see the relationship between cannabis and AM, but this is what I got from that expirement " In our experimental condition, hemp growth was reduced in inoculated plants and the reduction was related to the degree of mycorrhization... Soil pH, metal bioavailability and plant metal uptake were not influenced by mycorrhization. The organ metal concentrations were not statistically different between inoculated and non-inoculated plants, apart from Ni which concentration was significantly higher in stem and leaf of inoculated plants grown in contaminated soil."4

*good read, but i dont agree with this data.. go read Dr. Elaine Ingham work/books :) even tho hemp and cannabis are from the same gene-pool, they aren't the same.
 

hybridcheef

Active Member
@symbiote420 it does sound like you know how to grow properly using mycorrhizae. but as far as Xtreme Gardening Myco's goes, thats a very interesting company. they try to go for the more oldschool, down to earth, farmer look but they're really just another plant specific company rippin people off hiding behind their "pumpkins". there's many companies out there with a more concentrated, cheaper product. plus mycorrhizae is microscopic so if you think you're seeing results in the rhizosphere, you are mistaken sir.

@Arabic no mycorrhizae wont make your plants more susceptible to molds.

i know this is an old quote. but man this guy sounds stupid lol. so basically your saying you cant see the results in the roots that come from using a myco product? lol cmon man. think that through before you start blabbin out some down syndrome type shit.
 

charface

Well-Known Member
Gotta say this is disturbing and Im definitely going to have to really investigate later when I can focus for a bit.

Im not going to discount anything yet.
When the myco craze started we were told to make tea with it, put it all over in the soil and that we needed multi kinds. A few short years later I only care about 1 kind and I only use it to directly inoculate the roots.

Its going to be very hard to convince me but Im forced by my own desire to know to at least look into those links.

Also if it turns out myco sucks
Ill be sad, i feel so smart dusting my roots. Lol
 

hotrodharley

Well-Known Member
Gotta say this is disturbing and Im definitely going to have to really investigate later when I can focus for a bit.

Im not going to discount anything yet.
When the myco craze started we were told to make tea with it, put it all over in the soil and that we needed multi kinds. A few short years later I only care about 1 kind and I only use it to directly inoculate the roots.

Its going to be very hard to convince me but Im forced by my own desire to know to at least look into those links.

Also if it turns out myco sucks
Ill be sad, i feel so smart dusting my roots. Lol
I use Mykos with excellent results.
 

GreenHighlander

Well-Known Member
The Op of this thread obviously was looking at it from the "feed the plant" stand point. If looked at from the "feed the soil" standpoint it is absolutely good to have. There are many in soil relationships that just because we cannot see, does not make them not important.
Cheers :)
 

charface

Well-Known Member
Trust me im still in the camp of the soil food web and all the experts.
I just said I have to read his links because he clearly has all the lingo down enough that Im willing to investigate more
 
Top