Thanks for the comments.
Anyone ever tried air driven atomizer type approach for aeroponics?
- Thread starter Larry3215
- Start date
What setup are you running - AA or HP or?
Just did run with toxic/ripper seeds and ak49. The dried nugs are some forum cut from last year. Have tried air atomised/siphon feed running on anywhere from 40- 60 psi Worked besT. using the atomisers i HavE, i can go as low as 15 psi and still get same microns as using Accumulator/diaphragm pump/tefen type 100 psi nozzles. With this setup you can straight section off the entire bottom half of tent, save for maneuverability of course but the idea is to have the roots as openair as possible, so long as there's no light leak, ideally, When using the compressoR, you want whatever the roots are held in to be the only layer whichs rigid and basically draping Few layers of weed fabric down the sides Into a basin or tub of sorts but when it's dialed in You'll have no runoff.. I found a 5seconds on 75seconds off Ideal In 3"H x 4"W x 3"D Root chamber with 3 planTs when in flower, And as little as 3 seconds on 2 minutes off when small And will be considerably less so if using Smaller container/root chamber! Like 1-2 secondS max! 50 seconds off if using Enclosed rubbermaid tote Roughly 20- 30 gal .
If use a tote, cut off the bottom and position inside of another tote but leave as much gap as possible and secure shade fabric around outside of the top tote before putting lid on so itS secure, then fasten somehow or tie around outside of the bottom tote so it's Wrapped around like a skirt, to keep light and bugs out And maintain Nice equilibrium usually 10-15 degrees cooler than room which is rocking 75-80°F in veg,Early flower 70-75°F, thEn down to 65-70F for late flower. In a 10 x 10 tent.
60psi at compressor equated to about 45psi split between two nozzles Split to two separate 55 gallon tubs. Mist interval Controlled by solenoid whichs connected to $10 amazon relay timer which goes to 0.0009sec-9999years!
Sorry if bit confusing as writing from phone and having difficulty portraying proper outline of current working method. Had to move and cut early, so much a bummer but i won't digress... Just that much more grand It'll be Supernal work brOught by Superexcrescence Thru furtherIng efforts As well being also superlunar
If use a tote, cut off the bottom and position inside of another tote but leave as much gap as possible and secure shade fabric around outside of the top tote before putting lid on so itS secure, then fasten somehow or tie around outside of the bottom tote so it's Wrapped around like a skirt, to keep light and bugs out And maintain Nice equilibrium usually 10-15 degrees cooler than room which is rocking 75-80°F in veg,Early flower 70-75°F, thEn down to 65-70F for late flower. In a 10 x 10 tent.
60psi at compressor equated to about 45psi split between two nozzles Split to two separate 55 gallon tubs. Mist interval Controlled by solenoid whichs connected to $10 amazon relay timer which goes to 0.0009sec-9999years!
Sorry if bit confusing as writing from phone and having difficulty portraying proper outline of current working method. Had to move and cut early, so much a bummer but i won't digress... Just that much more grand It'll be Supernal work brOught by Superexcrescence Thru furtherIng efforts As well being also superlunar
Now you're getting my hopes up again! That sounds very doable - especially if I can get away with no accumulators.
Do you have alink or model number for the sprayer heads you are using?
I normally only grow three or four plants at most in my small tent - I scrog. Its only 28" x 38" inside = about 7.4 sq ft. I think a 27 gallon Home Depot tote would be about the max size I could fit, but Im not sure I need one that big. I Like the stacking idea of yours.
Solenoids and timers are easy, and relatively cheap. Its the compressor and the heads thats $$. If I can get by with one head that would help a lot on the budget. That leaves the compressor as the only other $$ single item.
I was going to ask atomizer this question too - How many CFM do I need to run a single head? That will determine the cost of the compressor.
I have at least one 3 gallon and maybe two 5 gallon air tanks I can use for an extra reservoir if that helps to reduce cycle times on the compressor.
Thanks for the info! If you have any pics you can post of your hardware when you get a chance - that would be a big help!
Do you have alink or model number for the sprayer heads you are using?
I normally only grow three or four plants at most in my small tent - I scrog. Its only 28" x 38" inside = about 7.4 sq ft. I think a 27 gallon Home Depot tote would be about the max size I could fit, but Im not sure I need one that big. I Like the stacking idea of yours.
Solenoids and timers are easy, and relatively cheap. Its the compressor and the heads thats $$. If I can get by with one head that would help a lot on the budget. That leaves the compressor as the only other $$ single item.
I was going to ask atomizer this question too - How many CFM do I need to run a single head? That will determine the cost of the compressor.
I have at least one 3 gallon and maybe two 5 gallon air tanks I can use for an extra reservoir if that helps to reduce cycle times on the compressor.
Thanks for the info! If you have any pics you can post of your hardware when you get a chance - that would be a big help!
I'll ask you the questions I asked above....You may be looking at the wrong nozzles if they cost $27, generally they are over $100
Do you have a link of brand/model number for a spray head that you recommend? Cheaper is good, but Im not a big fan of buying cheap crap tools that dont last or work as they should. Im ok with Chevy quality, but cant quite afford Ferrari
Also, what CFM compressor do I need to be looking at for a single head setup? I guess I should ask if a single head will be enough for my small grow size first though.
Just re-read you post above. If you're only using 200 WH/day, that sound like a smallish compressor?
I have a few compressors, this one is the smallest of the bunch.
The nozzle(s) will need to be matched to the chamber size, if one size fitted all it would be a lot easier. Compressor CFM is irrelevant here because the nozzles run short mist pulses. How often the compressor runs depends on the nozzle air consumption (cfm), cycle timing, compressor receiver size and its cut-out pressure. A nozzle could be supplied by a small 1.1cfm compressor with a 6 gal receiver or a much larger 10cfm compressor with a 65 gal receiver. The small comp would run for around 90 seconds once an hour, the large comp would run for less than 6mins once every 28 hours assuming you unplugged it after charging and allow it to run down close to the nozzle air pressure setting. Pressure switches on most compressors dont allow for a 80-100psi differential, its typically 30-40psi
The timer 13elves mentions isnt capable of 0.0009sec-9999years, its a mere 0.005 seconds to 270 hours With MD set to "06" and "NX" set to 0001, you will have mist pulse increments of 1/200th of a second and pause increments of one second. Setting T1 to 200 will give a 1 second mist pulse, setting T2 to 200 will give 200 seconds pause, T1 and T2 at 100 will give 0.5 seconds/100 second timing.
Be aware the relays on those boards are cheap and nasty so if you go that route its best to replace them, ideally with a solid state relay not a mechanical relay The push switches eventually become unreliable but that does take a while.
Here`s a vid of an SSR modded timer i uploaded for a RIU member back in 2014.. time flies!
This one shows a 2 second pulse setting (T1 set to 400) with 30 seconds pause (T2 set to 30). Note the 400 to zero countdown.
The nozzle(s) will need to be matched to the chamber size, if one size fitted all it would be a lot easier. Compressor CFM is irrelevant here because the nozzles run short mist pulses. How often the compressor runs depends on the nozzle air consumption (cfm), cycle timing, compressor receiver size and its cut-out pressure. A nozzle could be supplied by a small 1.1cfm compressor with a 6 gal receiver or a much larger 10cfm compressor with a 65 gal receiver. The small comp would run for around 90 seconds once an hour, the large comp would run for less than 6mins once every 28 hours assuming you unplugged it after charging and allow it to run down close to the nozzle air pressure setting. Pressure switches on most compressors dont allow for a 80-100psi differential, its typically 30-40psi
The timer 13elves mentions isnt capable of 0.0009sec-9999years, its a mere 0.005 seconds to 270 hours
With MD set to "06" and "NX" set to 0001, you will have mist pulse increments of 1/200th of a second and pause increments of one second. Setting T1 to 200 will give a 1 second mist pulse, setting T2 to 200 will give 200 seconds pause, T1 and T2 at 100 will give 0.5 seconds/100 second timing.Be aware the relays on those boards are cheap and nasty so if you go that route its best to replace them, ideally with a solid state relay not a mechanical relay
The push switches eventually become unreliable but that does take a while.Here`s a vid of an SSR modded timer i uploaded for a RIU member back in 2014.. time flies!
This one shows a 2 second pulse setting (T1 set to 400) with 30 seconds pause (T2 set to 30). Note the 400 to zero countdown.
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Thats excellent information - thank you!
Is the SSR timer a solid state one? If I can get by with a little over 1 CFM, that brings the cost of a quiet compressor much more within range $$ wise. I found several in the $100 dollar range in a quick Amazon search.
So, I think the next question is, how do you calculate the nozzle requirement based on chamber size, and how do you calculate how big the chamber needs to be to start with?
Ive been reviewing my growing habits and needs today. If Im considering this radical a change in what Im doing, I may as well look at the entire setup to see if there are other improvements I can/should make at the same time.
My tent is small - 7.3 sq ft, but its larger than I need for my use. I got 422 gms dry weight on my first soil grow with 4 plants and about 544 gms on my second (hydro experiment) grow with three plants. That amount of product will last me well over a year at the rate Im currently using it. Actually, it might last me two years, so hi yields are not a concern. Im also not worried about running out of product if all the plants die in any particular grow. I make green dragon, and RSO into capsules. I dont smoke. I will hate it if I kill them off, but it wont hurt me other than the waste of money and time.
So, Im considering cutting back to one or two plants and reducing my tent to aprox 18" x 24" or maybe 24" x 24".
So, if I do 2 plants in a 24x24 tent, how do I calculate the ideal chamber size, and then size the nozzle(s)?
While Im at it, I am also flip-flopping back and forth between AA and HP with no air. I am starting to see advantages both ways and the costs dont see that different on a small scale. Plus if Im saving up, it wont matter.
I assume the chamber sizing and number of heads would be the same for both - just using different heads?
I am really liking the idea of doing this and being able to do the D2W thing - especially after finding out some disappointing information on why PH changes in a rez.
Is the SSR timer a solid state one? If I can get by with a little over 1 CFM, that brings the cost of a quiet compressor much more within range $$ wise. I found several in the $100 dollar range in a quick Amazon search.
So, I think the next question is, how do you calculate the nozzle requirement based on chamber size, and how do you calculate how big the chamber needs to be to start with?
Ive been reviewing my growing habits and needs today. If Im considering this radical a change in what Im doing, I may as well look at the entire setup to see if there are other improvements I can/should make at the same time.
My tent is small - 7.3 sq ft, but its larger than I need for my use. I got 422 gms dry weight on my first soil grow with 4 plants and about 544 gms on my second (hydro experiment) grow with three plants. That amount of product will last me well over a year at the rate Im currently using it. Actually, it might last me two years, so hi yields are not a concern. Im also not worried about running out of product if all the plants die in any particular grow. I make green dragon, and RSO into capsules. I dont smoke. I will hate it if I kill them off, but it wont hurt me other than the waste of money and time.
So, Im considering cutting back to one or two plants and reducing my tent to aprox 18" x 24" or maybe 24" x 24".
So, if I do 2 plants in a 24x24 tent, how do I calculate the ideal chamber size, and then size the nozzle(s)?
While Im at it, I am also flip-flopping back and forth between AA and HP with no air. I am starting to see advantages both ways and the costs dont see that different on a small scale. Plus if Im saving up, it wont matter.
I assume the chamber sizing and number of heads would be the same for both - just using different heads?
I am really liking the idea of doing this and being able to do the D2W thing - especially after finding out some disappointing information on why PH changes in a rez.
The relay is a solid state relay (ssr), the ones that come fitted to these timers as standard are just cheap and nasty mechanical relays..You need something that can reliably do 1500-2000 cycles a day every day for months The reliability goes for the compressor cos theres no mist without compressed air. Most compressors are rated by their free air output which is usually a lot more than what they`ll deliver at pressure. If noise is an issue, be sure to check the spec before buying, ideally it`ll be 30-40db, typical shop compressors are 90db+. The one in the pic above can run at any time of the day or night wothout anyone knowing its running. I have a homebrew compressor thats not as pretty but delivers 3x the output. Its about the same in terms of noise level but pulls more power and weighs considerably more. Here`s a noise test i did at 3am
With AA and HPA, the chamber depth and root temperature are the most important. A 2x2 area isnt a lot considering the outlay, dont forget you`ll you`ll need to put the compressor somewhere close by unless its a belt driven behemoth in the garage with a really long airline you can route to the growroom
The reliability goes for the compressor cos theres no mist without compressed air. Most compressors are rated by their free air output which is usually a lot more than what they`ll deliver at pressure. If noise is an issue, be sure to check the spec before buying, ideally it`ll be 30-40db, typical shop compressors are 90db+. The one in the pic above can run at any time of the day or night wothout anyone knowing its running. I have a homebrew compressor thats not as pretty but delivers 3x the output. Its about the same in terms of noise level but pulls more power and weighs considerably more. Here`s a noise test i did at 3am Thank you for the additional information!
I need to apologize for committing the cardinal newbie sin - asking too many questions before doing my own research. So, I have spent the last 2 days reading old posts here and on several other sites. My eyes may not recover for a while
Interestingly enough, your name seems to pop up unusually often - and always with some of the best information! Do you have a twin on OpenAg?
Im still trying to process all this new info, but its pretty clear that AA is not going to work for me for now. I really like the theory behind AA and the extra fine tuning you can do, but its a budget thing. I dont see any way to get by with a cheap air compressor or cheap heads and still do AA reliably.
I think I can do an inexpensive version of HPA for enough less to fit my budget if I stretch things a bit and dont tell the wife about the new charges on the card. Hopefully it will work well enough for me to play around and learn how it works first hand and decide if I want to keep with it.
Im working up a system diagram, and parts list now. When I get a little further along, I will start a new thread in the aero section - with more questions
If I could ask you two more questions before we end this thread about posts you ahve made that I dont quite understand.... these would apply to HPA rather than AA.
1) No Drip nozzles - you mentioned in one thread that you didnt need a solenoid if you used No Drip nozzles, but I was unsure if that only applied to systems without an accumulator? Im planning to have an accumulator in the system, then a pressure reducer/regulator, then the solenoid, then the nozzles. Do they need to be No Drip, or is it better that they be No Drip? The price difference is minor for a few plastic nozzles.
2) I am still clueless on how to size the root chamber, other than someone mentioning that you need about 2 basket balls per plant. Thats roughly a five gallon bucket, but that seems small for aero from what I have been reading. Can you give me some idea how to size the chamber on a per plant basis or some rough guidelines? I am sure I wont be growing more than two full size plants or possibly starting 3 or 4 clones or seeds at a time in the chamber - selecting the one or two best ones to finish with SCROG.
Im toying with the idea of using large smart pots for the root chamber - 30, 50, 100 gal? They are cheap, the fabric will air prune if set up the way you recommend, and they dont let much, if any light through.
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to my education
I need to apologize for committing the cardinal newbie sin - asking too many questions before doing my own research. So, I have spent the last 2 days reading old posts here and on several other sites. My eyes may not recover for a while
Interestingly enough, your name seems to pop up unusually often - and always with some of the best information! Do you have a twin on OpenAg?
Im still trying to process all this new info, but its pretty clear that AA is not going to work for me for now. I really like the theory behind AA and the extra fine tuning you can do, but its a budget thing. I dont see any way to get by with a cheap air compressor or cheap heads and still do AA reliably.
I think I can do an inexpensive version of HPA for enough less to fit my budget if I stretch things a bit and dont tell the wife about the new charges on the card. Hopefully it will work well enough for me to play around and learn how it works first hand and decide if I want to keep with it.
Im working up a system diagram, and parts list now. When I get a little further along, I will start a new thread in the aero section - with more questions
If I could ask you two more questions before we end this thread about posts you ahve made that I dont quite understand.... these would apply to HPA rather than AA.
1) No Drip nozzles - you mentioned in one thread that you didnt need a solenoid if you used No Drip nozzles, but I was unsure if that only applied to systems without an accumulator? Im planning to have an accumulator in the system, then a pressure reducer/regulator, then the solenoid, then the nozzles. Do they need to be No Drip, or is it better that they be No Drip? The price difference is minor for a few plastic nozzles.
2) I am still clueless on how to size the root chamber, other than someone mentioning that you need about 2 basket balls per plant. Thats roughly a five gallon bucket, but that seems small for aero from what I have been reading. Can you give me some idea how to size the chamber on a per plant basis or some rough guidelines? I am sure I wont be growing more than two full size plants or possibly starting 3 or 4 clones or seeds at a time in the chamber - selecting the one or two best ones to finish with SCROG.
Im toying with the idea of using large smart pots for the root chamber - 30, 50, 100 gal? They are cheap, the fabric will air prune if set up the way you recommend, and they dont let much, if any light through.
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to my education
Anti drip nozzles are the next best thing, response wise. to using a solenoid on each nozzle. When it comes to running drain to waste, mist run on can equate to more than the actual misting. Anti drip nozzles open at a set pressure and close at a lower pressure. Non anti drips will allow the line to pressurise and depressurise via the nozzles which impacts on the response and mist quality, they are not ideal for DTW because the spits and dribbles at the start and end of each misting cycle will add up to a lot of waste. As for chamber size, make it as big as the space will allow (within reason) and at least 16" deep then using the mist pattern of your chosen nozzles as a reference, figure the fewest number and best location that will provide full mist coverage for your planting layout. You shouldnt need more than 4 nozzles for a 2x2 (38 gal) chamber.
vostok
Well-Known Member
Current hydroponics implies deep water culture with buckets and pipes
Aero ponics using steam back in the day /1979 was tried with great but non persistent results
the nutes blocked the feed lines constantly
I've seen a few buddies trying this on each occasion I bought a bag around to chill them out
its totally stressful, worrying this and that
I fly organics first class too, and do sleep at night
good luck
Ok, that clears up a lot! Now I can get down to it and get started on the design and layout details - thanks again!!!
I can promise you'll achieve ideal mist size much simpler using a
$100 compressor W/regulator built in
$50 10 gallon air tank,
$25-$150 Solenoid (don't SKIMP ON THIS!! NEEDS To handle HEAT!! NO CHEAP PLASTIC!!OR SUIT YOURSELF!!!)
$15 AMAZON 12/24v. ..01sec relay short cycle timeR,
$20 compressor Air hosE
$20 3/8" or 1/4" Tubing
$30 couple t-valves pex John guest type quick- fit $200 per nozzle especially if want quality siphon
Nozzle, most require 80 psi approx. Where as the Microfog put out around 100 micron at 10-15 psi using little 5 gallon California air tank!
60psi at the pump was best when running 50ft air hose to Solenoid then to tee joint that split Into two separate nozzle, each going thru Dedicated shut off valves. For cleaning you'll need It Unless A quick HELLO facE Blast Of your basic AcidS alkalines n everyday base, intermixed Certainly caustic foggy morning mist RIGHT! Up the Ol' SHhNozzoLLA!! make ya think twicE! Hahahahha!
$100 compressor W/regulator built in
$50 10 gallon air tank,
$25-$150 Solenoid (don't SKIMP ON THIS!! NEEDS To handle HEAT!! NO CHEAP PLASTIC!!OR SUIT YOURSELF!!!)
$15 AMAZON 12/24v. ..01sec relay short cycle timeR,
$20 compressor Air hosE
$20 3/8" or 1/4" Tubing
$30 couple t-valves pex John guest type quick- fit $200 per nozzle especially if want quality siphon
Nozzle, most require 80 psi approx. Where as the Microfog put out around 100 micron at 10-15 psi using little 5 gallon California air tank!
60psi at the pump was best when running 50ft air hose to Solenoid then to tee joint that split Into two separate nozzle, each going thru Dedicated shut off valves. For cleaning you'll need It Unless A quick HELLO facE Blast Of your basic AcidS alkalines n everyday base, intermixed Certainly caustic foggy morning mist RIGHT! Up the Ol' SHhNozzoLLA!! make ya think twicE! Hahahahha!
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If go the air compressor/atomiser be sure to have as wide of root chamber as possible with plenty of headspace above the rootcrown. I like to face the plants diagonally or at least somewhat askewed so the mainstem is horizontal and 55 gallon, root chamber Tote is diagonally positioned Inside another Tote with entire corner edge which hangs into Bottom tote having as big of holes as manageable dotted back n forth along Both side of longest bottom Edge. Then make decent air gap in between so there's at least closer to zero resistance built each misting cycle, if can get slight negative pressure that s way i found best to have no stagnant pockets. But really as close to open air as possible! Oh if only could dig 15 foot deep Ten ft wide 50 ft long! Could have ten 30' beasts in 8 weeks from seed! Running off car batteries for solenoids and 20 55gal drums daisy chained could easily supply enough air for week Per fill up From generator!!
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