The far red thread

Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
These growmau5 puks each have 4 diodes running at 700mA. Would be a 2:2:0,75 ratio with one of them or 2:2:1,5 with two puks. I would start with one and add another one later if you have the feeling it could be more.
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Thanks, i assume all the numbers you’ve been discussing are per single qb96, correct?
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
I would also go with up to 8 additional far-red diodes per 96Elite to get a 2:2:1 ratio. But you need to know how much current each red and deep-red diodes get. If they only run with 150mA when fully ramped up you would only need 4
XP-Es at 300mA to get the desired 2:2:1 ratio.
I have not looked at the internal circuitry of the QB96 and do not know how much current each diode gets. The Nichias are 6v diodes as far as I know and can be operated on over 4w. Possible that each string runs with up to 500 or 600mA.
To finally figure out how much far-red diodes are needed we need to know how much current the red and deepreds on QB96 can get. It would be sufficient to know how many watts there are of each wavelength.

With far-red it's such a thing ..
Few peeps swear on it and love it, others do not believe in it and don't like it at all.
I think it will take a while for it to get widely accepted and until then we'll have to add it ourselves.
Almost similar to CRI80 and 90. Some believe in efficiency other prefer a better spectrum.

Producers like HLG must take this into account and decided to make products for both of this peeps.
Currently if someone wants far-red he has to add it himself but I'm pretty sure we will soon see more and more products with build-in far-red.
I must say, I like my far-red on a separate driver because this way I can use it for EoD treatment and when lights on. With build-in far-red diodes one would need a separate flower-trigger or at least discrete internal circuits to be able to use it for supplemental lighting "and" EoD treatment.

I'll take a closer look at the QB96. Maybe I can find information about the internal circuits. If not, we have to ask HLG at how much current the diodes are running.
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On the decision making about whether to include fr diodes or not, not sure how much credit they should get for trying to satisfy customers or fir being good businessmen.

They decided not to put fr in the 96, but don’t offer a standalone far red light,
potentially giving the equivalent of at least one puck (~$50) per qb96 worth of business to rapidled...a good marketing exec would have seen the opportunity for this complementary product, and would have pushed hard not to lose the revenue stream...

Not too smart bringing out a $150 product and giving your competitor $50 of it...i know, iknow it isn’t necessarily 1 for 1, but you get my point, hlg is unnecessarily boosting rapidled’s business, at their own expense.
 
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Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
Well, I think that HLG do not realize what they are doing. The Puks have been around for at least 2 years now, the QB35 just six months or so and the 96elite is just a few weeks old. Other thing is, far-red EoD treatment is widely accepted but not many user here believe in the emerson effect. The most think it would anyway not work well with higher intensities or they think, they would get unwanted stretch.
HLG is just starting to distribute products for supplemental lighting like the QB35 and I think they wanted at first to bring some standard products to the market. The more often they get asked about products that contain additional far-red the faster they will bring out something appropriate. Pretty sure they will offer different versions of the QB35 incl. far-red sometime.
I know, they have an own pick and place bot with reflow oven. I would contact them directly and ask for QB35's with red, deep- and far-red diodes. Companies like LED-Tech.de or Cutter.com.au allow their customers own layouts and willingly produce customized products. HLG is able to do the same if they want and I would ask them to do the same for me.

These puks are 50 bucks? Really? I was never interested in these puks because the footprint is to small for me.
4 XP-Es in far-red I can get for less than 10 bucks, such an LDD with 700mA is even only 5 bucks and one still need a 12v driver to power the LDD. A typical product that is designed for a high profit margin but not with the customer in mind.
I would rather use 4 XP-Es mounted on 1ft strip PCBs with no silly LDD but with a small constant current driver. These 2-3$ e3ay drivers(5x 1w, 300mA or 5x 3w, 600mA) are of course no Meanwells but they are available in two versions, silver and gold. The gold ones use higher quality capacitors and the likes and you can get them too with 5years warranty. (PF: 95, efficiency 89%). A strip would also have much better distribution. With 2ft distance the distribution of such a puk is okay but my lights usually hung only 1ft above the canopy. I would get a hotspot directly below the puk but sides and corners would get only half that much.

Theoretically, you could even remove 3 red and 3 deep red Lumileds yourself and swap them for far-red diodes. I do not know which footprint the solder joints have(looks like 3535) and if you can only use Lumileds or if its possible to use Cree or Osram but with a hot air blower diodes can be easily removed. I have reflow soldered on kitchen hot plates or in the baking-oven, that works pretty well. Instructions can be found on youtube, if interested.
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Randomblame said:
Well, I think that HLG do not realize what they are doing. The Puks have been around for at least 2 years now, the QB35 just six months or so and the 96elite is just a few weeks old. Other thing is, far-red EoD treatment is widely accepted but not many user here believe in the emerson effect. The most think it would anyway not work well with higher intensities or they think, they would get unwanted stretch.
HLG is just starting to distribute products for supplemental lighting like the QB35 and I think they wanted at first to bring some standard products to the market. The more often they get asked about products that contain additional far-red the faster they will bring out something appropriate. Pretty sure they will offer different versions of the QB35 incl. far-red sometime.
I know, they have an own pick and place bot with reflow oven. I would contact them directly and ask for QB35's with red, deep- and far-red diodes. Companies like LED-Tech.de or Cutter.com.au allow their customers own layouts and willingly produce customized products. HLG is able to do the same if they want and I would ask them to do the same for me.

These puks are 50 bucks? Really? I was never interested in these puks because the footprint is to small for me.
4 XP-Es in far-red I can get for less than 10 bucks, such an LDD with 700mA is even only 5 bucks and one still need a 12v driver to power the LDD. A typical product that is designed for a high profit margin but not with the customer in mind.
I would rather use 4 XP-Es mounted on 1ft strip PCBs with no silly LDD but with a small constant current driver. These 2-3$ e3ay drivers(5x 1w, 300mA or 5x 3w, 600mA) are of course no Meanwells but they are available in two versions, silver and gold. The gold ones use higher quality capacitors and the likes and you can get them too with 5years warranty. (PF: 95, efficiency 89%). A strip would also have much better distribution. With 2ft distance the distribution of such a puk is okay but my lights usually hung only 1ft above the canopy. I would get a hotspot directly below the puk but sides and corners would get only half that much.

Theoretically, you could even remove 3 red and 3 deep red Lumileds yourself and swap them for far-red diodes. I do not know which footprint the solder joints have(looks like 3535) and if you can only use Lumileds or if its possible to use Cree or Osram but with a hot air blower diodes can be easily removed. I have reflow soldered on kitchen hot plates or in the baking-oven, that works pretty well. Instructions can be found on youtube, if interested.
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The qb 35s do have fr, but not the 96s.

The pucks are $29, but the required lenses are $8 and the drivers $8.

Someone needs to come out with some simple 2 ft strips of far red.

As far as non-believers on emerson, imo they’re simply dumbasses...i’m not sure on initiator, but emerson is a slam dunk.

Last night i tried to run a spectrum on my far red bar and couldn’t get a reading. I took the reading right at lightsout, cuz the meter is lit up. I’ll do some more testing when the plants are done.

My meter should pick up light all the way to 780, and in the first spectrum above you can see the qb35 far red peak. Maybe part of the reason for doing 15min of fr at lightsout is cuz it takes time for a cold fr to build intensity.

We need more guys with good meters, especially spectrum, to get beyond theoretical electrical/light calculations and on to quantifying real-life photons and effects on plants...

How’s your spectrometer build going? Please take pics of steps, if you can, and put together a bill of materials, to post as a build thread if it turns out to be successful, i bet a lot of growers would love to have an affordable one.
 
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Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
Or_Gro said:
The qb 35s do have fr, but not the 96s.

The pucks are $29, but the required lenses are $8 and the drivers $8.

Someone needs to come out with some simple 2 ft strips of far red.

As far as non-believers on emerson, imo they’re simply dumbasses...i’m not sure on initiator, but emerson is a slam dunk.

Last night i tried to run a spectrum on my far red bar and couldn’t get a reading. I took the reading right at lightsout, cuz the meter is lit up. I’ll do some more testing when the plants are done.

My meter should pick up light all the way to 780, and in the first spectrum above you can see the qb35 far red peak. Maybe part of the reason for doing 15min of fr at lightsout is cuz it takes time for a cold fr to build intensity.

We need more guys with good meters, especially spectrum, to get beyond theoretical electrical/light calculations and on to quantifying real-life photons and effects on plants...

How’s your spectrometer build going? Please take pics of steps, if you can, and put together a bill of materials, to post as a build thread if it turns out to be successful, i bet a lot of growers would love to have an affordable one.
Click to expand...
I have not bought something yet but there are various cheap kits available. Some based of cardboard, a DVD blank and smartphone cam (like below) others costs up to 85 $ and based on Lego bricks, defraction grating and a RasPi webcam. How-to's come with these kits and one can find useful vids on youtube.
Currently other things have priority like rebilding my light. I've a new HLG-320H-C1750 to power all COBs and strips with one driver and I want the drivers outside of the tent and need to build a driver housing with AV meters, Sonoffs and such things. But on the other hand the 5 new ladies are already waiting for bigger pots. Spectrometer is not that important currently and I'm always on small budget because I'm already retired because of an accident and bechterew's disease.
 

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Or_Gro

Or_Gro

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Sorry, prob wrong place, but if you’re interested in qb96, we’ve got a build/mapping/grow thread going, on gc, here’s first build, 96s arrived this morning for @soil2coco:

“Bright and hot. The heat sinks throw some heat.

So here’s the deal after some rough testing

75000 lux at 12” directly under. Drops to 60000 as you move out from center. Only about 35000-40000 lux at the perimeter

38000 lux at 18” directly under center. 27500-30000 lux around the perimeter”



You’re looking at $200 for bd & heatsinks in about a 2’x3’ space...720ppf @ 2x150w, ~1300ppfd...

I got a number of them coming for mapping ppfd w/wo rapidled pucks. Will create a thread and posts ppfd maps when done, but the gc thread will be where realtime info shows up...
 
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Randomblame

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
Or_Gro said:
Interesting...https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/led-modules/industrial-light-module/h-influx/#

https://octopart.com/sl-b8v2n70laww-samsung-89817905
Click to expand...
Yeah, H-influx has the same LM301b diodes like the new QBv2. But its maybe a lower binning.
Samsung still refuses to provide information about the used binnings.
Samsung Q-series strips also use LM301b but driven at only 90mA instead of 125/130mA on H-influx. Max current of Q-series is 900mA because they have less diodes(half that much). For this reason one need twice as much Q-strips but you can save a few bugs when you can take +25pcs.
The most intersting and available LED strip currently is the H-influx L06 with 88 diodes on a single row 2ft strip. 16 more diodes like F-series and when driven at half current you get 200-220lm/w depending on the used spectrum.
At 700mA each diode gets only 63,6mA and you can use the efficiency numbers from LM301b datasheet and calculate the whole fixture using Sammys calculator tool.
But they are significantly more expensive than F-strips which deliver 185-210lm/w at the same current.
I've already thought about swapping my 20 F-strips, lol!

http://www.samsung.com/global/business/led/support/tools/calculator-pkg
 

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Or_Gro

Or_Gro

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OLD MOTHER SATIVA said:
what area is that puck good for covering?
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@Randomblame probably can give you a good answer based on the numbers, i’d go with 2 pucks in a 4x4 for initiator effect.

For emerson effect, you use it in combo with red and deep red, so it depends on ratio of those two to far red. I’m running qb 35s which have 8 red, 6 deep red, 4 far red diodes per strip. I’d run in these proportions unless you have better info.
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Or_Gro said:
@Randomblame probably can give you a good answer based on the numbers, i’d go with 2 pucks in a 4x4 for initiator effect.

For emerson effect, you use it in combo with red and deep red, so it depends on ratio of those two to far red. I’m running qb 35s which have 8 red, 6 deep red, 4 far red diodes per strip. I’d run in these proportions unless you have better info.
Click to expand...
If you need alot of fr, you might take a look at the growbright 4’ far red bar.
https://www.htgsupply.com/products/growbright-far-red-led-light-bar
It has 28 fr diodes, puck has 4 diodes, wavelength is slightly diff. I’m running one bar, for initiator effect, in my 4x4. Perhaps @Randomblame has thoughts on this too.

My ignorant starting point is growbright is about 7x output of puck: if so, big $ diff $130 (and better layout) for growbright, 7x upto $50 for pucks.

Puck specs:https://www.rapidled.com/far-red-initiator-puck/
 
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