QB96 Elite V2 w/ SSTX heatsink question

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
The trick is factoring in the spread.

That 12 umol/sec is only directly under the light, 12-18 inches away it drops off dramatically, as can be implied by the spectra above. Whereas, the bar which is only 4 umol/sec directly under the light is spread evenly across the canopy.

So, it is important to factor in the intensity spread, rather than simply taking the peak spot intensity.

But, with the target intensity (2000-4000 umol) you provided, a thoughtful grower can dial in their exposure time, if they can approximate (by measuring) average intensity spread.

For example, @4umol/sec spread, you’d need (2000/4/60= 8.3 mins to 4000/4/60=16.7 mins) of far red for lightsoff initiator effect).

Finally, while it is a no-brainer to simply leave far red on for a few mins during lightsoff after using it all day w/ red & deep red for emerson effect, you didn’t answer my question re: what is your opinion on relative contribution of emerson vs initiator effects? Thanks.
Well, these are two different effects, both of which have their uses.
Together with other light you can make use of the Emerson effect and will get higher growth rates depending on the total amount of light. Less light strong effect, much light less strong effect. It is a path that mother nature has devised to enable growth in low-light areas.
To date, there are no tests (except in laboratories) that clearly show which wavelengths and how much of them work best. We can only try to minic the sun. 680 and 710nm theoretically have the most powerful effect as these wavelengths do not need to be converted and directly address PS-I and -II.

When red light strikes a leaf it turns phytochrome red on and phytochrome far-red off. If far-red hits a leaf it turns phyR off and phyFR on. In nature, leaves get both so phyR and PhyFR are permanently switched on and off, on and off.
This somehow compensates for the excitation states of the two photosynthetic systems (PS-I + PS-II). Missing far-red so leads to an imbalance to which the plant can adapt only to a certain point.

EoD treatment causes phyFR to be stay on and phyR to stay off. This is a clear signal for the plant to immediately switch off photosyntosis and switch to night mode. If she does not get far-red at the end of the day, she will first "wait" until it gets bright again(maybe its only shade from dark clouds) and switch to night mode after about 2 hours. This 2h are wasted with waiting and if you use EoD treatment you can make use of this 2h.
Let's calculate with 10 weeks of flowering and 14/10h per day. 70x 2h are 140h or 5.83 days, at 1000 μmol/s/m² and 14 hours a day that's around 251Mol more light.
You can use it to shorten the 10 weeks by ~5.83 days if you stay with 12/12h.

All these effects are regulated via phyR and phyFR. While the initiator effect has the same effect on all short-day plants and is not dependent on the daily amount of light, the Emerson effect is dependent on the total amount of light available. With 1000μmol/s/m² the Emerson effect should be relatively small, maybe 1 or 2%, at only 500μMol/s ppfd it should be more 5 or more % maybe. If you use phyFR to extend the daylength by 2h the plants gets 3275Mol instead of 3024Mol in light, that is about 8.3% more light which theoretically can lead to 8.3% more yield.

So I see clear advantages with the inititator effect since we usually do not work with intensities around the 500μmol/s ppfd. But even if the Emerson effect is pretty small there are other beneficial effects from more deep- and far-red and these have probably even more effect.
I'm sure all these mechanisms are somehow connected, how exactly can I not say. But you can easily use all these effects by adding some red and far-red to it or simply using CRI90 or higher. By combining this with EoD treatment you can combine all these effects and maybe get rates of increase of up to 10% at best. Usually white has already red and deep red but less far-red. You could btw just add far-red to make use of all these effects.
For a red, deep- and far-red boost I would use a 1:1:1,5 ratio or maybe even 1:1:2. This depends on how much of these wavelength are already available before you add more of them. But I would not try to minic the nature and use a 55:45 ratio.
In nature, these values vary greatly due to weather conditions. In indoor applications I would not add more than 20% to white light. Too much red for example causes the pistils to dry up sooner and speeds up the ripening; apart from that they look different and can turn orange. Like with all other growing aspects its a balance act and one need to figure out what works best.

I hope that answers your question, bro.
 

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
Can anyone give me some numbers about FR... I have 4x4 tent, 5 XPE diodes on 500 mA driver. So around 5W I think (2.1V x 0.5A). Each diode cover 2x2 and one is in the center. I will run them for Emerson and for EOD with Samsung 3000K Q strips.
And what is optimal ratio?
I have 500W of Q strips driven at 525 mA (183 lm/W) in 3000K, 6x 660nm Cree's at the same current (x2 lights, so whole tent gets 12x 660nm Cree's at 525 mA) and 5x FR as mentioned above.
Thats roughly a 3: 1 ratio deep- to far-red and not the optimal ratio for an Emerson booster but you still profit from other beneficial effects. Deep-red has the most impact on PS and makes the whole light more efficient and only a little far-red is already helpful to even out PS-I and -II.
A 1:1,5 ratio would be better because 3000°k has already a lot of red but Emerson effect is anyway pretty small and single diodes expensive. I've just added far-red to get a better red : far-red ratio and the CRI80/90 mix gives me a wider red area. There are different ways to add more of these wavelength and even if the ratio is not perfect your plants will profit from the better spectrum.

There are a few pdf's about this topic I've uploaded in the far-red thread.
 

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Well, these are two different effects, both of which have their uses.
Together with other light you can make use of the Emerson effect and will get higher growth rates depending on the total amount of light. Less light strong effect, much light less strong effect. It is a path that mother nature has devised to enable growth in low-light areas.
To date, there are no tests (except in laboratories) that clearly show which wavelengths and how much of them work best. We can only try to minic the sun. 680 and 710nm theoretically have the most powerful effect as these wavelengths do not need to be converted and directly address PS-I and -II.

When red light strikes a leaf it turns phytochrome red on and phytochrome far-red off. If far-red hits a leaf it turns phyR off and phyFR on. In nature, leaves get both so phyR and PhyFR are permanently switched on and off, on and off.
This somehow compensates for the excitation states of the two photosynthetic systems (PS-I + PS-II). Missing far-red so leads to an imbalance to which the plant can adapt only to a certain point.

EoD treatment causes phyFR to be stay on and phyR to stay off. This is a clear signal for the plant to immediately switch off photosyntosis and switch to night mode. If she does not get far-red at the end of the day, she will first "wait" until it gets bright again(maybe its only shade from dark clouds) and switch to night mode after about 2 hours. This 2h are wasted with waiting and if you use EoD treatment you can make use of this 2h.
Let's calculate with 10 weeks of flowering and 14/10h per day. 70x 2h are 140h or 5.83 days, at 1000 μmol/s/m² and 14 hours a day that's around 251Mol more light.
You can use it to shorten the 10 weeks by ~5.83 days if you stay with 12/12h.

All these effects are regulated via phyR and phyFR. While the initiator effect has the same effect on all short-day plants and is not dependent on the daily amount of light, the Emerson effect is dependent on the total amount of light available. With 1000μmol/s/m² the Emerson effect should be relatively small, maybe 1 or 2%, at only 500μMol/s ppfd it should be more 5 or more % maybe. If you use phyFR to extend the daylength by 2h the plants gets 3275Mol instead of 3024Mol in light, that is about 8.3% more light which theoretically can lead to 8.3% more yield.

So I see clear advantages with the inititator effect since we usually do not work with intensities around the 500μmol/s ppfd. But even if the Emerson effect is pretty small there are other beneficial effects from more deep- and far-red and these have probably even more effect.
I'm sure all these mechanisms are somehow connected, how exactly can I not say. But you can easily use all these effects by adding some red and far-red to it or simply using CRI90 or higher. By combining this with EoD treatment you can combine all these effects and maybe get rates of increase of up to 10% at best. Usually white has already red and deep red but less far-red. You could btw just add far-red to make use of all these effects.
For a red, deep- and far-red boost I would use a 1:1:1,5 ratio or maybe even 1:1:2. This depends on how much of these wavelength are already available before you add more of them. But I would not try to minic the nature and use a 55:45 ratio.
In nature, these values vary greatly due to weather conditions. In indoor applications I would not add more than 20% to white light. Too much red for example causes the pistils to dry up sooner and speeds up the ripening; apart from that they look different and can turn orange. Like with all other growing aspects its a balance act and one need to figure out what works best.

I hope that answers your question, bro.
Tour de Force, comes to mind...thanks RB!

When are you gonna write the book?

In earlier discussions i thought you mentioned 2:2:1 rather than 1:1:1.5. If so, i’m interested in why this has changed.
 
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Randomblame

Well-Known Member
Another question for you @Randomblame, the 96s have a healthy blue peak vs the 288s (larger red, of course).

How do you think these 96s would do for veg? Would supplementing w blue do much? If so, what would you recommend?
I would still call it an all-in-one spectrum because it has already enough blue for compact growth and good branching. (It needs only ~10PAR/w/m² blue wavelength to get compact growth)
I'm using 3000°k only as all in one since 2 years now and I really like this spectrum. The plants look like grown under natural sunlight. With colder spectrums 5000-6500°k the plants look almost like grown under blurples. Extremely short and branch growth is almost horizontal(70-80°). For height limited areas this may offer benefits but for "normal" heights I prefer longer internodes and branches at least at a 45-60° angle to the trunk.
But like ever there are exceptions.
For example for haze strains a 5000°k spectrum used as all-in-one can make sense and with the new purple/nearUVA + phosphor whites the sprectrums get better and better.
Nichia Optisolis 5000°k/CRI99 spectrum looks very good and achieves 61% efficiency(RFx00, RFx0f, based on purple 420nm pumps, no 480nm hole).
It sounds funny but purple wavelength are optimal for purple strains because they help to emphasize the colors, the taste and the aroma of the plants. In commercial horticulture purple and UVA are used for purple basil but also for medicinal herbs as it enhances flavonoids, antioxidants and other ingredients of medical use.
Combined with the extremely efficient Osram Square deep-reds (3.91μmol/j at 700mA) that would be the non-plus-ultra in my opinion.
Also the 3000°K/CRI98 looks very promissing for plant lighting( peak at 660nm, also RFx00, RFx0f ) and is even more efficient like 5000°k because the blue diodes used for the lower kelvins are a little more efficient like the purple ones in 5000°k diodes.
But like ever with the good stuff both diodes are not cheap. Cutter.com.au has already Optisolis diodes available and offer them for strips and boards and LED-tech.de has the Osram diodes. Grow strips with Osram Oslon and Square diodes are available and you can ask them for customizing because they are fully equipped from pick and place bot to an integrating sphere. Many customer designs are already available and they are also contractual partners of Nichia.
 

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Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
I would still call it an all-in-one spectrum because it has already enough blue for compact growth and good branching. (It needs only ~10PAR/w/m² blue wavelength to get compact growth)
I'm using 3000°k only as all in one since 2 years now and I really like this spectrum. The plants look like grown under natural sunlight. With colder spectrums 5000-6500°k the plants look almost like grown under blurples. Extremely short and branch growth is almost horizontal(70-80°). For height limited areas this may offer benefits but for "normal" heights I prefer longer internodes and branches at least at a 45-60° angle to the trunk.
But like ever there are exceptions.
For example for haze strains a 5000°k spectrum used as all-in-one can make sense and with the new purple/nearUVA + phosphor whites the sprectrums get better and better.
Nichia Optisolis 5000°k/CRI99 spectrum looks very good and achieves 61% efficiency(RFx00, RFx0f, based on purple 420nm pumps, no 480nm hole).
It sounds funny but purple wavelength are optimal for purple strains because they help to emphasize the colors, the taste and the aroma of the plants. In commercial horticulture purple and UVA are used for purple basil but also for medicinal herbs as it enhances flavonoids, antioxidants and other ingredients of medical use.
Combined with the extremely efficient Osram Square deep-reds (3.91μmol/j at 700mA) that would be the non-plus-ultra in my opinion.
Also the 3000°K/CRI98 looks very promissing for plant lighting( peak at 660nm, also RFx00, RFx0f ) and is even more efficient like 5000°k because the blue diodes used for the lower kelvins are a little more efficient like the purple ones in 5000°k diodes.
But like ever with the good stuff both diodes are not cheap. Cutter.com.au has already Optisolis diodes available and offer them for strips and boards and LED-tech.de has the Osram diodes. Grow strips with Osram Oslon and Square diodes are available and you can ask them for customizing because they are fully equipped from pick and place bot to an integrating sphere. Many customer designs are already available and they are also contractual partners of Nichia.
Thanks.

Ok , gonna prop/veg the smackdown clone mothers under 96s, see what comes of it.
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
Guys, I was pointed to an alert on the HLG webpage for the 96s saying the thermal pad is not adhesive and only tacky, hence they must be screwed onto the heatsinks. My holes on the 96s don't line up with any on the heatsinks, anyone else struck this?
FC
 

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Guys, I was pointed to an alert on the HLG webpage for the 96s saying the thermal pad is not adhesive and only tacky, hence they must be screwed onto the heatsinks. My holes on the 96s don't line up with any on the heatsinks, anyone else struck this?
FC
Turn bd 90 degrees and try again....
 

pulpoinspace

Well-Known Member
Guys, I was pointed to an alert on the HLG webpage for the 96s saying the thermal pad is not adhesive and only tacky, hence they must be screwed onto the heatsinks. My holes on the 96s don't line up with any on the heatsinks, anyone else struck this?
FC
it mindfucked me for a minute too, but no mine were correct. and actually the only holes drilled on my heatsinks were for the 96s

the boards are a rectangle that is longer left to right, and the holes form a rectangle that is longer top to bottom
 

pulpoinspace

Well-Known Member
This is your heat sink, mine is different, all the holes are around the ctr only.....
ooh i see. which heatsinks are you using out of curiousity?
i ordered the sstx heatsinks for this very reason rather than drill/tap holes in 180mm alibaba heatsinks i already owned,
which is the only solution i could think of. if you cant drill/tap yourself maybe whoever you got the heatsinks from will drill/tap for you?
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
Thanks Stephen, hopefully I don't have to rewire as I made the wire pretty snug, pain to have to pull from tent and mess with again but no worries.
Do you need the thermal pads if you are screwing to the heatsinks now?
 

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
I would still call it an all-in-one spectrum because it has already enough blue for compact growth and good branching. (It needs only ~10PAR/w/m² blue wavelength to get compact growth)
I'm using 3000°k only as all in one since 2 years now and I really like this spectrum. The plants look like grown under natural sunlight. With colder spectrums 5000-6500°k the plants look almost like grown under blurples. Extremely short and branch growth is almost horizontal(70-80°). For height limited areas this may offer benefits but for "normal" heights I prefer longer internodes and branches at least at a 45-60° angle to the trunk.
But like ever there are exceptions.
For example for haze strains a 5000°k spectrum used as all-in-one can make sense and with the new purple/nearUVA + phosphor whites the sprectrums get better and better.
Nichia Optisolis 5000°k/CRI99 spectrum looks very good and achieves 61% efficiency(RFx00, RFx0f, based on purple 420nm pumps, no 480nm hole).
It sounds funny but purple wavelength are optimal for purple strains because they help to emphasize the colors, the taste and the aroma of the plants. In commercial horticulture purple and UVA are used for purple basil but also for medicinal herbs as it enhances flavonoids, antioxidants and other ingredients of medical use.
Combined with the extremely efficient Osram Square deep-reds (3.91μmol/j at 700mA) that would be the non-plus-ultra in my opinion.
Also the 3000°K/CRI98 looks very promissing for plant lighting( peak at 660nm, also RFx00, RFx0f ) and is even more efficient like 5000°k because the blue diodes used for the lower kelvins are a little more efficient like the purple ones in 5000°k diodes.
But like ever with the good stuff both diodes are not cheap. Cutter.com.au has already Optisolis diodes available and offer them for strips and boards and LED-tech.de has the Osram diodes. Grow strips with Osram Oslon and Square diodes are available and you can ask them for customizing because they are fully equipped from pick and place bot to an integrating sphere. Many customer designs are already available and they are also contractual partners of Nichia.
Based on my measurement, the color temp of a 96 is close to 3500K:

BD429119-3B1A-4EA1-A267-D48B0E775CA9.jpeg
 

Randomblame

Well-Known Member
Tour de Force, comes to mind...thanks RB!

When are you gonna write the book?

In earlier discussions i thought you mentioned 2:2:1 rather than 1:1:1.5. If so, i’m interested in why this has changed.
With CRI80 there are less red-and deep red wavelength and you need more of them, with CRI90 you get more red, deep- and far-red and you need a different ratio. The elite96 is already CRI90 or near to that but has no increased far-red area with all the red and deep red plus CRI80 and has less far-red compared to CRI90 phosphor. Therefor I recommend a little more far-red and less red and deep red.
I should have said it earlier but my posts are getting too long sometimes and I leave something away that I should have mentioned.

I'm already thinking about building one myself, dimmable and maybe 30w max, should be enough for my little area. I get a booner from these Osram Square series and can't wait to get my fingers on them. They are also available in white/CRI70/80/90. 2700°K/CRI90 + a few deep-reds would add a lot more red and deep red but would still look white and for more far-red I could still use the 10w from the flower initiator. I also have 4 CRI97 Vero13 decor series COB's which I could supplement with a few Osram Square .. Hmm! So many options and so little room to play ...
I should have moved to Cali when it was still possible, lol!

I would probably use it from the end of the stretch or a little earlier but not from the beginning. And I would increase it slowly with less watts in week 3 to avoid stress and max it out from week 5 or 6 till the end for maximum use.

I'm really curious what CRI values such a setup would have. Is it possible to set the spectrometer to display CRI values too?
 
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Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
With CRI80 there are less red-and deep red wavelength and you need more of them, with CRI90 you get more red, deep- and far-red and you need a different ratio. The elite96 is already CRI90 or near to that but has no increased far-red area with all the red and deep red plus CRI80 and has less far-red compared to CRI90 phosphor. Therefor I recommend a little more far-red and less red and deep red.
I should have said it earlier but my posts are getting too long sometimes and I leave something away that I should have mentioned.

I'm already thinking about building one myself, dimmable and maybe 30w max, should be enough for my little area. I get a booner from these Osram Square series and can't wait to get my fingers on them. They are also available in white/CRI70/80/90. 2700°K/CRI90 + a few deep-reds would add a lot more red and deep red but would still look white and for more far-red I could still use the 10w from the flower initiator. I also have 4 CRI97 Vero13 decor series COB's which I could supplement with a few Osram Square .. Hmm! So many options and so little room to play ...
I should have moved to Cali when it was still possible, lol!

I would probably use it from the end of the stretch or a little earlier but not from the beginning. And I would increase it slowly with less watts in week 3 to avoid stress and max it out from week 5 or 6 till the end for maximum use.

I'm really curious what CRI values such a setup would have. Is it possible to set the spectrometer to display CRI values too?
Ok, now i think i understand: 2:2:1 for cri 80; 1:1:1.5 for cri 90.

I have a feeling we are on the verge of a proliferation of hort led options...perhaps even too many candy choices in the candy shop...

Yes the meter does cri, i’ll get a reading.l from 96.

At the top of the 2nd page, you’ll see the available modes:
https://www.sekonic.com/portals/0/products/c-7000_leaflet_english_20150824.pdf
 

Dave455

Well-Known Member
Ok, now i think i understand: 2:2:1 for cri 80; 1:1:1.5 for cri 90.

I have a feeling we are on the verge of a proliferation of hort led options...perhaps even too many candy choices in the candy shop...

Yes the meter does cri, i’ll get a reading.l from 96.

At the top of the 2nd page, you’ll see the available modes:
https://www.sekonic.com/portals/0/products/c-7000_leaflet_english_20150824.pdf
Only to find out a 3500k board would suffice with nothing other than added reptile UVA/UVB in flower !
 
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