Three Florida Recounts

[schuylaar]

Florida makes headlines seemingly every year. In my half century of living in the United States, I've never seen anybody, including third world countries, have the election problems that Florida has on a regular basis.

this is a small sample of what an out of control infected state is like..you are now seeing what it will be like everywhere if this infection is allowed to spread untreated..we live it, we've been living it under GOP rule.

this is rick scott's state all the blame goes to him- he's overseeing his own election..banana republic did you say?

 

[Bugeye]

Broward missed the deadline by 2 minutes, lol. Might be time to get a new election official.

 

[UncleBuck]

Broward missed the deadline by 2 minutes, lol. Might be time to get a new election official.

Shut up

 

[schuylaar]

Broward missed the deadline by 2 minutes, lol. Might be time to get a new election official.

it's unfortunate. i wouldn't have lol'd, though.

 

[Bugeye]

it's unfortunate. i wouldn't have lol'd, though.

I understand. When you don't live in Florida it is easier to appreciate the comedy of your elections. It is not like this is something new, every FL election is a mess.

 

[too larry]

. . . . . . We have close elections in Oregon too. But none of the controversy. . . . . . .

Good thing you guys don't have really close elections. . . . . . .

From BallotPedia:

Oregon elections, 2018

This page is an overview of the 2018 Oregon elections, including your sample ballot, a list of the offices up for election covered by Ballotpedia, links to election results, state election dates and deadlines, and an FAQ section.

<< Oregon elections, 2017 | Oregon elections, 2019 >>
Results
Editor's note: As of November 17, 2018, complete vote totals were not available because this election used a vote-by-mail process. Due to the delay between ballots being mailed by voters and received by election officials, the outcome of this election remains unclear. Ballotpedia is continuing to monitor this election and will update this article on the day that the full election results become available.

 

[too larry]

I guess all of you know the outcome of the first recount. The Governor's race was not within 0.25%, so it's over. But now a manual recount for the other two races have begun. What a manual recount does is count the over and under votes.

 

[potroastV2]

What a manual recount does is count the over and under votes.

I think it will be a defensive struggle ...


so I will take the under.

 

[schuylaar]

I guess all of you know the outcome of the first recount. The Governor's race was not within 0.25%, so it's over. But now a manual recount for the other two races have begun. What a manual recount does is count the over and under votes.

this whole thing was sketchy and cost gillum and possibly (probably) nelson, the election.

after seeing who got turned away on the rolls, i have no faith in their system here (or snipes) any longer.

thanks, rick scott!

 

[too larry]

I think it will be a defensive struggle ...


so I will take the under.

Up to now, the vote has changed very little. As is the norm. Now is when the mythical "making up votes out of thin air" could in theory happen. This is where it goes from a science to an art. Each county's Canvasing Board gets to decide Voter Intent on the under and over votes. In small counties it's the SOE, Chairman of the County Commissioners and the County Judge. In bigger counties they appoint others to help speed up the process. Mostly it will be cases where the voter circled the oval instead of filling it in. Or tried to erase and filled in a different oval. In those two cases, voter intent is pretty easy to read.

Each party in the runoff has the right to have representatives at each of the counties to watch the process.

 

[Fogdog]

Good thing you guys don't have really close elections. . . . . . .

From BallotPedia:

Oregon elections, 2018

This page is an overview of the 2018 Oregon elections, including your sample ballot, a list of the offices up for election covered by Ballotpedia, links to election results, state election dates and deadlines, and an FAQ section.

<< Oregon elections, 2017 | Oregon elections, 2019 >>
Results
Editor's note: As of November 17, 2018, complete vote totals were not available because this election used a vote-by-mail process. Due to the delay between ballots being mailed by voters and received by election officials, the outcome of this election remains unclear. Ballotpedia is continuing to monitor this election and will update this article on the day that the full election results become available.

What I said:

". . . . . . We have close elections in Oregon too. But none of the controversy. . . . . ."

I can't tell from your post which race you are referring to that hasn't been decided yet. Are you referring to District 26 state Senate race which is in fact down to just a few votes? It's not exactly controversial but yes it's down to 266 votes difference out of 52,000 votes cast and will be recounted.

I do apologize for being overly exercised about Florida's controversial elections this year and worded my posts as if somehow they were YOUR fault. That was foolish of me.

The difference as I see it between Florida's system and Oregon's is WHY the incredibly close race in OR Senate 26 is NOT controversial although close. Ballots were all mailed in ahead of the election day or dropped off at designated boxes on the day of the election. There were no long lines at machine voting centers. No funky ballots. No confused elderly people giving bad information at voting centers. Nobody was turned away at a voting center. No paperless ballot machines.

The recount consists of going over a pile of marked ballots mailed from signed-and-verified envelopes. Observers from both sides are able to watch the and cite errors if they see them. Envelopes with a signature issue are set aside and the voter is contacted to give them a chance at resolving the issue. It's pretty straightforward. I don't know why anybody would want to have voting machines in an election given all the problems seen in other states.

 

[too larry]

this whole thing was sketchy and cost gillum and possibly (probably) nelson, the election.

after seeing who got turned away on the rolls, i have no faith in their system here (or snipes) any longer.

thanks, rick scott!

Both had an uphill battle. Gillum surprised me doing as well as he did. Nelson is a big time prick. Folks in the business can't stand him. When he has to deal with the local SOE's, he is a condescending bitch. Plus he looks like death warmed over. The only reason I can figure him getting more votes than Gillum is that there are a few old timer racist Democrats still around.

No one likes to hear this, but voters are responsible for making sure they are on the rolls before election day. Young folks especially move a lot, and don't update their voter registration. Or they don't vote for a few elections, and they get purged. Voter suppression is a real thing, but it is made easier by folks not knowing their rights and responsibilities.

As for Snipes, those folks elected her. It takes a lot for a Constitutional Officer to be removed from office. Malfeasance has to be proved. She is a fuck up, but I don't think she's doing it on purpose.

 

[too larry]

What I said:

". . . . . . We have close elections in Oregon too. But none of the controversy. . . . . ."

I can't tell from your post which race you are referring to that hasn't been decided yet. Are you referring to District 26 state Senate race which is in fact down to just a few votes? It's not exactly controversial but yes it's down to 266 votes difference out of 52,000 votes cast and will be recounted.

I do apologize for being overly exercised about Florida's controversial elections this year and worded my posts as if somehow they were YOUR fault. That was foolish of me.

The difference as I see it between Florida's system and Oregon's is WHY the incredibly close race in OR Senate 26 is NOT controversial although close. Ballots were all mailed in ahead of the election day or dropped off at designated boxes on the day of the election. There were no long lines at machine voting centers. No funky ballots. No confused elderly people giving bad information at voting centers. Nobody was turned away at a voting center. No paperless ballot machines.

The recount consists of going over a pile of marked ballots mailed from signed-and-verified envelopes. Observers from both sides are able to watch the and cite errors if they see them. Envelopes with a signature issue are set aside and the voter is contacted to give them a chance at resolving the issue. It's pretty straightforward. I don't know why anybody would want to have voting machines in an election given all the problems seen in other states.

Exactly. There is a set plan for any recounts. Just like in Florida. You guys have until November 14th {or there about. I can't remember all the election laws} to sort out signature problems on ballets. In Florida we have a few days to sort out signature problems on mail ballots.

My point was that if your senate and/or governor race had ended in a tie, the whole country would be watching your every move until the recounts were over. And the lawsuits just come with the territory. Both sides file them. It's always like that in recounts.

Florida is the 3rd largest state and has been almost a dead heat in every big race for the last 20 years. The world is going to pay close attention until we get it behind us.

 

[too larry]

It looks like Bay County counted 121 email and fax votes after being told not to by Secretary of State. This one should be an easy one to decide.

http://www.tampabay.com/florida-politics/buzz/2018/11/14/bill-nelson-sues-over-florida-hurricane-victims-fax-email-voting/

 

[Fogdog]

Exactly. There is a set plan for any recounts. Just like in Florida. You guys have until November 14th {or there about. I can't remember all the election laws} to sort out signature problems on ballets. In Florida we have a few days to sort out signature problems on mail ballots.

My point was that if your senate and/or governor race had ended in a tie, the whole country would be watching your every move until the recounts were over. And the lawsuits just come with the territory. Both sides file them. It's always like that in recounts.

Florida is the 3rd largest state and has been almost a dead heat in every big race for the last 20 years. The world is going to pay close attention until we get it behind us.

If you look at my complaints about Florida's system they mostly consist of how the state's leaders use it to suppress votes. I totally agree that a Florida hand recount of the paper ballots on file can be just as good as a hand recount anywhere else. The main problem as I see it is votes that were prevented by dirty tricks.

For example, reports about the funky ballots in Broward County that caused thousands of voters to under vote in the Senatorial election. Republicans are in control of the elections system and it was a Republican appointee who designed that ballot. Connecting this dot to another which says that a proportionally high number of Democrats live in that Broward County should give one pause. As one Democratic party official said: "Placing the contest on the left corner of the ballot, underneath the instructions, doesn’t fall in line with guidelines established by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission." Now, Republicans are arguing that they should get all those votes. Seems fishy to me.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-manual-recount-friday-20181116-story.html

Also, there are references to machines that don't produce a paper record in Florida, as in this article:
https://www.upi.com/Dozens-of-states-tighten-election-security-by-going-back-to-paper/5601528861198/

Six other states -- Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee and Texas -- use both paper ballots and paperless DRE machines.

Why does Florida still have some counties that use DRE machines? Obviously, those votes cannot be checked. We have to take the word of Republican run elections system for their accuracy. Republican elections officials do claim the 3000 votes that disappeared on those machines wouldn't have affected the election result. We'll never know.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/us/voting-machines-florida.html


My point is that Oregon has a simpler system with less opportunity for shenanigans than does Florida. The day will come when an important Oregon election, be it Senator or Governor comes down to a handful of votes. Given that all of our ballots come from a vote-at-home system so that nobody is turned away on election day, all the votes are on paper with the voter's marks available for scrutiny and we can audit or recount as needed in a transparent system, I don't think it will be nearly as fraught as the one we are seeing in Florida today. I don't know why Floridians aren't demanding better from their leadership on this issue.

 

[schuylaar]

If you look at my complaints about Florida's system they mostly consist of how the state's leaders use it to suppress votes. I totally agree that a Florida hand recount of the paper ballots on file can be just as good as a hand recount anywhere else. The main problem as I see it is votes that were prevented by dirty tricks.

For example, reports about the funky ballots in Broward County that caused thousands of voters to under vote in the Senatorial election. Republicans are in control of the elections system and it was a Republican appointee who designed that ballot. Connecting this dot to another which says that a proportionally high number of Democrats live in that Broward County should give one pause. As one Democratic party official said: "Placing the contest on the left corner of the ballot, underneath the instructions, doesn’t fall in line with guidelines established by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission." Now, Republicans are arguing that they should get all those votes. Seems fishy to me.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-manual-recount-friday-20181116-story.html

Also, there are references to machines that don't produce a paper record in Florida, as in this article:
https://www.upi.com/Dozens-of-states-tighten-election-security-by-going-back-to-paper/5601528861198/

Six other states -- Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee and Texas -- use both paper ballots and paperless DRE machines.

Why does Florida still have some counties that use DRE machines? Obviously, those votes cannot be checked. We have to take the word of Republican run elections system for their accuracy. Republican elections officials do claim the 3000 votes that disappeared on those machines wouldn't have affected the election result. We'll never know.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/us/voting-machines-florida.html


My point is that Oregon has a simpler system with less opportunity for shenanigans than does Florida. The day will come when an important Oregon election, be it Senator or Governor comes down to a handful of votes. Given that all of our ballots come from a vote-at-home system so that nobody is turned away on election day, all the votes are on paper with the voter's marks available for scrutiny and we can audit or recount as needed in a transparent system, I don't think it will be nearly as fraught as the one we are seeing in Florida today. I don't know why Floridians aren't demanding better from their leadership on this issue.

there are 2M in broward and to count everything in one night can't and shouldn't happen but it's the bulk of gillum votes..if this county isn't done right we are suppressing ourselves and as a black women and dem, snipes should be ashamed.

i was told to file a complaint with inspector general..gee thanks.

 

[Fogdog]

there are 2M in broward and to count everything in one night can't and shouldn't happen but it's the bulk of gillum votes..if this county isn't done right we are suppressing ourselves and as a black women and dem, snipes should be ashamed.

i was told to file a complaint with inspector general..gee thanks.

I can't go there with you. Broward County's machine-counted votes wouldn't have affected the Governor's race results. Agree with you about the sketchy election and that the time allowed is artificially and unreasonably short but I don't agree that the machine count from Broward county would have affected the results. I think that Florida's Republican political machine did more to affect the results of the Governor's race through voter suppression than anything else.

Per HuffPo:
Volunteers, however, can find some solace in the fact that Broward’s new numbers ― even if they had been accepted ― would likely not have changed the final results in the state’s contentious U.S. Senate and gubernatorial races.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/broward-county-florida-recount-late_us_5beed993e4b0860184a7c03a

Governor DeSantis has an ugly ring to it. I'll just have to get used to it. Glad I live in Oregon.

 

[schuylaar]

I can't go there with you. Broward County's machine-counted votes wouldn't have affected the Governor's race results. Agree with you about the sketchy election and that the time allowed is artificially and unreasonably short but I don't agree that the machine count from Broward county would have affected the results. I think that Florida's Republican political machine did more to affect the results of the Governor's race through voter suppression than anything else.

Per HuffPo:
Volunteers, however, can find some solace in the fact that Broward’s new numbers ― even if they had been accepted ― would likely not have changed the final results in the state’s contentious U.S. Senate and gubernatorial races.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/broward-county-florida-recount-late_us_5beed993e4b0860184a7c03a

Governor DeSantis has an ugly ring to it. I'll just have to get used to it. Glad I live in Oregon.

we have the felon vote in 2020 to look forward to up to 1.3 million added..i wonder which way we'll swing?

 

[too larry]

If you look at my complaints about Florida's system they mostly consist of how the state's leaders use it to suppress votes. I totally agree that a Florida hand recount of the paper ballots on file can be just as good as a hand recount anywhere else. The main problem as I see it is votes that were prevented by dirty tricks.

For example, reports about the funky ballots in Broward County that caused thousands of voters to under vote in the Senatorial election. Republicans are in control of the elections system and it was a Republican appointee who designed that ballot. Connecting this dot to another which says that a proportionally high number of Democrats live in that Broward County should give one pause. As one Democratic party official said: "Placing the contest on the left corner of the ballot, underneath the instructions, doesn’t fall in line with guidelines established by the U.S. Election Assistance Commission." Now, Republicans are arguing that they should get all those votes. Seems fishy to me.
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/fl-ne-manual-recount-friday-20181116-story.html

Also, there are references to machines that don't produce a paper record in Florida, as in this article:
https://www.upi.com/Dozens-of-states-tighten-election-security-by-going-back-to-paper/5601528861198/

Six other states -- Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee and Texas -- use both paper ballots and paperless DRE machines.

Why does Florida still have some counties that use DRE machines? Obviously, those votes cannot be checked. We have to take the word of Republican run elections system for their accuracy. Republican elections officials do claim the 3000 votes that disappeared on those machines wouldn't have affected the election result. We'll never know.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/16/us/voting-machines-florida.html


My point is that Oregon has a simpler system with less opportunity for shenanigans than does Florida. The day will come when an important Oregon election, be it Senator or Governor comes down to a handful of votes. Given that all of our ballots come from a vote-at-home system so that nobody is turned away on election day, all the votes are on paper with the voter's marks available for scrutiny and we can audit or recount as needed in a transparent system, I don't think it will be nearly as fraught as the one we are seeing in Florida today. I don't know why Floridians aren't demanding better from their leadership on this issue.

Each of our 57 counties set up their own ballots. There are guidelines they have to go by, and they must be approved by the Secretary of State's office. Unless there is some court order or something I don't know about, Snipes' office sets up their own ballot just like everyone else.

All voting machines are required to be tested before elections. That is done in an open way, where anyone can come watch. All possible vote combinations are marked and tested to make sure the machines read them right. Some counties are better about doing this that others.

 

[too larry]

I can't go there with you. Broward County's machine-counted votes wouldn't have affected the Governor's race results. Agree with you about the sketchy election and that the time allowed is artificially and unreasonably short but I don't agree that the machine count from Broward county would have affected the results. I think that Florida's Republican political machine did more to affect the results of the Governor's race through voter suppression than anything else.

Per HuffPo:
Volunteers, however, can find some solace in the fact that Broward’s new numbers ― even if they had been accepted ― would likely not have changed the final results in the state’s contentious U.S. Senate and gubernatorial races.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/broward-county-florida-recount-late_us_5beed993e4b0860184a7c03a

Governor DeSantis has an ugly ring to it. I'll just have to get used to it. Glad I live in Oregon.

It is very rare for the numbers to move very much in recounts. That is good news, as it shows the initial counts were damn close. I forget the exact numbers, but only 3 of something like 25 recounts have changed the winner.