Deficiency using COCO + Led Strips??

eyderbuddy

Well-Known Member
EC1.3 seems a bit low to me. The giveaway is that your smaller plants are greener and healthier than your bigger plants. That suggests a nutrient deficiency as opposed to a lockout.

I don't agree that N and K levels are too high. Potassium levels are a little high for veg, but not Nitrogen. An NPK ratio of 2.6-0.6-3.2 suggests those nutrients are more suited to flowering than growth. You'd be better off using a high Nitrogen CalMag supplement rather than Epsom salts, as you already have plenty of Sulfur, and the plants would benefit from the extra N.

pH6-6.3 is fine for coco, and in fact helps with Ca availability.

You can water coco as often as you like and - as long as you have good drainage - you won't have any issues. Unless you are recycling your coco, and it has started to decompose, the coir is coarse enough to keep large amounts of air in the root zone. If you are recycling, then as coco degrades, the granules get smaller, the medium denser, and there is less room for air.

But that only happens after you recycle a couple of times and leave old root mass in the coco. Also, fresh coco should not decompose so quickly as to affect cation exchange. Once you have pre-buffered coco with sufficient calcium and magnesium, it won't bind as much, and so these elements will be available with each watering. Magnesium is less mobile that other elements, and as others have mentioned, the lower temperature of LEDs compared to HIDs can affect transpiration and transport within the plant.

Coco benefits from more waterings - I feed mine five times a day on an auto timer - as the more you water coco, the more oxygen you introduce to the root zone, as it is pulled into the coco through the action of soaking capillary action and drainage out the other end. Drainage is most important, as it flushes the coco with each watering.

Likewise, if you water often, you must also use a reasonably high concentration of nutrient (upper end of the suggested scale), as you are constantly flushing, and so there is no build-up of nutrient. Conversely, if you do not flush often, there will be a build-up of waste nutrient that can lock out other elements.

By mixing perlite and expanded clay into your coco, you are effectively reducing your pot size by filling it with inert materials. So your plants will root-bind faster and may also show signs of nutrient deficiency - that is something else to consider (though your pots seem to be a good size for those plants).

My suggestion at this stage would be to bump your EC to around 1.6, replace the Epsom Salts with a higher-N Cal-Mag supplement (N Ca Mg 4-6-2, or something like that), and ensure you get a little bit of runoff with each watering and DO NOT let you pots sit in the runoff only to soak it up as the pots dry out - a sure way to increase waste nutrient build-up in your pots.

Other than that, they are not too bad. My opinion you just need to feed them a little more. In fact, if you pH test the run-off, and your pH is quite high, then that is a generally a sign the plants are using up most of the nutrient you have been giving them and may require more. I have been growing in coco for a long time.
Thanks, this is very helpful. I agree with your first paragraph, as it's obvious that the biggest plants look more deficient than the smaller plants. Which is why i was thinking it was a deficiency.

Do you use megacrop?

In case it helps solve this, i'm trying to keep my nutrient mixes as simple as possible. So i'd rather avoid using a billion boosters... I understand a little Epsom, and some Cal-Mag, or Cal-Nit here and there, or some bennies! But i'd rather avoid making my nutrient mixing too complicated as i'm planning to automate the watering (drip system) very soon.

This is a 1st time problem for me because in previous grows i'd always use a VEG nutrient for veg, and another for flowering... But this experience clearly shows that 1 part nutrients are more like tools that you need to adapt to your grow... I suppose i could finish the crop by just using Megacrop and the plants will finish just fine, but i'd rather address this issue and learn a bit from the experience.

I've been gradually increasing the feed every time. Trying to move up slowly so i can stop in time before i start burning my plants. In fact today i fed at 1.5EC, and instead of Epsom Salts i used CAL-NIT from jacks. I'm also carefully following the correct mixing order to avoid any precipitate or fuck ups (which was a mistake on my previous grows)
 
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Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Will then, we have obviously reached the same conclusion and are tackling it the same way. I don't think there would be any harm in continuing with the Epsom salts as well as the calcium nitrate, as I've also noticed since growing under LEDs my plants have appreciated a little more Mg than when I grew in coco under HPS. That CAL-NIT doesn't appear to have any magnesium in it. Sometimes tap water has a little magnesium, but mostly hard water comes from groundwater limestone (calcium carbonate) sources.
 

eyderbuddy

Well-Known Member
Will then, we have obviously reached the same conclusion and are tackling it the same way. I don't think there would be any harm in continuing with the Epsom salts as well as the calcium nitrate, as I've also noticed since growing under LEDs my plants have appreciated a little more Mg than when I grew in coco under HPS. That CAL-NIT doesn't appear to have any magnesium in it. Sometimes tap water has a little magnesium, but mostly hard water comes from groundwater limestone (calcium carbonate) sources.
Is it OK to mix in this order?

1 = Megacrop
2 = Epsom
3 = Cal-Nit

I can use separate containers too if necessary.
 

boilingoil

Well-Known Member
I've never had to feed my coir plants with anything over 1.2 ec (600 ppm). Even with single daily feeds or every other day feeds.
My room was set up for HID's so my temps in the room doesn't go over 77 degrees and usually run 72-74*.
As such I struggled with plant health when I switched to LED's.
Point being , there are several ways to fix this problem. You either up your temps or you refine your nutrient profile to solve the problems.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
I'm no chemist, but I believe magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts) and calcium nitrate react to form calcium sulfate, so you could apply the Epsom as a foliar spray. Or just get yourself a decent CalMag supplement if you plant to continue growing in coco.
He is fine to mix those in that order.
That is the typical order withe powered nutrients like Jacks.
Base
Mag Sulphate
Then Calcium Nitrate
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
EC is one of those things where, unless you really know what you're feeding your plants, it's just a number. I don't put as much faith in EC meters as I do in reading the plants, but that's just me. I'll keep feeding and keep an eye on the plants, whilst ensuring everything else is OK (pH, drainage etc).

Remember also, that if you are feeding only once a day or every other day, you are allowing the coco to dry out and so the EC will increase inside the pot before the next watering. If you water four or five times a day, like I do, then the pots never dry out. I treat my coco much the same as any other hydroponic medium, by ensuring there is always oxygenated nutrient solution at the root zone. My reservoir aerates as it pumps.
 

Humple

Well-Known Member
I've never had to feed my coir plants with anything over 1.2 ec (600 ppm). Even with single daily feeds or every other day feeds.
My room was set up for HID's so my temps in the room doesn't go over 77 degrees and usually run 72-74*.
As such I struggled with plant health when I switched to LED's.
Point being , there are several ways to fix this problem. You either up your temps or you refine your nutrient profile to solve the problems.
What did you find to be the key mitigating factor(s) (nutrient-wise) in adapting to the low temps (low in LED-world, that is)?
 

boilingoil

Well-Known Member
Remember also, that if you are feeding only once a day or every other day, you are allowing the coco to dry out and so the EC will increase inside the pot before the next watering.
Respect, but I've done whole flower cycles in coir with no run-off and daily metered feeds very successfully for years and every time I tested run-off it was never over 50 ppm higher than the input.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Coco add's K and sucks up your Ca, so you want a fert with less K and more Ca, the Ca you'll have to add an additive like calmag.
yes

everything your hearing here is correct

looking at the PPm amounts you listed in the first post really threw me for a loop because it looks as if that's what your feeding

I was like wtf that's way too much

the pics do look like theyre having trouble getting magnesium

it could be possible you need a little Epsom (1/4 tsp per gallon), but youll also need to consider lock out especially when it comes to coco

coco can often have trouble with the ratio of K-Ca-Mg...( if memory serves it has to do with the sodium and buffering in the coco)
(note; yes the new coco products say they no longer have the buffering issue, but my friends who grow in coco still have to watch out)

these three elements will compete with each other for uptake and if one is too high or out of range it can block the other

in coco id recommend looking at if you can lower the K to allow more easily uptake of Mg and also Ca
typically in a hydro set up youd run the K-Ca-Mg ratio at 3-2-1 in veg and lean toward 4-2-1 in bloom for most hydro set ups

but in the case of coco id recommend staying with a 3-2-1 ratio all the way thru bloom which will keep the K slightly lower and allow the Mg and calcium to uptake
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
Respect, but I've done whole flower cycles in coir with no run-off and daily metered feeds very successfully for years and every time I tested run-off it was never over 50 ppm higher than the input.
I agree^

if your waste is higher than your feed your probably over feeding

ph goes up EC goes down = raise EC maybe if they show deficiency
ph goes down and or EC goes up = lower EC your over feeding (or you got root disease)
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Respect, but I've done whole flower cycles in coir with no run-off and daily metered feeds very successfully for years and every time I tested run-off it was never over 50 ppm higher than the input.
I'm not sure how you're testing runoff if you are watering without runoff :P

But seriously, watering entire cycles in coco without runoff is a recipe for waste nutrient buildup - and may actually be part of the reason for your own nutrient issues that you have asked for help for in recent months. Because if you are getting away with watering without runoff, it means you are underfeeding in the first place and your plants are probably yellowing by the time they get to late flower. (EDIT: I'm not saying this to be a dick, I'm really trying to help you.)

It's true that in a healthy system pH should rise and EC should lower when you test your runoff - I wrote that in my first post.

But it's also true that if you water with little or no runoff, unused salts will build up. Next time you depot your plants, take note of all the salt around the inside of the pot, as well as the salt on the surface of the coco where it dries out and leaves deposits.

Remember, EC is a measure of dissolved salts. If those waste nutrients have precipitated out - which they do - they may still be present in the media and not registering on an EC meter. You end up with hot spots in your coco and the only way to flush them out thoroughly after a long period of build-up is to continually flush with warm water.

In fact, anyone who has ever used those cheap coco bricks that have a lot of NaCl in them (untreated coco is very high in salt), knows the secret to using them successfully is to expand and flush them with warm water before prebuffering with a high calcium magnesium nutrient.

When I spoke of EC rising in the pot in-between waterings, there can be cases in warm climates where the water in the pot evaporates at a faster rate than the nutrient is being used by the plant, which will lead to an increased concentration in salt levels. That is what I meant by "higher EC".

But of course, you can't measure true EC unless all salts are dissolved in the solution you are testing. Next time you wish to test your runoff EC after a long period of watering without runoff, try using warm water; water all around the edges of the pot; and let the pot sit in a tray of runoff for a period to truly dissolve all the salts before you test it. Then see what you come up with.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
IMO, the biggest mistake people make when switching to coco is to treat it like soil or soilless, and not as a hydroponic media, which is essentially what it is - a mostly inert (decomposition aside) hydroponic media with better buffering and moisture retention. Treat it like hydro and you will get the best results.

SchnaCal.jpg
The only time I let my coco dry out is right before harvest.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
did he say hes not getting run off???
I guess I missed that or skimmed it to quickly and thought he said hes getting run off

ya man ^^^ all that

@Prawn Connery
I hadn't gone backward and read your posts or id realized you already covered it

everything he said was absolutely on point....except im a lower EC feeding guy so id not raise the EC if they don't look hungry but I also water frequently and find with frequent watering you can run a lower EC and mitigate the need to flush or salt build ups

and Id consider lower the K IF you cant seem to correct a magnesium def despite extra Epsom

ive seen guys in coco keep adding and adding Epsom and chase magnesium def the entire grow because the K was too high
 
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