Slow yellowish growth under vero 29 3000k/3500k

[Earlyriser76]

If you can see at the end of the day that the plants no longer "pray" and look "droopy", that is a sign that they are "light saturated". They should pray until just before the light goes out!
If you pay attention on this behavior, you can give each strain the optimal amount of light and you will get healthy, magnificent plants!

This is working really well. I've been watching when my leaves droop during the 18hr cycle and turning the lights down a little each day until I found where they droop at or near the 18th hour. My strain seems to like 13-14k for 18hrs which is right in line with your veg numbers of 15k. My plants are growing great on a lot less heat and light than I would have thought.

 

[KonopCh]

I have the same problem, and I am wondering if you can somehow train/adapt your plant to more light.

I grow autoflowers right now, and they're under 175W at the wall of Q strips in a 4x4 tent. I run 20/4 schedule.
They're 38 days old, but as you can see, one is looking good, and other is light saturated as early as 14 hours. Strips are set at 23.000 LUX at the tips (around 20cm I think), so 330 umol/s or 24 DLI.

 

[pirg420]

Whats the runoff ppm and ph? start there first

 

[Randomblame]

I have the same problem, and I am wondering if you can somehow train/adapt your plant to more light.

I grow autoflowers right now, and they're under 175W at the wall of Q strips in a 4x4 tent. I run 20/4 schedule.
They're 38 days old, but as you can see, one is looking good, and other is light saturated as early as 14 hours. Strips are set at 23.000 LUX at the tips (around 20cm I think), so 330 umol/s or 24 DLI.

Hmm! 23klx is not enough to saturate a healthy plant. They have closed all stomata and leaves are curled down but leaf margins are curled upwards in the same time. For me thats a hint on more than one problem.
1. Is the RH high enough? You want +60%!
2 ambient temps? Heatstress? Leaf margins are curled upwards...
3. over watering? not enough roots? Transplanted or not?


I have often seen such behavior when I've ramped up the light too early. The root system was simply not big enough to supply enough water and plants stopped breathing to save them self from drying out.
I would flush them once with PH'ed water and dimm the light down untill they have recovered.(you can add some molasses to activate soil living bacterias) And set ambient temps to 25°C for a while and RH to +60% to lower the VPD. Give them some time to build more roots then you can turn the light back up.

 

[Uzzi]

Got a cheap lux-meter from e3ay, mate! You can get one for around 14$US from e3ay. I'm using this one below with good success.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Accurate-200-000-Lux-Digital-Light-Meter-Tester-Photometer-Luxmeter-HS1010/372235434996?hash=item56aaf5fbf4:g:xQIAAOSw32lYq-rg

To convert lux-readings to avegage μMol/s/m² numbers divide the results by 69(3000k/CRI80) or 62(3000k/CRI90).
This is not 100% accurate though, but it gives you approximately correct numbers!

I'm using following intensities with good success:
early vegging: ~15.000lx (220/240μMol/s/m² PPFD)
late vegging: ~25.000lx(360/400μMol/s/m² PPFD)
flowering: ~ 40.000-50.000lx(580/645 - 725/800μMol/s/m² PPFD)

There is no need to go with higher intensities, the more light they get the more difficult is it to keep them happy/healthy.
If you can see at the end of the day that the plants no longer "pray" and look "droopy", that is a sign that they are "light saturated". They should pray until just before the light goes out!
If you pay attention on this behavior, you can give each strain the optimal amount of light and you will get healthy, magnificent plants!

FFS - this is a to the point and respectable post with clear observations but I’ve been looking into this and there is so much conflicting information! I’ve got a closet run with x6 CXB3590 COBs dimmed to 165w at the wall, 300mm (12”) high, 37w/sq ft, 700 PAR, LPA, 21 days in. They’re healthy but from what you’ve said I’m pushing too much light?

A really confusing subject but it’s hard to find genuine experience and recommendations which you’ve done, Think I’ll dim things down further. Thanks for the heads up Random!

 

[Earlyriser76]

Think I’ll dim things down further.

FWIW, I can't get to 23klx either without wildly supersaturating. I'm running these at 14klx in the center to 13klx at the edges. They droop at hour 17 in an 18/6 cycle. 12-13klx might be just about right for my tent. I'm running the HLG Quantum v2 boards and the strain is FS c99.

 

[Halfandhalf]

Well this grow is long done but since it seems to still be getting replies here's a few pics of the plant that turned out the best, Durban Poison. The clone turned out to be male so that was killed off and the other plant wasn't very impressive but both of them were bag seed so I wasn't expecting that much. I'm still smoking this bud as we speak actually and it' ok, but I think I could've finished it better. It got a little fox tailed and the potency wasn't as high as I'd like. I'll probably be turning down the light on my next grow around week 6 to let them finish a little easier and also try to get a flatter canopy.



So my space isn't dialed in and I gotta play with intensity more but I have a Jack Herer growing in my veg tent and I'll be giving it another go soon. I'm gonna also probably invest in a 315w cmh after this grow and see how it compares. I actually started the Jack under an MH then switched it to my 5000k vero tent and it was interesting to see the changes. Apart from the spectrum change I'm noticing a little bit of the mottling that I've seen on all my previous cob grows that was not there under the mh. Between the veins there are patterned spots that are lighter and it looks the same on all the leaves, gonna have to take a pic later but it's pretty faint. I put an incandescent bulb in that tent to see if increased temp via ir and ambient heat will increase growth rate and also to give a little bit of red in there but I don't plan on leaving it there unless the plants love it. The veg tent is only 75 watts of vero's and the incandescent is 100w, temp increased from 70 to 73 ambient and hopefully theres enough ir to heat up the leaves a little directly too. The light output of the incandescent obviously pales in comparison to the led but that's not why I'm using it. My flowering tent gets up to around 77-80f just with the leds for comparison.

Also have some basil and an aloe in there that I'm also testing out and those plants and others are what I want to put led through the ringer for. If you've read the lettuce growing challenge thread you'll see how much trouble they have with cobs. I'd like to play with supplemental lighting and see if there are spectrum combinations of led that can allow greens to grow well and maximize every aspect of a flowering cannabis plant as well. Unfortunately money is tight atm but I wanna play with cyan and far red led as well possibly some t5s and like I said before, cmh. I know I can grow better plants with this setup but I really wanna learn how the plants are reacting to every part in the spectrum. The fact that my aloe burns at the tips and stays small under multiple spectrums of 75 watt led (tried 3500k 80 cri, 3000k 90 cri and currently the 5000k 70 cri) but grows bigger and doesn't burn at the tips under my 400w mh tells me something is missing or in too much abundance. MH seems to be covering something for more varieties of plants than led can currently and I'd like to find out why.

 

[Humple]

Well this grow is long done but since it seems to still be getting replies here's a few pics of the plant that turned out the best, Durban Poison. The clone turned out to be male so that was killed off and the other plant wasn't very impressive but both of them were bag seed so I wasn't expecting that much. I'm still smoking this bud as we speak actually and it' ok, but I think I could've finished it better. It got a little fox tailed and the potency wasn't as high as I'd like. I'll probably be turning down the light on my next grow around week 6 to let them finish a little easier and also try to get a flatter canopy.

View attachment 4256442 View attachment 4256425 View attachment 4256426

So my space isn't dialed in and I gotta play with intensity more but I have a Jack Herer growing in my veg tent and I'll be giving it another go soon. I'm gonna also probably invest in a 315w cmh after this grow and see how it compares. I actually started the Jack under an MH then switched it to my 5000k vero tent and it was interesting to see the changes. Apart from the spectrum change I'm noticing a little bit of the mottling that I've seen on all my previous cob grows that was not there under the mh. Between the veins there are patterned spots that are lighter and it looks the same on all the leaves, gonna have to take a pic later but it's pretty faint. I put an incandescent bulb in that tent to see if increased temp via ir and ambient heat will increase growth rate and also to give a little bit of red in there but I don't plan on leaving it there unless the plants love it. The veg tent is only 75 watts of vero's and the incandescent is 100w, temp increased from 70 to 73 ambient and hopefully theres enough ir to heat up the leaves a little directly too. The light output of the incandescent obviously pales in comparison to the led but that's not why I'm using it. My flowering tent gets up to around 77-80f just with the leds for comparison.

Also have some basil and an aloe in there that I'm also testing out and those plants and others are what I want to put led through the ringer for. If you've read the lettuce growing challenge thread you'll see how much trouble they have with cobs. I'd like to play with supplemental lighting and see if there are spectrum combinations of led that can allow greens to grow well and maximize every aspect of a flowering cannabis plant as well. Unfortunately money is tight atm but I wanna play with cyan and far red led as well possibly some t5s and like I said before, cmh. I know I can grow better plants with this setup but I really wanna learn how the plants are reacting to every part in the spectrum. The fact that my aloe burns at the tips and stays small under multiple spectrums of 75 watt led (tried 3500k 80 cri, 3000k 90 cri and currently the 5000k 70 cri) but grows bigger and doesn't burn at the tips under my 400w mh tells me something is missing or in too much abundance. MH seems to be covering something for more varieties of plants than led can currently and I'd like to find out why.

Are you supplementing mag? Also, your veg temps are quite low for LED.

 

[Halfandhalf]

I stopped supplementing cal or mag when I got canna coco a&b as that seemed to fix most of the problems on my last grow, or so I thought. But I switched to it at the beginning of flower so maybe I'll try some epsom salt now. I have tried it before for this specific problem with Pure Blend Pro in veg and it didn't really do anything tho so I'm dubious about it helping now.

The incandescent raised temps to 75f today but I really don't wanna run a 100w incandescent just for heat. Any suggestions for a better source of heat and possibly IR?

I may also try switching out of using coco as that seems to be another possible source of stress with possible high potassium resulting in magnesium deficiency even though I flushed the coco and tried different cal/mag and nutrient concentrations. I'd love to try organic soil but I don't know much about it.

 

[Earlyriser76]

I


I may also try switching out of using coco as that seems to be another possible source of stress with possible high potassium resulting in magnesium deficiency even though I flushed the coco and tried different cal/mag and nutrient concentrations.

I have always avoided Coco because of potential problems of salt buildups/PH. I still use the classic hempy buckets of 3:1 Perlite/Vermiculite.

My nute schedule is equally as simple, inexpensive and is working well.

Tap water + GH Maxigrow @ 4.5 grams per gallon + 1 gram epsom salt for Veg (rooted clone to flip)
Tap water + GH Maxigrow @ 3 grams per gallon + 3 grams Maxibloom for Flower (2 weeks after flip to flush)

My plants are now able to take 40klx for 12 hours easily and are looking great.

 

[Earlyriser76]

I am loosing bottom leaves pretty badly in flower. Should I add 4 grams per gallon of Epsom salt?

 

[Randomblame]

I am loosing bottom leaves pretty badly in flower. Should I add 4 grams per gallon of Epsom salt?

That's because they are old did'nt recieve enough light. The plant use the stored energy(starches/carbohydrates) and nutes from these old leaves and therefor they get yellow and slowly die. The nutrients from the leaf migrate to the corresponding shoot growing on the same node. This can be a twig or a side bud.
What's you ppm in the flowering stage?
The more is available the less is used from older parts of the plant. So maybe 100ppm more and it would take a little longer.
But also with a perfect nutrient regime you'll still see yellow leaves at the bottom.

Plants don't waste things! When a tree lose all his leaves right before the winter he pulls all the stored nutes and sugars out of them before he throws them off. The nutes and starches will be used to form the new leaves!
Mother nature don't waste resources!
So don't worry. It's also strain dependent... The bottom leaves of a 60" high equatorial sativa are probably 70" away from the light. With a small indika strain the bottom leaves would have 4 times as much light cause the distance to the light would be only 30" or so.
Yellowing on the bottom leaves is normal behavior and there is no need to worry abaout it.

 

[Earlyriser76]

What's you ppm in the flowering stage?

I ran out of Maxigrow and watered with Maxibloom only at 5g per gallon and having a big problem.

I was loosing some leaves at 4.5 per gallon MG and Epsom at 1 gram per gallon in veg but am loosing even more leaves in flower now I went MB only. Something isn't right and Maxibloom only made it worse.

3 grams of Maxibloom and 3 Maxigrow plus 1 gram per gallon of Epsom salt gives me a PPM of 1007.

 

[Earlyriser76]

Here are the leaves I'm loosing.

 

[OneHitDone]

Looks like that thing is choking itself out. Why is the foliage so waded up in a tight ball at the top?
Probably light starved lowers as Randomblame pointed out.
What about watering schedule? Some leaves look underwatered droopy ?

 

[Earlyriser76]

QUOTE="OneHitDone, post: 14753679, member: 900069"]Looks like that thing is choking itself out. Why is the foliage so waded up in a tight ball at the top?
Probably light starved lowers as Randomblame pointed out.
What about watering schedule? Some leaves look underwatered droopy ?[/QUOTE]

Looks like I overwatered too but that's not really possible with perlite Hempy. Everytime I water my leaves droop and some die. I thought the roots were drowning or were getting root bound so I went to larger pots. That didn't fix this either.

These were looking pretty good in veg but they started to drop leaves in veg. Then I think I misfed them and made matters worse.

I think it's nutirent related and going to try another way and give this Maxibloom a rest.

 

[OneHitDone]

QUOTE="OneHitDone, post: 14753679, member: 900069"]Looks like that thing is choking itself out. Why is the foliage so waded up in a tight ball at the top?
Probably light starved lowers as Randomblame pointed out.
What about watering schedule? Some leaves look underwatered droopy ?

Looks like I overwatered too but that's not really possible with perlite Hempy. Everytime I water my leaves droop and some die. I thought the roots were drowning or were getting root bound so I went to larger pots. That didn't fix this either.

These were looking pretty good in veg but they started to drop leaves in veg. Then I think I misfed them and made matters worse.

I think it's nutirent related and going to try another way and give this Maxibloom a rest.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you may have something else going on. Never used Maxi series but have heard enough people use it to know it works.
Are you sure there is no bugs in your media?

 

[Earlyriser76]

I think it was the damn maxibloom. I am done with it.

I watered with MB and my leaves drooped and some of them died so yesterday I flushed the plants with plain water and then watered them with MegaCrop at 5g per gallon and the leaves perked up again.

I don't sell MC or MB so I don't have any reason to make this claim.

Maxigrow at 4.5 grams per gallon plus 1 gram of Epsom worked good for the first 60 days but then my plants started to droop after watering and did drop leaves after 60 days of veg. They are in 3 gallon pots. Maxibloom alone was even worse.

I had 6 of the best plants I have ever grown and now they are all fucked up because I used Maxibloom alone.

My media is pretty new. It's perlite and vermiculite only and so I doubt I have any bugs. This has something to do with my watering after my plants are over 60 days old. Either my roots are drowning or my nutes are not giving me what the plants need.

 

[Earlyriser76]

It's conclusive! All I did was change my nutes and I stopped dropping leaves.

 

[maps84]

I agree it might not be the lights. Though the veros are getting this kind of reviews all over the place.
Do you remember the UFOs round panels from blackstar? well those fuckers had the ability to kill my plants exactly at 3rd week of flower; my plants would just start to yellow and witter. at the end I couldn't figure out what was wrong, better said I couldn't afford to waste more time and clones, so I stuck with HPS at that time and had no further issues.