2x2' Veg Lighting

[ShedsAndTents]

Hello to all readers, I am a long time lurker for research but have finally decided to chime in considering I am finally where I can go legal!
To the point:
I have a 2'x2' area for veg and I'm having a tough time making a decision on which source of lighting will give me the most compact growth (I'm interested in manifolding, so the shorter the node distance the better for me!)
My funds are definitely low but I will save up if I must, however the options I am considering I have found are in price range.
My research and jewish wallet led me to either a 384w 23.5"x23.5"(Convenient right?) 16 bulb t5 setup or a 17"x17x" wing reflector 400w Metal Halide.
The t5 setup is about 30$ more than the MH so price isn't the issue as much my inexperience in both t5 and HID as having been a long time micro grower.
I appreciate anyone who has taken the time to read this far and would greatly appreciate input from anyone experienced with t5's or HID's as to the best option for compact or maybe just best overall growth. Thanks all for you have all influenced me greatly inadvertently.

 

[Lucky Luke]

what is the height of your space?

 

[coreywebster]

I wouldn't go for 384w or 400w in a 2x2 for veg.

What sort of price tag you looking at?

CMH is a great light in the HID family but I feel its too much wattage for a 2x2 space, the rest of the HID family would be even worse.

I would probably go down the LED route, going with something like a quantum board, but even a cheapo LED with veg well in that space.
I would be looking at 200w or less, much less if its a highly efficient LED. With HPS/MH 50w per square foot is good for flowering, less needed for veg. With cheapo LED (most amazon lights like mars, vipar) its about the same wattage per square foot, mybe a few more. With highly efficient cobs or quantum board style lights you only need 35w per square foot, that's for flowering, you need considerably less for Veg.

This would work great
https://growerslights.com/collections/horticulture-lighting-group-quantum-board-led-kits/products/horticulture-lighting-group-100-watt-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=42323592458

I wouldn't personally pay the extra to have it preassembled, unless you are the type who cant wire a plug.

 

[ShedsAndTents]

LuckyLuke, my height restriction is 4' (2'x2'x4' tent)

CoreyWebster, I actually have a 130w basic cheapo an 80w reflector cheapo and a 50w ufo but I was disappointed at the overall girth of the plants I grew. After doing more research I found that it may have also been either a very high e.c. or light stress but eitherway the last experience I had with LED was confusing and not up to par with my expectations of comparisons.

97$ pricetag for the 600w dimmable and 125$ for the 16 bulb t5.

I was thinking LED first don't get me wrong but watt for watt 105$ for 200w of LED or 100$ for up to 600w of HID had me in a bind because I know nothing of HID use.

I am a long time LED lover however when compared to others growth mine always seemed overall less happy than the pretty ladies I see around this part of the web.

If it wasn't for my intention of vegging for 6-8 weeks(manifolding) I would probably stick with my cheapo LED's but the coverage of t5's and the penetration of HID surpasses LED while also being about half price watt for watt. My last harvest was with one 130w cheapo and I harvested about 2 ounces from one plant and 1 ounce from an early cut. Other than my inability to cure the bud wasn't bad. Definitely didn't taste GOOD, but that's my fault not the LED's

I got 2 ounces of fluffy bud out of the 2'x2'x4' area that I will now have for vegging, i paid 80$ for that one cheapo at the time(Bad timing, i could have waited for this flooded market)
Right now it's 60$ for that light.

The way I see it is that t5's can be raised and (most) HID's can be dimmed and considering it would cost 250-300$ that i don't have to match the wattage of LED to the HID or t5 than I will just jump on bandwagon with conventional agricultural lighting methods because this is just my bag of weed money getting put to better use!

Is there any suggestions as to which creates more compact internodes?
Or even point out the flaws or cons instead?
P.S. Heat isn't an issue this season, infact I have to find out how to stop my shed from getting to below freezing at night currently.

 

[coreywebster]

I produce more weight with the same quality and denseness with my LEDs than I ever did with HPS.
But I totally see your point as far as price goes.
Although I don't see value in buying a 600w HPS or MH set up with only a 2x2 area, you would have problems running that wattage in that space, but I know you can dim, that said unless your planning on upgrading to at least a 3x3 tent I wouldn't buy a higher wattage HPS just to dim it, you need to use the right bulb for a start, you would have to buy a 250w bulb, so you may as well go for a 250w ballast and buy a MH bulb and a HPS bulb, MH creates some tight internodes.

I would say, without looking at your grow, you had some serious issues only yielding what you did, its possible that the cheapo LED was to blame for the lack of density, but it could be other things too like a lack or air exchange.

Personally I'm not a fan of cheap blurple lights, they promise the world and don't deliver, the LEDs most of the guys here use are a different story. Its white light and produces more photons watt for watt than anything else.

I recommend you look at scrogging regardless of your light choice. For one your height is limited with only 4ft, so it makes that easier to deal with. Secondly, its easy to yield good with a proper scrog. The first one I tried was in a 1.5ft x 2ft screen and yielded me 9oz of solid nugs with room for improvement as my net wasn't as full as it could of been.

If you want tight internodes go for a light with plenty of blue. Be it t5/t8, cfl, led @5000k or Metal halide.

I will say again though, don't go crazy with high wattage, its not just a waste of electricity, its too much light for too little space and that will cause problems for your plants.

 

[hydrohaz]

I veg similar space with a 65w quantum board. Nodes nice and tight. 24hrs first 4 weeks then 18/6 next 4. Most time only veg for 6 weeks though.

 

[BCNeil]

It's probably more than you want to spend. I got a demo model phytomax 2-200. I have it in a 2x2 tent, with 4 seedlings. Nice and short so far. Over the years I have used various wattage HPS and MH for veg, and even plasma. The LED looks the best in veg. I might even try to flower a single plant in the tent in summer. I don't know if manifolding would even be enough to control the height. I guess I would have enough space for a 28-30in plant. But I think the light would work great. Right now the 4 seedlings will go under HPS with a high ceiling.

 

[ShedsAndTents]

I appreciate all of the feedback so far!

I am actually interested in the scrog method but ironically enough it's the screen part that turns me off, I understand that sounds plain stupid, but I find satisfaction in the uniformity (hence the mainlining quirk) and feel as though the screen itself will hinder my obsessive behaviour haha. I also like the idea of stuffing a few plants per cab just incase there's an operator error so my stash doesn't have a month or two setback and my inexperience with scrog has me at a loss as far as how wide each plant stretches and my required area per plant because I fear my best bet would for scrogging would probably be 1 plant in the 2x2 area. Also I have a seperate area for flowering, how does one go about moving a scrog setup? My intentions are a perpetual grow with a Sow/Harvest rate of either 1Mo or every 2Mo.

So for the sake of a hypothesis let's assume I go for the HID, my understanding is that aside from optimal distance from the canopy isn't tere often a set minimum distance for the hanging kit not including the distance from the ground to the canopy?
I guess what I'm getting at is what size do you guys think I can get with a 4' height restriction with HID.

Edit: 26-30inches in veg you say? What kind of yield would a plant that tall produce? I understand that a plant can up to double in size after (Genetic predisposition I hope) going into the flower photoperiod, but considering I'm manifolding (I've only topped before) I feel like i can go from a 3 gal pot at 2' in the veg tent to a 3-4ft in the 6 foot flower room wearing a 5Gal. Is this a viable assumption? I guess I am asking for any experience in a situation like this or maybe suggestion of something I missed


I digress back to HID Vs T5

With the ability to get within inches will the t5 outperform the HID as far as my height limits go (In contrast to the usual veg cycle "Time" limit)

The reason I'm so adamant about using my 2'x2'x4' is because I have a 10'x10' Shed of which I am allotted one half of.
It also has a single angle roof
that goes from 4.5' tall to 76 inches(6'4)
And as it stands from left to right I have
A 10"x20" seedling tray with a 96w 2ft t5 over it, underneath that is a 1.5'x2.5'x3.5' cab that has 6 23w 65ks and 2 12w blurples (they stretch away from the cfls towards the LED hardcore)
To the right of that is my 2x2x4 tent that previously housed a cheapo 130w 80w meizhi and a 50w ufo with 4 23w 27ks
And finally the flower tent is 3x3x6 with a 600w HID.

I can't fathom my expected yields but I have a gameplan and a blueprint and the ever expanding knowledge I collect from here. Thanks again for the read and replies.

 

[KlosetKush]

throw HID out the window man, just do yourself a favor

https://growerslights.com/collections/horticulture-lighting-group-quantum-board-led-kits?gclid=Cj0KCQiA3b3gBRDAARIsAL6D-N-jhSE7P_3YvVHQ_uu66QOBqUlz9roTsz-TpQwJlJ3GwyWdSD3fE4YaAtOxEALw_wcB

https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/collections/kits

these should help you get what you need

 

[Clown Baby]

600w HID is way too big for a 2x2 veg area.
HID is cheaper per watt than LED in up front cost, but it'll quickly become more expensive than LED once you factor in operating costs.

Quantum board is probably the best bang for your buck right now.

 

[ShedsAndTents]

600w HID is way too big for a 2x2 veg area.
HID is cheaper per watt than LED in up front cost, but it'll quickly become more expensive than LED once you factor in operating costs.

Quantum board is probably the best bang for your buck right now.

Welp, my idea was with a 600w dimmable ballast with a 250 and 400 option I could throw a 250w or 400w bulb in there to dim it. My understanding that is with temps (Both ambient and Leaf Surface) under control and inevitably VPD, I can run up to 900 Ppfd without C02 as long as fresh air is rapidly introduced. With a 600w @ 18" averaging at 400-600 ppfd the only limitations are the 18" distance + 7" Air cooled headroom and 12" pot height taking up 37" leaving only 23" in final flowering height in a 5' tall tent. Not yield worthy...

The only reason I haven't jumped on the bandwagon of COB is that even though the efficiency is higher, it still has spectrum limitations. Which is why I assume no large scale operations have switched to COB.

Information and research is plentiful on HID and blurples. A lot of the best smoke in Denver is under blurples by a little known LED company named Veloya(I think?) Mostly because they only operate large scale. One of my biggest problems however is temperatures. Outside is 20° and inside is 60° I need something that can raise temperatures in the winter and stabilize in the summer (Air cooled HID with variable speed inline fan?) My Current LED'S underperformed when temps are below 75° and the raptor dual XXL 8" 2x1000w hood killed a 20a breaker (120v like a dumbass)
so I must digress to reality from overpower. (2 Plants 6" from the light with an 8" fan, unmatched growth speed, about 1600 Ppfd with a c02 generator made for unrealistic expectations this time) now that my grow room is a kids room I have to downsize but basic bitch LED's (China) have let me down.

Does anyone have experience with Black Dog LED? YouTube videos seem unreal with the results.

Forgive my lack of faith in COB's but a 400w system for 400$ makes me worry when a 600w HID kit runs 160$ on amazon and I know the results. My local dispensary uses Black Dog but will not reveal expected yields. (Some of my favorite strains from my favorite growers at Verde) My local growers and even my landlord told me that cobs consistently produced smaller terpene profiles along with disappointing lower growth. I personally have no experience with this as my local labs require a lb for accurate averages.

Maybe I'll invest in equal wattage cobs LED's and HID's and test a lb. from each (from clones) to have a terp profile check.

For anyone out there with side by side experience, what flavor profiles per light sources did you enjoy best?

 

[eyderbuddy]

You know, every LED isn't a COB... A COB is only an LED form factor. It's also not the best for heat dissipation, i have a few COB fixtures from a few years ago, but i wouldn't build them today.

Also, Black Dog LED is expensive as f, not worht it imo

 

[gwheels]

135 QB in 4k. Simple and it can cover 2 x 2 or 1.5 x 3 in veg or flower no problem. It is a great little light.

 

[ShedsAndTents]

I do like the idea of a quantum board and 330$ for a 260w isn't too bad.
How is the penetration? I understand they have 120/288 and 300 somethings, regarding the amount of diodes and the 260w/288 qb would have less than 1w diodes, wouldn't this have less penetration compared to 5w diode led panels?
IE a mars hydro with 3000k Leds

 

[gwheels]

Quantum boards and strips work very well. I think they are far better than a Mars 5 watt panel and they will leave you with fewer regrets....Mars light notsomuch.

 

[NanoGadget]

HLG Quantum boards are better in every measurable way than blurples. Penetration is good, efficiency is off the charts. Quality of the finished product is every bit as good as anything i got with HID.
2 pictures from my last run... this plant was grown in a 2x2 space, and was under the 135 watt single 288 kit from seed to harvest. Pulled almost 5 oz dry with almost no training.

 

[ShedsAndTents]

HLG Quantum boards are better in every measurable way than blurples. Penetration is good, efficiency is off the charts. Quality of the finished product is every bit as good as anything i got with HID.
2 pictures from my last run... this plant was grown in a 2x2 space, and was under the 135 watt single 288 kit from seed to harvest. Pulled almost 5 oz dry with almost no training.
View attachment 4252747 View attachment 4252748

Hell to the yeah bro, about 1GPW right there.
How many weeks did you veg her for?
Those are some nice colas my man, what nutrients did ya use?

 

[NanoGadget]

Hell to the yeah bro, about 1GPW right there.
How many weeks did you veg her for?
Those are some nice colas my man, what nutrients did ya use?

Thanks! 4 weeks of veg, topped twice. Was grown in organic living soil that i cooked up myself so it was a water only grow until about 5 weeks of flower. Just did a bit of top dressing to get it to the finish line when the nutrients in the soil were pretty much exhausted. If I'd have scrogged that plant early and vegged for another week or two i could probably have gotten another ounce or 2 out if her.

 

[ShedsAndTents]

Thanks! 4 weeks of veg, topped twice. Was grown in organic living soil that i cooked up myself so it was a water only grow until about 5 weeks of flower. Just did a bit of top dressing to get it to the finish line when the nutrients in the soil were pretty much exhausted. If I'd have scrogged that plant early and vegged for another week or two i could probably have gotten another ounce or 2 out if her.

Props my dude! i'm looking to try a "Natures living soil" run when I get an HPS in. Still running a small grow right now looking to exhaust my nutrients before I try the switch.

What size pot is she in? do you repot/Add amendments when uppotting?

 

[NanoGadget]

Props my dude! i'm looking to try a "Natures living soil" run when I get an HPS in. Still running a small grow right now looking to exhaust my nutrients before I try the switch.

What size pot is she in? do you repot/Add amendments when uppotting?

That plant was transplanted twice. Started in a solo cup, tranplanted to 1 gallon pot and fisnished up in a 5 gallon smart pot. I like this method for living soil as it allows me to start in soil that isnt as 'hot' and step up the ratio with each transplant. Also provides a fresh supply of nutrient rich soil at each translpant. Only thing i add during transpant is mycos on the roots mass.