5 x 5 light set up

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Easy. I have the same tent, but taller. Here's what yours would look like - I get my LEDs a lot closer than in this pic. This was when I was first trying them out and running them quite warm, at around 200W. That was too much, so I gradually turned them down until I found a sweet spot at around 120W. These strips are max rated to about 86W each, so four is 345W combined. You may need yo use a heat pad for your clones in winter, as they don't throw off a lot of heat, or just move your driver inside for a bit of added warmth and turn off any extractor fan you might have until your clones strike.

LEDlights.jpg
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
Yip thats me for sure! 3 strips off a 185-48 driver or similar? I like the idea, they look like the perfect size cobler.:bigjoint:
 

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Prof Prawn and clan,

So my clone tent is 800mm high and I run 2 x 24w 10000k and 2 x 24w 6500k Mojocow T5 Cfls.

It seems to clone OK but they really do bugger all when transplanted into small coco pots.

How close to the T5s should these be?
I'm thinking that maybe a decent set of LED strips or maybe a QB board would be better. Considering my height, love to hear your or others thoughts pls
FC
Runnin a single 96 in a 2x3x4(h) mother tent @ 150w about 24” above tops. This 96 has a dead row of diodes, which actually boosted the blue spike.
8A270697-C783-4A13-8541-3AE47DF2C160.jpeg

Clones do well at bout 50-60 ppfd, so my clone tent 2x3x4, also has a 96 (the other one w also a dead row of diodes) running about 14w:
7A5DEA42-E3CE-4A1B-A256-1D6D5DD74EAD.jpeg

41F39265-B227-4DBC-86A3-734882395793.jpeg
 

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Haha, you won't believe what I clone under - 13W LED desk lamp.



Does the job. Once the clones strike, I put them straight into the veg tent. Here are some old pix - four double-row 2' F-series strips on a HLG-240H-48A driver (running at 100-120W):
View attachment 4257941

View attachment 4257944


The best veg light I've made so far is this one for a mate (actually made two of these). Five 4000K F-series strips. He runs them at about 200W in a tent and they veg like you wouldn't believe:
View attachment 4257946

But to answer your question, get the T5s as close to the new clones as possible without burning them. Depends on the temperatures in your grow room, but I'd imagine you only want them 2-3" above the tops. That's how I used to run CFLs in my old veg chamber.
13w, i wonder what the ppfd is under that?
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
No idea. I was forced to use my desk lamp one time as I had no room in my veg tent for my cloning box, but soon discovered it cloned really well - sometimes in as little as 7 days, but always within 14 days. I've used it ever since.

It's a warm white, too - 2700K - so I'm guessing the clones don't mind a bit of red shift, either. Advertised 1400 lumens at 2700K - perhaps you could make an educated guess at PPFD? The light is under a reflector, and I run the bulb right on top of the box.
 

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
No idea. I was forced to use my desk lamp one time as I had no room in my veg tent for my cloning box, but soon discovered it cloned really well - sometimes in as little as 7 days, but always within 14 days. I've used it ever since.

It's a warm white, too - 2700K - so I'm guessing the clones don't mind a bit of red shift, either. Advertised 1400 lumens at 2700K - perhaps you could make an educated guess at PPFD? The light is under a reflector, and I run the bulb right on top of the box.
Maybe around 20 ppfd?

Here’s my clone data at 14w:
BEA93BDE-11D7-4646-853D-BA5A6BAC6F84.jpeg
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
Thanks Mr Or_Gro but I'm a bit hamstrung for height, I don't need them to get massive, just that initial stage from clones to early veg with a nice wee root ball. As per the Prawns I'm guessing about 1 litre pots.

So Prawn this looks like the strip I need? 3 or 4 of them? Is it worth throwing some 5000k into the mix or stick with 4000k?
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/si-b8t521560ww/samsung-electronics

Driver option looks like:
HLG-240h-48a is 3 bucks cheaper than the 185 version at US$58.00, running at half power I could just mount on the ally heat sink.

ELG-240-48a runs at $43
ELG-200-48a at $41
ELG-150-48 at $33 - not sure if it has dimming capacity?

What ya think cuz?
FC
 

T-Time

Well-Known Member
Hi Prawn,

As always I really appraciate Your continuing effort to share Your knowledge! Kudos to You Brother :hump:
One thing You've said earlier about fabric pots vs plastic pots that I dont fully understand. Could You elaborate more on that please ?
I've pulled out Your posting from other thread that i've been reading same day (didnt cut it so it wouldnt loose any meanig) and I find those two sentences contradicts eachother .




Over many years of growing in coco, I've developed a simple formula for pot size: 1 litre per ounce. You may get a little more or less, but essentially if you are growing 4 plants, and you expect to get, say, 6-8oz off each plant (doable under 600W of LED), then you would need at least 8-litre (2-gallon) pots, or even 10 litres - but no bigger. A 10-litre pot is more than enough for a half-pound plant (or 10oz, below). My mate uses fabric pots and they work fine, but I've notice no real benefit, as they air prune the roots and my style of growing requires multiple waterings to deliver fresh nutrient solution and oxygen to the root zone, similar to other hydro methods.
I've tried both over the years, and what I've noticed is when you strip all the fan leaves away, you remove a lot of the plant's stored energy (in the form of starches, as well as mobile nutrients), as well as all the chloroplasts in those leaves that conduct photosynthesis.

You think of all the energy the plant has used to build those structures, as well as all the energy that is stored in them, and you have just taken that away.

After all, what is the first thing you notice about a stripped plant after you remove all it's fan leaves? The plant straight away starts to rebuild, replacing fan leaves, enlarging those that were not removed, and diverting energy into this process that could be used to build root structures, main stems, branches and new growth. You have basically stunted the plant.

Now let's have a think about the reasons for lollipopping (stripping fan leaves). It is to let light into the undergrowth, correct? Good. But after you remove all those leaves to allow light into the undergrowth, what part of the plant is it that actually uses that light? If you said "all the leaves you have just removed", you would be mostly correct.

Cannabis flowers do contain chloroplasts, so they do photosynthesise. But they are not as efficient at converting electro-magnetic energy (light) into stored energy (starches) and transportable energy (sugars) as leaves.

So that's what I mean by a "false economy" - you have allowed more light in, but you have removed the very structures that most efficiently use that light.

Similar to roots, leaves capture, store and supply energy to other parts of the plant. The less distance travelled, the more efficiently energy and nutrient can be transported. The more light, the more energy can be converted. The larger the leaf volume, the more energy can be stored.

Plants are not stupid. If there is no light, they have two choices. Just like with growing roots, they can "search" (expend energy stretching for light, like a root stretches for nutrient and moisture), or they can let that part of the plant expend its remaining energy and die, while the plant concentrates on transporting nutrient to and from other parts of the plant that have adequate light.

The plant does whatever is more efficient.

Where there is light, there is growth. Where there is no light, growth will stretch and/or eventually die off.

So what does this long post mean? It means there are more efficient ways to provide light to plants than removing all their stored energy and chloroplasts.

If you "lollipop" a plant and then put it straight into flower, you will temporarily stunt it and the plant will use valuable energy to grow new fan leaves and restore lost starches and mobile nutrients instead of expanding its structure to increase flowering sites.

If you "lollipop" a plant and then allow it to grow back in veg before putting it into flower, what have you achieved? Nothing. You've just temporarily stunted the plant and you still end up with lots of leaves anyway!

OK, so I know "lollipping" can also mean removing underdeveloped branches and growth at the bottom of the plant to turn it into a "lollipop" where most of the branches are an even height to maximise the canopy. This would be preferable, and you can also remove fan leaves at branch junctions to "stunt" (or rather slow) individual branches to allow other branches to catch up. This usually means removing some of the top fan leaves on newer branches that are higher to allow lower branches to stretch and catch up.

In terms of light and plant efficiency, an even-height canopy makes the best use of a concentration of light at that point. Filling in that canopy is the most important thing. Having enough leaf and root mass to support growth is also important. You can remove leaves and allow light to penetrate, but that light will be weaker than the light above at canopy height.

So is it better to allow weaker light to penetrate further into a canopy that has lots of holes it it (multiple layers of bud sites at different heights), or to fill in the canopy to maximise the best concentration of light at a certain height by having an even layer or "carpet" of buds?

In my opinion, it is the latter.

Many years ago, when I started growing with vertical HPS lights, there was always a debate about turning the plants on a regular basis so that the "dark" side of the plant could get more light. I tried both ways and came to the conclusion that there was no need to turn plants - because the plant would simply grow on the light side and divert all its energy into areas where there was most light. Vertical growing is like turning your canopy sideways.

This is the result. You will see that the canopies of these plants are not very thick at all! The most important thing is that all the buds are near the light and that there are no gaps (there was a gap created in the photo below to show the position of the light - otherwise it was completely surrounded by plants).

Think of your horizontal canopy like this vertical canop. And I did not strip fan leaves from any of these plants!
View attachment 4219989

View attachment 4219990

View attachment 4219996
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Thanks Mr Or_Gro but I'm a bit hamstrung for height, I don't need them to get massive, just that initial stage from clones to early veg with a nice wee root ball. As per the Prawns I'm guessing about 1 litre pots.

So Prawn this looks like the strip I need? 3 or 4 of them? Is it worth throwing some 5000k into the mix or stick with 4000k?
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/si-b8t521560ww/samsung-electronics

Driver option looks like:
HLG-240h-48a is 3 bucks cheaper than the 185 version at US$58.00, running at half power I could just mount on the ally heat sink.

ELG-240-48a runs at $43
ELG-200-48a at $41
ELG-150-48 at $33 - not sure if it has dimming capacity?

What ya think cuz?
FC
Hi mate PM sent. I reckon spruik for the H_Influx strips and get four of them for decent coverage (and in case you want to up the tempo later).

You can run a 42V driver with the H_Influx, so I might suggest something like this:

https://www.arrow.com/en/products/hlg-150h-42a/mean-well-enterprises?utm_campaign=arrow_findchips_2018&utm_currency=&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_source=findchips&utm_content=inv_listing

I'm not sure about the adjustability of the ELG drivers - I'll have to look it up later and let you know (unless someone else chimes in).
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Hi Prawn,

As always I really appraciate Your continuing effort to share Your knowledge! Kudos to You Brother :hump:
One thing You've said earlier about fabric pots vs plastic pots that I dont fully understand. Could You elaborate more on that please ?
I've pulled out Your posting from other thread that i've been reading same day (didnt cut it so it wouldnt loose any meanig) and I find those two sentences contradicts eachother .
Hi mate, if you read up on SOG growing, you'll see one of the reasons it promotes such fast growth is the root mass per plant vs energy expended, and the fact roots do not have to grow long to supply nutrient, providing a shorter pathway.

However, shorter roots are no substitute for root mass itself: bigger roots nearly always mean bigger yields. Shorter roots on shorter plants are more efficient, but you need more of them to make up the yield (SOG theory).

Does that make sense?

Having plastic pots with only one pathway for the nutrient solution - water in the top, waste out the bottom - forces the pot to flush with each watering. Fabric pots tend to dry all over the surface area, and so as they dry, salts can build up. Air pruning can also reduce root mass, as roots may not grow as densely near the surface areas of the pot (essentially the entire inner surface).

Now, I've learned a few things over the years, and one of the things I've learned is that, if something works, it works! So if you find you are getting excellent results with fabric pots, don't let me talk you out of it!

But by the same token, my friend who is growing in fabric pots has seen no increase in yield (everything else is the same) and in some cases there has been a slight decrease. That may also have to do with the fabric pots taking up a bit more space inside his catchment pots, reducing root mass.

To surmise, I haven't seen any real benefit to using fabric pots in drain-to-waste systems, and they may in fact be slightly detrimental to that style of growing.

I'm always happy for someone to contradict me, but that's been my experience over the past 12-18 months.
 

T-Time

Well-Known Member
Hi mate, if you read up on SOG growing, you'll see one of the reasons it promotes such fast growth is the root mass per plant vs energy expended, and the fact roots do not have to grow long to supply nutrient, providing a shorter pathway.

However, shorter roots are no substitute for root mass itself: bigger roots nearly always mean bigger yields. Shorter roots on shorter plants are more efficient, but you need more of them to make up the yield (SOG theory).

Does that make sense?

Having plastic pots with only one pathway for the nutrient solution - water in the top, waste out the bottom - forces the pot to flush with each watering. Fabric pots tend to dry all over the surface area, and so as they dry, salts can build up. Air pruning can also reduce root mass, as roots may not grow as densely near the surface areas of the pot (essentially the entire inner surface).

Now, I've learned a few things over the years, and one of the things I've learned is that, if something works, it works! So if you find you are getting excellent results with fabric pots, don't let me talk you out of it!

But by the same token, my friend who is growing in fabric pots has seen no increase in yield (everything else is the same) and in some cases there has been a slight decrease. That may also have to do with the fabric pots taking up a bit more space inside his catchment pots, reducing root mass.

To surmise, I haven't seen any real benefit to using fabric pots in drain-to-waste systems, and they may in fact be slightly detrimental to that style of growing.

I'm always happy for someone to contradict me, but that's been my experience over the past 12-18 months.
Makes sense :)
Interesting stuff, I might do side by side next grow. I always thought more shorter roots is better then having a rootbound in the pot. Than again I though defoliation is always better. I'm doing a run without it to see the results for myself.

Your approach is right one, but You've got enought expirience behind Your belt to say that. I've still plenty to learn, so will be checking new ideas for grows to come. Walking the walk... ;)
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
PC the ELG series have 3 models, A = built in pots, B = 0-10 V remote pot needed, no designation means no dimming at all.
Thanks for the heads up, I will suss out and get back to you before I purchase.
FC
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
@T-Time yeah these Aussies might not be much chop when it comes to cricket but certainly pretty helpful when it comes to growing the devil's weed:mrgreen:

PC, yeah, I did wonder about sticking with the 48V stuff for later on down the track:wink:

FC
 

Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
Order is on it's way, 4 x H_Influx L09 and I went with the HLG-240H-48A driver because it's earthed at the power supply.

18g solid core or 16g multi strand for the board connectors?

My wife is gonna think I'm addicted to this caper:shock:
 
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Frank Cannon

Well-Known Member
Gents, currently have a RS150 Ruck Can-fan. I would like to put a temp controller on it whereby I can set minimum speed for odour control. Is there anthing around that does this that you have found works well. Its hot here so there will be alot of times when it runs flat chat regardless but for winter it might be nice to have it dialled in a bit better.
I run it with a silencer and carbon filter, not averse to buying a new integrated unit but db needs to be considered, current operation is around 59 decibels.

As usual appreciate the constructive comments.

FC
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Looks cool. Do you have twin fans (inlet and exhaust)? If not, I guess the first one is the best option. You'd need a temp sensor. Is noise a problem? I do like the idea of self-regulating during different seasons to maintain internal temps.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Order is on it's way, 4 x H_Influx L09 and I went with the HLG-240H-48A driver because it's earthed at the power supply.

18g solid core or 16g multi strand for the board connectors?

My wife is gonna think I'm addicted to this caper:shock:
I use solid - it's easier for plugging into the connectors. Only use multistrand if it's for wiring that is going to be moved around a lot - solid core will break from metal fatigue if you bend it back and forth too much.

ELG's not earthed? That seems to vaguely ring a bell . . . o_O
 
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