OceanForest/HappyFrog Soil do you feed in addition or just water?

[kushdaddy1980]

"A lot of people were saying it needs that much perlite and gave that exact percentage (33% not half). I saw this multiple times"
in my experience with fox farm ocean forest is that it holds a massive amount of water for a rediculous amount of time, i had to use a crazy amount of perlite to get it to dry out right. The advice i took was "when it looks like its too much, its just right" and my soil mixes have worked great since then. ShLUby has been a lot of help for me as well ive read some good advice from him on this thread too.(thanks @ShLUbY)

 

[ShLUbY]

"A lot of people were saying it needs that much perlite and gave that exact percentage (33% not half). I saw this multiple times"
in my experience with fox farm ocean forest is that it holds a massive amount of water for a rediculous amount of time, i had to use a crazy amount of perlite to get it to dry out right. The advice i took was "when it looks like its too much, its just right" and my soil mixes have worked great since then. ShLUby has been a lot of help for me as well ive read some good advice from him on this thread too.(thanks @ShLUbY)

haha i believe it was @Wetdog that said "when it looks like its too much, it's just right" lol. he's a good advisor as well

 

[Wetdog]

It’s it’s equal parts Ocean Forest including the perlite, Happy Frog including aeration, and perlite/hydroton so if we’re looking at the total soil aeration (perlite and hydroton) it’s more than half. A lot of people were saying it needs that much perlite and gave that exact percentage (33% not half). I saw this multiple times. and in the past I have had watering problems and I thought I was overwatering when maybe it was underwayered. So yeah I didn’t go with my gut (it’s too much perlite) and I did it.

There is a vast amount of information, styles, and opinions. It can become quite confusing. I mean look at all the contradicting opinions in this thread. I’m just going to practice patience and observation. I’m starting a Horticulture class at my community college this Winter/Spring. I’ll figure it out.

This clears up a lot though. Definitely not using Smartpots for my tomatoes outside. That’s probably why I harvested 2 tomatoes this last FALL not summer. I live in the south where temps were in the 90’s in May and I sprouted them indoors late February/early March. Couldn’t get my Cherokee Purple tomatoes to set. The soil was getting dried up.

Ahhh .... You've also noticed that sometimes Smartpots aren't so smart after all. I quit using them indoors 7 or 8 years ago and even outdoors found that anything under 20 gallons or so were just Meh at best. I've had the best results indoors with the square 8 gallon GroPro heavy plastic pots. The 5gal are Ok if you're really squeezed for space. The square shape prevents the roots from "spinning" like with round pots, but no one really knows why.

I'm in the piedmont of SC where it's plenty warm, but mainly with big fluctuations in temp and humidity during the day. A 30* difference in high and low temps is fairly common.

Listen to ShULbY and stop with all the additives, your worm bin provides all that's needed by a long shot not to mention what the plants themselves provide. The soil and plants will reach their own balance and have been for millenia. That course you're going to take should help and listening to gardeners rather than 'canna experts' will better serve you. I DO know that when I finally started treating my canna the same as my container veggies the weird problems pretty much dissapeared.

I've only been doing organics for ~10 years, but have been making my own mix for over 45 years. The 33% perlite worked Ok using Jack's Classic or even my early organics with concentrated stuff like blood meal and guanos. When I shifted more to seed meals and the worm bins producing, the mix started giving me problems because of the increased organic matter (OM), that was being introduced. Drainage and aeration went to shit and that 33% just wasn't cutting it. I now start with 40% perlite and also bumped my pine bark mulch (always a part of my mix), to ~10%, bumping total aeration to close to 50%. Big improvement!

The pine bark mulch is something to consider, it brings a lot to the table and is cheap enough at~$2.50 for a 2cf bag at HD or Lowes.

Gotta scoot for now, but will be glad to help if I can. But I doubt I would have anything much different than ShULbY has to say.

Wet

 

[DankTankerous]

Ahhh .... You've also noticed that sometimes Smartpots aren't so smart after all. I quit using them indoors 7 or 8 years ago and even outdoors found that anything under 20 gallons or so were just Meh at best. I've had the best results indoors with the square 8 gallon GroPro heavy plastic pots. The 5gal are Ok if you're really squeezed for space. The square shape prevents the roots from "spinning" like with round pots, but no one really knows why.

I'm in the piedmont of SC where it's plenty warm, but mainly with big fluctuations in temp and humidity during the day. A 30* difference in high and low temps is fairly common.

Listen to ShULbY and stop with all the additives, your worm bin provides all that's needed by a long shot not to mention what the plants themselves provide. The soil and plants will reach their own balance and have been for millenia. That course you're going to take should help and listening to gardeners rather than 'canna experts' will better serve you. I DO know that when I finally started treating my canna the same as my container veggies the weird problems pretty much dissapeared.

I've only been doing organics for ~10 years, but have been making my own mix for over 45 years. The 33% perlite worked Ok using Jack's Classic or even my early organics with concentrated stuff like blood meal and guanos. When I shifted more to seed meals and the worm bins producing, the mix started giving me problems because of the increased organic matter (OM), that was being introduced. Drainage and aeration went to shit and that 33% just wasn't cutting it. I now start with 40% perlite and also bumped my pine bark mulch (always a part of my mix), to ~10%, bumping total aeration to close to 50%. Big improvement!

The pine bark mulch is something to consider, it brings a lot to the table and is cheap enough at~$2.50 for a 2cf bag at HD or Lowes.

Gotta scoot for now, but will be glad to help if I can. But I doubt I would have anything much different than ShULbY has to say.

Wet

Thank you! That was some great advice. I do have access to pine bark mulch and will definitely be looking into it. Unless I can nail it down with this grow, i’ll be switching to those pots or similar. I never did any research on Smartpots, just saw a lot of people using and recommending. I don’t think there’s a thread on water plants in Smartpots because I have looked.

 

[DankTankerous]

Hey Folks,

It’s been 4 days since being topped and they’ve grown quite a bit since then. Yesterday I saw quite a bit of growth, but not too much today. Hopefully I didn’t add too much water. The pots do feel heavy still and when picked up water does run out. Should I take off the seran wrap or keep it on? I do believe by tomorrow the soil should be evenly moist, what do y’all think?

The Madcap #1 isn’t looking so hot. It’s still growing quite a bit, but it’s yellowish green with ridges. I’m seeing some purple striping on the new growth on Madcap #2. Tomorrow I will be staking to train for a manifold. Here are some pictures below, the last two photos I had to turn the brightness of the photo up.

Madcap#2

C99

Madcap #1

 

[ShLUbY]

yeah if they seem properly hydrated (sounds like they are), then you can remove the wrap. now that you are at the field capacity of your containers, make a note of their weight. with that small of plants it'll be probably 3days before you need to water again. your target weight should be a few lbs lighter than where they are now. but at least now you know the difference between heavy and light

 

[DankTankerous]

yeah if they seem properly hydrated (sounds like they are), then you can remove the wrap. now that you are at the field capacity of your containers, make a note of their weight. with that small of plants it'll be probably 3days before you need to water again. your target weight should be a few lbs lighter than where they are now. but at least now you know the difference between heavy and light

Thank you for all your help! I will update you it in a few days

 

[Perception]

Just a few comments based on what I’ve read:

Molasses: I definitely agree that you need to quit the molasses and any other additives for now. Molasses also has high magnesium, which will throw off your calcium/magnesium ratio, and build up salts in the soil. You may even notice a white crust forming on surface of soil. Magnesium also lowers PH. Just leave it out.

Pots: I personally stopped using smart pots because I didn’t like how quickly they dried out (dry climate here), but they DO work if you manage watering properly, and there is nothing wrong with them. It doesn’t hurt you to start a baby plant in a larger pot like you have, but if you do this then you need to have very good watering skills. Lots of excess soil will hold water for a long time, and could damage your roots from suffocating them (think drowning) if you overwater. On the positive side, your soil won’t go dry as quickly with larger pots. But you need to know how to water just the right amount in this scenario. Not too much, not too little. Watering technique just takes time to develop - you are asking the right questions though!

With such a little plant in that larger pot, I’d guess that you won’t need to add any nutrients until you flip to flower. When I did FFOF soil grows, the plants definitely run out of food in flower ( 3 or 5 gal smart pots, 3 to 4 foot tall plants). The simplest thing I ever did to make sure they had enough food in flower was to add a granular high nitrogen food to the pot when transplanting to a larger pot for flower. I usually did 3” pots, to 1 gal pots through veg, then up-potted to 3 or 5 gal pots and flip to flower then or within a week. All FFOF soil.

Good luck!

 

[DankTankerous]

Hey Folks,

Plants are looking much much better, in fact better than ever. There is still purple-ing on the stems, but very green, full leaves.

The c-99 drank quite a bit, the weight went down by 2lbs, Madcap#1 went down a 1lb and 6 ounces.

How much water should I give them, the amount that was lost?

 

[ShLUbY]

looking much better man! we can't tell you how much water to replace. you have to get a feel for it on your own. just remember, no runoff, and don't let it get light. vary between those two points and you will have no problems at all. maybe you want to get a scale to put them on to tell how much water to add. a gallon of water weighs 8lbs for reference. and a 3gal pot (i think that's what you said these are?) will never take a gallon without runoff. so you're looking to have a fluctuation of 2-4lbs of water (1/4-1/2 gallon) when watering. so water it, weight it, and when it weight 4lbs less... it's probably time to water again. if you water and there is runoff, give it a day before you take the weight, and then keep track from there. hope this helps

 

[DankTankerous]

looking much better man! we can't tell you how much water to replace. you have to get a feel for it on your own. just remember, no runoff, and don't let it get light. vary between those two points and you will have no problems at all. maybe you want to get a scale to put them on to tell how much water to add. a gallon of water weighs 8lbs for reference. and a 3gal pot (i think that's what you said these are?) will never take a gallon without runoff. so you're looking to have a fluctuation of 2-4lbs of water (1/4-1/2 gallon) when watering. so water it, weight it, and when it weight 4lbs less... it's probably time to water again. if you water and there is runoff, give it a day before you take the weight, and then keep track from there. hope this helps

Just curious, it was 3+ lbs under original weight, but when giving them 20oz of water all 3 had runoff. Yesterday Madcap #2 was drooping, but today it was up, even before watering. I feel like I’m learning how to grow all over again... and really I am.

 

[ShLUbY]

Just curious, it was 3+ lbs under original weight, but when giving them 20oz of water all 3 had runoff. Yesterday Madcap #2 was drooping, but today it was up, even before watering. I feel like I’m learning how to grow all over again... and really I am.

ok so like i said, your first measurements are just reference points. so now you have a little more info on when you should be watering them. sounds like you can let them go a couple lbs lighter this time. and your soil, internally, may not have even fully rehydrated yet. soil that gets too dehydrated can be a bitch to get back in shape, as i've mentioned . Glad you're seeing improvements though, as i knew you would!

 

[DankTankerous]

Here are some photos from yesterday

 

[DankTankerous]

ok so like i said, your first measurements are just reference points. so now you have a little more info on when you should be watering them. sounds like you can let them go a couple lbs lighter this time. and your soil, internally, may not have even fully rehydrated yet. soil that gets too dehydrated can be a bitch to get back in shape, as i've mentioned . Glad you're seeing improvements though, as i knew you would!

Cool, thanks again dude

 

[Nizza]

I think you may have been having the initial problem due to the intake being right next to your smart pot. I agree the soil is rich by itself it could feed that plant until it's a foot or two tall

 

[Greenthumbs256]

Soil Recipe
33% Happy Frog
33% Ocean Forest
33% Perlite/hydroton

My plants are growing kind of slow and have a papery texture and are showing signs of illness. Every time I foiliar feed (Alfalfa, Kelp, IPM, Microblast, Kashi Tea, and Fulvex) they react as if they really needed it. Leaves are praying and have strength but between waterings they’re somewhat down.

So I’m thinking of adding a quarter to half dose of Neptune’s Fish Hydrolysate and Fish Emulsion. Since the amendments are breaking down slowly I could see how giving some fish feed could help.

Anybody have any experience with this?

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This C99 was transplanted a week ago still droopy

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u need to try out a sip man, it's so easy, if u set it up right, anyone can grow impressive plants and not have to know a dam thjng!

 

[DankTankerous]

I think you may have been having the initial problem due to the intake being right next to your smart pot. I agree the soil is rich by itself it could feed that plant until it's a foot or two tall

You bring up a very interesting point. I think next grow I will not being using smart pots, however I think I might be getting the hang of them.

u need to try out a sip man, it's so easy, if u set it up right, anyone can grow impressive plants and not have to know a dam thjng!

Hey dude thank you for stopping by! I’m impressed by your grows and have thought about doing it because of your grows. I will definitely consider that, these past few grows have kicked my ass. I really want to blame it all on smart pots, but I was over-doing everything.

I’m seeing some lightness on the leaves and what looks like calcium def. but on the C99 I added 2 tbsp of Crab meal, so I can’t imagine it to be Calcium def. Also I’m getting some burnt tips on my Madcap #1 and I haven’t been feeding them anything for the past 2 weeks at least.

 

[Greenthumbs256]

You bring up a very interesting point. I think next grow I will not being using smart pots, however I think I might be getting the hang of them.



Hey dude thank you for stopping by! I’m impressed by your grows and have thought about doing it because of your grows. I will definitely consider that, these past few grows have kicked my ass. I really want to blame it all on smart pots, but I was over-doing everything.

I’m seeing some lightness on the leaves and what looks like calcium def. but on the C99 I added 2 tbsp of Crab meal, so I can’t imagine it to be Calcium def. Also I’m getting some burnt tips on my Madcap #1 and I haven’t been feeding them anything for the past 2 weeks at least.
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yea all the rest of my girls have issues here and there as well, that's the whole reason I started looking into other methods, with the way I'm running these sips it's almost dummy prof, which is the whole reason I wanted to try it, plus the minimum amount of work once it's set up!

 

[Nizza]

Did you fix your intake issue? this is your underlying problem
with smart pots you want to raise the drain pan above the air intake because all that's happening is the air is cutting through and giving the roots too much air.
also , I have excellent success not cutting the soil with any perlite. the perlite combined with the smart pots is also redundant, the smart pot itself will improve drainage and air circulation no need for more. i put milk crates on my drain pan allowing air to go below the pots and around instead of forced through, and this works great because the soil is denser only the outer inch or so dries out

try this next time and especially with living soil I would bet it would be better than any plastic containers.
try Air pots too-- they are expensive but super easy to transplant from and also cleaning them is so simple. https://air-pot.com/garden/
Good luck bro just my insight on using the smart pots, they have always given me way bigger yields than plastic closed pots.

the only thing i recommend adding is possibly 1 tbsp/gal of soil of slow release lime. I use straight happy frog because the ocean forests powdered oyster shell really doesnt buffer the pH for as long as i need it too happy frog seems to lack calmag mid flower and on

Also... what are your daytime and night time intake temperatures?

 

[Greenthumbs256]

with smart pots you want to raise the drain pan above the air intake because all that's happening is the air is cutting through and giving the roots too much air.
also , I have excellent success not cutting the soil with any perlite. the perlite combined with the smart pots is also redundant, the smart pot itself will improve drainage and air circulation no need for more.

try this next time and especially with living soil I would bet it would be better than any plastic containers.
try Air pots too-- they are expensive but super easy to transplant from and also cleaning them is so simple.
Good luck bro just my insight on using the smart pots, they have always given me way bigger yields than plastic pots.

the only thing i recommend adding is possibly 1 tbsp/gal of soil of slow release lime. I use straight happy frog because the ocean forests powdered oyster shell really doesnt buffer the pH for as long as i need it too happy frog seems to lack calmag mid flower and on

I have to disagree with u on the perlite and smart pot thing.

when I was still running smart pots I used to out a good 1-2 layer of perlite on the very bottom, and it seemed to really make a big difference! but I won't ever use any kind if pots again other than sips!