crispy leaves late in flower, brown crispy spots on buds at harvest.

[TheGreatSouthern]

We are not discussing oral or dermal we are discussing vaporization and/or combustion and subsequent inhalation. Please link me to your peer reviewed science demonstrating safety in the human organism.
Thank you

Grow up. You and I both know that data doesn't exist.
There isn't even any data on oral, dermal or inhalation effects of the chemicals on humans. A couple of animal studies and that's it. I read the ones I could find ages ago when I was considering going the PGR route and from memory they were exposing animals to upwards of 1200mg per kg of body weight per day for up to two years and observing some liver swelling and reduction in sperm count, and the studies indicated that effects on humans would be about the same. So an 80kg person would have to consume 102 grams of Paclobutrazol per day to replicate the effects on that animal study? something like that anyway.
One study I read indicated that human greenhouse workers should be able to work safely at an inhalation rate of about 65 micrograms per day, but the point is the studies that have been done on PGRs and their effect on animals aren't relevant to what we're doing with it and yet opponents pick bits out of those studies anyway and treat them as if they're vitally important.
To even consider having an actual discussion about PGRs in cannabis and the effects on the user we would need to know how much the plant uptakes, how much is residual in the bud, how much converts to nitrosamines when smoked and how much remains as PBZ and how much of that is absorbed by the user and we would need to know the safe inhalation limit for both compounds. If I had to guess, and I'm just taking a stab in the dark, I'd say the amount absorbed would be so far below what's considered an acceptable limit people would wonder what all the fuss was about.
It's a bit like those GMO soybeans I was going on about, everyone freaked out about what's going to happen when people eat them and now almost all soy beans are GMO and nobody cares. Then about 6 months ago everyone goes crazy again because GMO cereals being glyphosate resistant are getting sprayed with roundup and traces of roundup are turning up in almost all breakfast cereals on the self, and everyone goes mental about it, then some actual science comes along and it turns out the levels of glypho in the retail product are so low they're barely detectable and quite safe and everyone just goes back to business as usual.
So unless you're the FDA, you've got no business getting up there on your high horse and telling people not to use something until a peer reviewed study showing it's safe gets done. PGRs are here to stay and the best way to manage them is by educating the end user (without fearmongering) so he can make an informed choice.

 

[cannabineer]

Just to run some numbers and get an idea...


200lb guy = ~91kg


91kg × (0.04mg/kg ADI)
=
3.64mg ADI chlormequat


91kg × (0.10mg/kg ADI)
=
9.1mg ADI paclobutrazol

If this guy smokes a gram a day he can't have more than .36% of his product be chlormequat and can't have more than .91% of his product be paclobutrazol or he'd be over his ADI.

I wonder what MJ tests at when these chemicals have been used. Is there test results by chance? The largest remnant of the chemical I found was 1.19mg/kg on mushrooms, but maybe I'm misinterpreting. If the most un-ideal food on here were to actually translate to MJ, that 200lb guy would have to eat/smoke 3+kg a day to hit the chlormequat ADI, correct (3.64mg ÷ 1.19mg/kg ~3.05kg)?
View attachment 4274779

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15385216/

What do magical numbers have to do with logic or reasoned argument?

You are also obfuscating one of the elephants in the room, which is that ingestion or dermal absorption cannot be used to discuss the etiology of combusted or inhaled substances. Your pretend numbers are a diversion from the actual issues.

 

[Brock_Fawkin_Samson]

Thank you for the rest of the post which is personal insult (if not as elegant as I have come to expect), and that means you care. Just be sure to spell my name right.

I actually really like your insight and value your opinion. Just wanted to reciprocate a little.

 

[TheGreatSouthern]

You kinda went at the guy here I thought after he explained he talked with the client and the client asked for it. To me that's pretty transparent.
.

Right on. you can't have a conversation with someone who picks a few words he likes out of a post you made, strings them together to suit him and then plasters you with them.

 

[Brock_Fawkin_Samson]

What do magical numbers have to do with logic or reasoned argument?

You are also obfuscating one of the elephants in the room, which is that ingestion or dermal absorption cannot be used to discuss the etiology of combusted or inhaled substances. Your pretend numbers are a diversion from the actual issues.

Lol you must have missed the part where I stated if they were translatable. Also must have missed how I tried to use the worst sample to show how much it would take to reach an ingestible ADI (had they been translatable).

Its amusing to hear you tell me that they aren't translatable and thus irrelevant to what you so vehemently are against. And if not for the tests I've posted, then I guess for some secret research you're holding out on me?

You use the non translatable research to stoke your fear of the chemical, then get mad when I take your sentiment and run with it. You can't stand on both sides.

But, it is correct according to the limited data posted, that using the worst sample, you'd have to eat 6.6lbs+ of weed a day to even reach your ADI of the lowest toxicity threshold chemical in question (using the most un-ideal sample). More than 178lbs to finally reach acute levels. Are you saying that combusting the chemical could somehow increase toxicity?

 

[cannabineer]

I say the same to you. In order to defend a speculation one would have to do the studies. I'm being objective, you're being subjective. There is no data, that's the only reality. We can bitch at each other till we're blue in the face but neither stance can be progressed without the data (we both painstakenly know this). To be clear, I'm not saying that's it's not toxic after combusted, I'm saying there's no data to say one way or the other. That's my point. I'm not saying I'm right but I'm not saying anyone's right. I don't think it's sound to berate someone on a speculation when there is no data. And again this is a secondary argument you made up when I asked about how the OP wasn't being transparent.

The OP did not disclose the ingredients to the end user. The data being absent, that weed is not safe. If that is not a sufficiently elementary breakdown of his malice for you, you're simply being contrary now.

 

[TheGreatSouthern]

This is gold. I've really kicked the hornet's nest. Seriously PGRs need a sticky.

 

[TheGreatSouthern]

The OP did not disclose the ingredients to the end user.

Not my job, I have one customer who takes it all. That's his job and he was given all the information he needs and asked if he wanted this stuff grown PGR or not. you want me to stick a warning label on every Oz? Maybe I should email every stoner in the country or hand out flyers or something.

 

[cannabineer]

Right on. you can't have a conversation with someone who picks a few words he likes out of a post you made, strings them together to suit him and then plasters you with them.

You're the one selling poison weed willingly. Put the rock down and slowly exit the glass house. Note the bolded; you did NOT disclose except to your wholesaler.

We could debate whether using PGRs is a good thing or a bad thing all day long and never come to agreement on anything so I guess the best thing to do is agree to disagree. I told the guy I grow this for exactly what I understand about PGRs which is this: "They make the bud denser and heavier, they might be harmful but there's no concrete evidence that they are, they are commonly used in agriculture but not on things you smoke and it's possible in theory that when you smoke pot grown with them it might, maybe, be bad for you." And he's like "Yeah, use it."
As far as I'm concerned that's about all I'm morally obligated to do, maybe he's saying the same thing to the people he supplies it to and maybe he isn't - it's not my problem once it's his pot.
It was only a decade ago people said GMO soybeans were going to make a trillion people drop dead from cancer.


Anyways, the long and the short of it is that it looks like you guys are right about the bud rot, I cut an affected bud apart today and it's mouldy inside. Thankfully only a small percentage is affected. I guess we can put it down to the added density from the PGRs coupled with too much humidity and possibly not enough air circulation. Ah wells, you dance with the devil.

This has become the classic frustration-argument trollfest with you. Enjoy this pursuit while I go do something more useful than this.

 

[TheGreatSouthern]

Are you saying that combusting the chemical could somehow increase toxicity?

Supposedly, Paclobutrazol makes one or more nitrosamines under thermal decomposition. Nitrosamines are those things in cured smallgoods that get produced from curing salt when you cook it and are generally accepted to be the reason bacon gives you cancer.
I can't find any data on which nitrosamines PBZ breaks down into, how much, what the safe limits are or anything else relevant (although I can't be bothered looking very hard), so I'm assuming the anti PGR folks are just loosely linking bacon cancer with PBZ cancer and adding it to the "reasons we're not sure why it's bad but we just think it's bad" list.

 

[Brock_Fawkin_Samson]

The OP did not disclose the ingredients to the end user. The data being absent, that weed is not safe. If that is that a sufficiently elementary breakdown of his malice for you, you're simply being contrary now.

Lol 6.6lbs

 

[curious2garden]

You're the one selling poison weed willingly. Put the rock down and slowly exit the glass house. Note the bolded; you did NOT disclose except to your wholesaler.


This has become the classic frustration-argument trollfest with you. Enjoy this pursuit while I go do something more useful than this.

This is precisely why prohibition is dangerous. There are always unscrupulous people who will make a buck no matter who they hurt. Just ignore the kids, the net will catch them soon enough. I guess they are too new to realize this site is owned by the NSA LOL

 

[Ryante55]

All this talk about pgrs being poison....are we forgetting his weed looks like shit you add all these products that extend flower time an give you shitty plants I would say don't use pgr because they give you shitty results but hey if you want to pretend you increased yield more power to you.

 

[cannabineer]

Lol 6.6lbs

Thanks; I fixed the hung adverb.

 

[Brock_Fawkin_Samson]

Lol acute levels are 1.06mg/kg bw..

For a 200lb guy that's 96.36mg.

Or if we use the most un-ideal sample (most toxic) and translate to MJ...

178lbs+

 

[cannabineer]

All this talk about pgrs being poison....are we forgetting his weed looks like shit you add all these products that extend flower time an give you shitty plants I would say don't use pgr because they give you shitty results but hey if you want to pretend you increased yield more power to you.

Good point. Why increase yield at the cost of growing weed smart people will not wish to smoke? His wholesaler's clients/victims are probably clueless middle-school kids who are the ones being nickeled and dimed to the point of possible harm.

 

[Brock_Fawkin_Samson]

This is precisely why prohibition is dangerous. There are always unscrupulous people who will make a buck no matter who they hurt. Just ignore the kids, the net will catch them soon enough. I guess they are too new to realize this site is owned by the NSA LOL

Don't forget the CIA too

Hell lets get all the alphabet men up in here

 

[TheGreatSouthern]

you did NOT disclose except to your wholesaler.

I'd love to hear how you think I should educate my customer's customers on PGRs. I've never met any of them and I'm not keen to and they all live about ten hours drive away. There must be hundreds of them. I figured educating my customer was the best way to go about it.

This has become the classic frustration-argument trollfest with you. Enjoy this pursuit while I go do something more useful than this.

Sounds more like you love it and you'll be back.

 

[TheGreatSouthern]

Don't forget the CIA too

Hell lets get all the alphabet men up in here

GCSB. Our gestapo has more letters than your gestapo

 

[xtsho]

I'd love to hear how you think I should educate my customer's customers on PGRs. I've never met any of them and I'm not keen to and they all live about ten hours drive away. There must be hundreds of them. I figured educating my customer was the best way to go about it.



Sounds more like you love it and you'll be back.

Hey, don't take it the wrong way but that weed looks like crap. I don't know anyone that would buy it. You must have some customers with low expectations. That would be in my compost pile right now.

Anyway, take another bong hit but not of that.