Potency differences between phenotypes

Khyber420

Well-Known Member
You've been out of school too long. I clearly know the definition and difference between the two. Selective breeding is a form of genetic modification. It's not up for debate. Things change.
Selective breeding is not a meaningful use of the term bio engineered aka genetically modified orgamism. You cannot combine genetic material from different species via breeding. Full stop. You're arguing semantics simply to play devil's advocate. Put your strawman down and look for a fight elsewhere?

So is Neal D. Tyson an idiot because he says gmo's are created by selective breeding. You can google it and watch a video of him saying such.
Hes not an idiot, but his definition of GMO in that context totally differs from this one. Yes in a very basic, non meaningful use of the word, selective breeding creates a new organism as a result of shared genetics from its parents. But who cares, that's meaningless. What we are taking about here is bioengineering in the lab that has the capability to combine genetic material from totally different species. For example bio engineered silk worms that produce spiders silk.

The point is if some dude in an expensive suit has enough money he can probably pay some dude in a white lab coat to engineer a strain of weed with specific characteristics, patent it, sell it to big agriculture and slowly kill off the small growers. Especially if bureaucracy and regulations favor the large scale grower, and I can tell you right now here in Canada THEY DO. Pretty standard market economics that has happened in plenty places world wide. Have people already forgot about Percy Schmeiser?
 

dstroy

Well-Known Member
Selective breeding is not a meaningful use of the term bio engineered aka genetically modified orgamism. You cannot combine genetic material from different species via breeding. Full stop. You're arguing semantics simply to play devil's advocate. Put your strawman down and look for a fight elsewhere?
Simple selection and genetic engineering are both forms of genetic modification. Don’t know what your problem is.
 

Spazz24

Well-Known Member
Man why all the big headed cockiness in some of this thread. We’re all here because we love the same thing at the end of the day. Whether you’re cutting 50 plants a month or 1 we still share the passion. Some people need to humble themselves and relax. There’s doctors and medications for that too btw.
 

Spazz24

Well-Known Member
You can agree to disagree on things or if you know someone is 100% wrong about something and there is only one way to do something, educate not humiliate and act like a dickhead. Not a good look.
 

GreenHighlander

Well-Known Member
Wow, a lot of people on here like giving unrequested pessimistic business advice. I know the costs, and I've done the research. @BigHornBuds No, it doesn't cost 100k to get a licence if you have a brain and can write the paperwork yourself. You're making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.
@Khyber420 that may have been the case with medicinal cannabis, but from what I've read the new licences will allow an influx of black market genetics.
Thanks bertaluchi, that was the info I needed.
Seeing as how you have to have your facility fully built and ready to go before even applying, I would say you are actually going to need far more then 100k.
You might have a great mind for business.Who knows. But based on your first post you have nowhere near the grow knowledge you need to have.
I say all of this because it is quite obvious you do not know all the costs and haven't done all the research.
@BigHornBuds actually gave you the best advice. You are obviously no expert in the field so your only hope is to hire one.

Cheers :)
 

thenotsoesoteric

Well-Known Member
Selective breeding is not a meaningful use of the term bio engineered aka genetically modified orgamism. You cannot combine genetic material from different species via breeding. Full stop. You're arguing semantics simply to play devil's advocate. Put your strawman down and look for a fight elsewhere?



Hes not an idiot, but his definition of GMO in that context totally differs from this one. Yes in a very basic, non meaningful use of the word, selective breeding creates a new organism as a result of shared genetics from its parents. But who cares, that's meaningless. What we are taking about here is bioengineering in the lab that has the capability to combine genetic material from totally different species. For example bio engineered silk worms that produce spiders silk.

The point is if some dude in an expensive suit has enough money he can probably pay some dude in a white lab coat to engineer a strain of weed with specific characteristics, patent it, sell it to big agriculture and slowly kill off the small growers. Especially if bureaucracy and regulations favor the large scale grower, and I can tell you right now here in Canada THEY DO. Pretty standard market economics that has happened in plenty places world wide. Have people already forgot about Percy Schmeiser?
The comments I responded to were definitely saying selective breeding wasn't gmo, it is. Bio engineering is just a different kind of modification.

Besides everyone knows pig dna and elephant dna just wont splice.
 

johnnynice

Well-Known Member
Seeing as how you have to have your facility fully built and ready to go before even applying, I would say you are actually going to need far more then 100k.
You might have a great mind for business.Who knows. But based on your first post you have nowhere near the grow knowledge you need to have.
I say all of this because it is quite obvious you do not know all the costs and haven't done all the research.
@BigHornBuds actually gave you the best advice. You are obviously no expert in the field so your only hope is to hire one.

Cheers :)
Off topic, I never asked for misguided business advice.
 

johnnynice

Well-Known Member
THAT is still a rather conservative answer!

When doing real pheno hunts for breeders.. Your talking hundreds of beans run to sort for just those few.

I know of a strain that is 1:200 - 1:250 beans to find that "holy grail" pheno of utter potency...

I got high running % pheno's from some strains that took no more then 12 beans to run through.

I just finished a long term hunt through F1 beans under the idea that something better was still out there..

I found it! I'm GEEKED! This shit knocked Gelato 33 to the curb! Tried with 4 friends and I have never felt so kicked in the head....
This is insane shit and I intend to do some S1's from a clone or 2.....She has down the road breeding appointments also..

Don;t even ask about a clone or a cut. My price will be stupid, and this does happen too... Cured (not quite finished) and jarred smells like a sewer (no shit, pun not intended) and tastes like candy...SOO sweet!

Not to long ago. I did a basic pheno hunt, starting run of 24 beans. I got 14 distinct differing pheno's, 4 copies and 8 males. The potency spread was tested and it went from low of 7% to a high of 24.8 %

There could be something bigger lurking out there but, taking into consideration of just what went into that cross.... I feel the 24+% is the near max..... It just doesn't have the props to go higher in it's breeding.....That is my opinion....


Average % spread is the math spread of the strains line, related to the laws of breeding.... Laws do get "broken" but they are few and farther between then many think...Some, closer.

POINT:
Femming a plant for female seeds (S1) makes for NO Guarantee of 100% Female seeds! Males in S1 seeds DO happens and at a rate of 1:3000
How about twin seeds? Seeds that you pop and have real twin plants happen... About 1;1200 to 1:1500, strain dependent.
This was relevant, thank you. 7%-24% is a huge spread, looks likes I have some hunting to look forward to.
 

GreenHighlander

Well-Known Member
Hi all,
So I am moving back to Canada soon, which means I can start growing again (on a larger and legal scale at that). To make the weed I grow marketable, it needs to have a high testable THC percentage (on top of looking and smelling amazing). I will be growing from seed, but my experience of growing many seeds of the same strain is limited.
How much does THC content typically vary between phenotypes of the same strain?
So for instance, if I am growing some headband or skywalker kush, how many seeds would I need to grow in order to find one with a THC percentage over 20%?
Any other advice on getting THC percentage up there would be appreciated. I know I need to add UV lights, any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Hilarious!!!

Cheers :)
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
johnnynice,

I wish you all the success in your endeavour. Definitely gonna be hard, especially from seed only, but i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. You may be searching for a needle in a hay stack, but if you have money, space and time you can afford to lose, then give em hell.

Best of luck.

To the thread,

I want to chime in a little in regards to GMO. Also i want to reserve my opinion on whether GMO is good or bad.
But reading a few pages in this thread, i can't help but feel the need to ask a few questions for my own understanding.
I'm a chucker, mostly outdoor grower and know a little, but always willing to learn more.
Argument is not what i'm after here, but information.

If we forget about other genetic characteristics for a second to simplify what i'm asking, it may be simpler for myself to explain the questions i have.

So......lets say we wanted female plants only in our seed? We can now make feminized seeds right.
For the sake of the question, assume females only is the main trait we're after.

Take Strain A, Strain B, and Strain C.
All three strains genetically very different, thousands and thousands of generations apart, and all three regular seed.
So we make a stable Feminized Strain A (FSA), Feminized Strain B (FSB) and Feminized Strain C (FSC).

Now let's say we like the growth structure of FSA, the potency of FSB, and the resistance to pests and disease of FSC.
We decide to crossbreed the three, and create a feminized hybrid.
We hit the jackpot and work this hybrid into a stable feminized strain.

Without the presence of any males, or hermaphrodites in our crops, at which point does our strain become GMO?
It would have to be considered GMO at some point, would it not?

Apologies to the OP, if this is off topic, just had to ask.
 

dstroy

Well-Known Member
johnnynice,

I wish you all the success in your endeavour. Definitely gonna be hard, especially from seed only, but i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. You may be searching for a needle in a hay stack, but if you have money, space and time you can afford to lose, then give em hell.

Best of luck.

To the thread,

I want to chime in a little in regards to GMO. Also i want to reserve my opinion on whether GMO is good or bad.
But reading a few pages in this thread, i can't help but feel the need to ask a few questions for my own understanding.
I'm a chucker, mostly outdoor grower and know a little, but always willing to learn more.
Argument is not what i'm after here, but information.

If we forget about other genetic characteristics for a second to simplify what i'm asking, it may be simpler for myself to explain the questions i have.

So......lets say we wanted female plants only in our seed? We can now make feminized seeds right.
For the sake of the question, assume females only is the main trait we're after.

Take Strain A, Strain B, and Strain C.
All three strains genetically very different, thousands and thousands of generations apart, and all three regular seed.
So we make a stable Feminized Strain A (FSA), Feminized Strain B (FSB) and Feminized Strain C (FSC).

Now let's say we like the growth structure of FSA, the potency of FSB, and the resistance to pests and disease of FSC.
We decide to crossbreed the three, and create a feminized hybrid.
We hit the jackpot and work this hybrid into a stable feminized strain.

Without the presence of any males, or hermaphrodites in our crops, at which point does our strain become GMO?
It would have to be considered GMO at some point, would it not?

Apologies to the OP, if this is off topic, just had to ask.
Cannabis is dioecious.

Mendel's laws of inheritance:

Law of segregation: During gamete formation, the alleles for each gene segregate from each other so that each gamete carries only one allele for each gene.
Law of independent assortment: Genes for different traits can segregate independently during the formation of gametes.
Law of dominance: Some alleles are dominant while others are recessive; an organism with at least one dominant allele will display the effect of the dominant allele

It is always a random half of genes, it does not matter the process we use to reverse plants. (Lamarckism hasn't been proven)

If you don't insert any foreign genes into the plant then it is not considered to be "engineered".

Simple selection is a form of genetic modification, we are artificially selecting for desirable traits. This is not the same as an engineered plant, but is still a modified plant.

Colloquially, the term GMO refers to transgenic plants or plants with qualities unattainable through traditional means of breeding and selection.

This is where a lot of people get confused. Your description fits.
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
Cannabis is dioecious.

Mendel's laws of inheritance:

Law of segregation: During gamete formation, the alleles for each gene segregate from each other so that each gamete carries only one allele for each gene.
Law of independent assortment: Genes for different traits can segregate independently during the formation of gametes.
Law of dominance: Some alleles are dominant while others are recessive; an organism with at least one dominant allele will display the effect of the dominant allele

It is always a random half of genes, it does not matter the process we use to reverse plants. (Lamarckism hasn't been proven)

If you don't insert any foreign genes into the plant then it is not considered to be "engineered".

Simple selection is a form of genetic modification, we are artificially selecting for desirable traits. This is not the same as an engineered plant, but is still a modified plant.

Colloquially, the term GMO refers to transgenic plants or plants with qualities unattainable through traditional means of breeding and selection.

This is where a lot of people get confused. Your description fits.
dstroy,

Thanks for the info, i'd like your comment if i could, but i can't yet.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, what i'm referring to is genetic engineering?
But if we were able to introduce genes from an entirely different plant in the Cannabaceae family, such as hops or hackberry, this would be considered genetic modification?
 

dstroy

Well-Known Member
dstroy,

Thanks for the info, i'd like your comment if i could, but i can't yet.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, what i'm referring to is genetic engineering?
But if we were able to introduce genes from an entirely different plant in the Cannabaceae family, such as hops or hackberry, this would be considered genetic modification?
Engineering is inserting genes, directly manipulating genes

Simple selection is selecting desirable traits, and breeding for those traits

Both genetic engineering and simple selection are forms of genetic modification

All that genetic modification means is that someone has intervened, and then you can break it down into how they intervened, by what process they achieved their result. Was it through a lab? Or was it through plant selection?
 

Aussieaceae

Well-Known Member
Engineering is inserting genes, directly manipulating genes

Simple selection is selecting desirable traits, and breeding for those traits

Both genetic engineering and simple selection are forms of genetic modification

All that genetic modification means is that someone has intervened, and then you can break it down into how they intervened, by what process they achieved their result. Was it through a lab? Or was it through plant selection?
Thanks dude I understand now. Makes sense. :bigjoint:
 

Khyber420

Well-Known Member
Colloquially, the term GMO refers to transgenic plants or plants with qualities unattainable through traditional means of breeding and selection.

This is where a lot of people get confused. Your description fits.
Agreed with everything you said except the "colloquially" part, your definition of GMO seems more colloquial vs scientific / regulatory consensus. But to each their own :bigjoint: to me (and the USDA) engineered and GMO are synonyms:

"However, the scientific community and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) use a stricter definition for a GMO: an animal or plant that has been created through genetic engineering [1]. "

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2015/how-to-make-a-gmo/

No need to continue the argument though, we'll just agree to disagree :)
 

dstroy

Well-Known Member
Agreed with everything you said except the "colloquially" part, your definition of GMO seems more colloquial vs scientific / regulatory consensus. But to each their own :bigjoint: to me (and the USDA) engineered and GMO are synonyms:

"However, the scientific community and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) use a stricter definition for a GMO: an animal or plant that has been created through genetic engineering [1]. "

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2015/how-to-make-a-gmo/

No need to continue the argument though, we'll just agree to disagree :)
Yeah, you’re not right. Agree to disagree is what people who can’t argue say.

Check your sources, and make sure you understand the topic.

According to the USDA’s Glossary of Agricultural Biotechnology Terms, a GMO is “an organism produced through genetic modification.”

Genetically modified organism (GMO): An organism produced through genetic modification.

https://www.usda.gov/topics/biotechnology/biotechnology-glossary

lol

The usda definitely agrees with me.
 

Booyah!

Well-Known Member
GMO regardless of whether or not you agree with the term Modification or not means changing the genetics at a genetic level in a lab (ie splicing) and not through selection.
 
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