No meduim Ebb and Flow/NFT questions...

[WillieP]

Flood and drain with out a medium is definitely a waste of nutrients and very inefficient. A better and efficient system would be to use some low pressure sprayers on a timer with the flood tables and covers.

RocketBoy,
I hear ya. I think if this was going to be a large system then the volume of liquid needed would be a concern, and it would be less in an aero system. But there will only be 4-5 gals required to flood, and all of that will be reused over and over till the reservoir needs changed.
Thanks for your input.
WillieP

 

[WillieP]

My biggest suggestion is if your running the KLX way best learn to aero clone. His system works because none of the plant is In contact with medium. If you try and clone in rockwool or into peat and then put it into a system similar to his you will kill your plants. I sat this as any medium you root your seeds into will hold substantially more moisture then roots in air. You will end up rotting your stem inside any medium just trying to keep the roots below moist. Ask me how I know this.

ToFar,
Good point on the aero cloning. I hadn't thought of that.
So I will be starting from seed...
Do I start a plant in ??? (whatever medium) and then clone it to be able to have medium-less clones??
Remember...complete NOOB here.
Thanks,
WillieP

 

[ToFarGone]

ToFar,
Good point on the aero cloning. I hadn't thought of that.
So I will be starting from seed...
Do I start a plant in ??? (whatever medium) and then clone it to be able to have medium-less clones??
Remember...complete NOOB here.
Thanks,
WillieP

That is pretty much exactly what I would recommend you do. you almost have to aero clone to get the roots to hang in air below the plant and into the bottom of the tray

 

[RocketBoy]

Or he has the benefit of a larger reserve and therefore less ph swings? And if he feels so inclined can use his nutrient solution longer as it will take longer for the plants to drink till there is a good elemental inbalance?

He’s talking about having x2 12gal res, 24 gallons or solution is a lot less then most RDWC guys run?

Sorry, I missed the part about the rez size. 24 gallons is a good acceptable size for a low-pro flood a drain, Usually I see people running with huge gallon reservoirs.

 

[Keesje]

Eh, you could -- but you're losing most of the benefits. The medium provides access to water between cycles

You can do more cycles perhaps.
There was a study (can't find it anymore) in which the researcher claims that more cycles give more fruits.
Will try to find it again.

as well as provides stability for the large plants that can be produced using this method.

For large plants, sure.
But if you do 16 or 25 per 4x4, you can support the plants by a net.

Not to mention you have to move a lot more water since there's no medium offsetting the volume. My 8 plant, 10 gallon setup would require 80 gallons per cycle vs the 15 gallons I move now.

Yes, with large plants you are right.
But with a tray of 4 x 4, 8 inches high, and with 25 plants in it, it would not make a huge difference.
25 x 3 inch netpots filled with clay pebbles is not that much volume.

Flood and drain with out a medium is definitely a waste of nutrients and very inefficient. A better and efficient system would be to use some low pressure sprayers on a timer with the flood tables and covers.

It is a different system, not better per se.
Ebb&flow is very easy to build. Cheap also.
Cleaning is very easy. Cleaning sprayers is a lot more work. They can also get clogged.
Perhaps you will spend more on nutrients, but your res will also stay stable for a longer time, just because of it's larger volume.
Every system has it's downsides and upsides

You will end up rotting your stem inside any medium just trying to keep the roots below moist. Ask me how I know this.

How do you know this?

 

[coreywebster]

Wouldn't having a hydroton medium automatically increase DO since there is a far larger area of nutrient film, more water surface to air surface contact.

 

[Keesje]

Perhaps, but it is irrelevant.
DO in the nutrient water is not that important.
It sounds strange but let me explain.
Roots can only absorb oxygen when they are wet.
So as long as your roots are just damp, they will absorb oxygen. Oxygen in gaseous state.
The oxygen reaches the film of water, becomes DO and then get absorbed by the roots.
There is far more oxygen in gaseous state surrounding the roots, then that there will ever be in water.
So in E&F the roots will first get some DO when the tray is flooded, and later, when the water leaves the tray, the roots will get oxygen in gaseous state (turning into DO the moment the oxygen touches the waterfilm)
With claypebbles you could have the advantage that the roots stay damp longer.

Think about this: Roots in a medium like soil do also not depend on DO in the nutrient water.
The roots are wet (even if it is just damp) and thus can absorb oxygen.
This oxygen will reach the roots slipping through all the tiny gaps in the soil.

With DWC of course there is no oxygen surrounding the roots, and then you need water with DO.

 

[SuperiorBuds]

You can do more cycles perhaps.
There was a study (can't find it anymore) in which the researcher claims that more cycles give more fruits.
Will try to find it again.

That is exactly why I flood and drain 24/7 and not a few times a day like most people. My siphon controls the drain cycle and quickly pulls fresh O2 into the root zone before the next cycle begins. The main ideas of my E&F come from the aquaponics folks where they have to maintain the nitrogen cycle to keep the fish alive. I ran a side by side of the two systems with clones about 5 years back and the difference in yield was substantial, so I've ran this way every since.

Yes, with large plants you are right.
But with a tray of 4 x 4, 8 inches high, and with 25 plants in it, it would not make a huge difference.
25 x 3 inch netpots filled with clay pebbles is not that much volume.

That makes a lot more sense. Basically running a sea of green setup with low profile ebb and flow. In that style I still would prob opt for RDWC over the added requirements of E&F, but that's the benefit of this plant -- it grows in many different ways and you can do what works for you.

However most of us still deal with plant count limits (I'm personally limited to 12 rec plants here in MI). I have a 3x3 area per plant, basically growing a single plant in the same space you're talking about putting 25. Totally different ideas of what we're looking for in the end, though.

 

[WillieP]

You can do more cycles perhaps.
There was a study (can't find it anymore) in which the researcher claims that more cycles give more fruits.
Will try to find it again.


For large plants, sure.
But if you do 16 or 25 per 4x4, you can support the plants by a net.


Yes, with large plants you are right.
But with a tray of 4 x 4, 8 inches high, and with 25 plants in it, it would not make a huge difference.
25 x 3 inch netpots filled with clay pebbles is not that much volume.


It is a different system, not better per se.
Ebb&flow is very easy to build. Cheap also.
Cleaning is very easy. Cleaning sprayers is a lot more work. They can also get clogged.
Perhaps you will spend more on nutrients, but your res will also stay stable for a longer time, just because of it's larger volume.
Every system has it's downsides and upsides


How do you know this?

Keesje,
Thanks for your input on the topic.
I would be interested in your opinion of what frequency you would advise trying if not using any medium?
WillieP

 

[Keesje]

I hate that I can't find that scientific paper anymore.
In this the scientist did tests and it looked like the more cycles one does, the more yield.

I look at it this way: A plant (the roots that is) needs water, nutrients and oxygen.
So as long as it gets it all these 3 things on a regular basis, it seems ok.
And if it is available most of the time, the roots can take it whenever they want.
If people say "3 times a day is the maximum" then I wonder why.
Because in the 7 hours the roots are dry, is there enough water and nutrients available to them?
Why not give them more? (I don't mean a higher EC, but more regular)
If they don't need it, they won't take it.
This is an opinion and not science. So don't take my word for it.

Edit: If you use rockwool or soil or cocos with E&F, then of course you need less cycles. Otherwise you will drown the roots.

But give it a try a few times with 1 x per hour.
And then when you got your room dialed in, you try another interval. Look what gives the best yield; the lowest cost, the least heat.

 

[WillieP]

I hate that I can't find that scientific paper anymore.
In this the scientist did tests and it looked like the more cycles one does, the more yield.

I look at it this way: A plant (the roots that is) needs water, nutrients and oxygen.
So as long as it gets it all these 3 things on a regular basis, it seems ok.
And if it is available most of the time, the roots can take it whenever they want.
If people say "3 times a day is the maximum" then I wonder why.
Because in the 7 hours the roots are dry, is there enough water and nutrients available to them?
Why not give them more? (I don't mean a higher EC, but more regular)
If they don't need it, they won't take it.
This is an opinion and not science. So don't take my word for it.

Edit: If you use rockwool or soil or cocos with E&F, then of course you need less cycles. Otherwise you will drown the roots.

But give it a try a few times with 1 x per hour.
And then when you got your room dialed in, you try another interval. Look what gives the best yield; the lowest cost, the least heat.

As I don’t have the system set up yet, there are some unknown variables. The size of the pump will determine how long it takes the tray to fill. The size of the tubing will determine the time it takes to drain.
I think once I see the system function I will have a better feel for timing.
I also plan on using a batting material on the bottom of the tray, I think that will help in moisture retention, and may also be a variable of the frequency of flood question.
Thanks for the solid advice.
Cheers.
WillieP

 

[myke]

is there a reason you dont want to use net pots?Many have used it with great succsess why try and change it?

 

[WillieP]

is there a reason you dont want to use net pots?Many have used it with great succsess why try and change it?

Myke,
The plan at the moment is to use small net pots to hold neoprene collars.
I think your asking, why am I choosing to not use a larger net pot filled with a medium?

I am not opposed to the traditional Ebb and Flow method at all. And there is nothing to say that I won't end up there at some point.
I do however like the simplicity of not having any medium to mess with, and if it is just as effective, I don't see a downside.
As I mentioned, I may end up with a fabric pot filled with hyrdoton setting in the bottom of the tray.
But on the first go, I like the uniqueness of KLX's system and plan on giving it a go.
I hope this answers your question.
Cheers,
WillieP

 

[ToFarGone]

The klx way is a very advanced way of growing. You constantly tow the line from drying your roots out and drowning them. Add to that the complexity of nutrients, additives, lighting, fans, environment and best of all pests you could be up shit creek before you know it.

I read an article about a true NFT system shouldn’t be used until years of experience being able to recogniZe the difference between under and over watered.

What I’m getting at is the kiss method has always held true in my life. after trying the klx way for 5 days I almost killed 25 clones trying to dial the system in. I loved the idea of no medium just the cost savings alone or time to clean hydroton however I Pulled them fast threw them in 6” rockwool in a top feed system. Absolutely love the simplicity and they are thriving

But hey If you have the time and money to continue to waste clones, nutes and a hydro bill monthly then hey giver a whirl I’d be happy to pull up a chair and enjoy the ride

Best of luck

 

[WillieP]

The klx way is a very advanced way of growing. You constantly tow the line from drying your roots out and drowning them. Add to that the complexity of nutrients, additives, lighting, fans, environment and best of all pests you could be up shit creek before you know it.

I read an article about a true NFT system shouldn’t be used until years of experience being able to recogniZe the difference between under and over watered.

What I’m getting at is the kiss method has always held true in my life. after trying the klx way for 5 days I almost killed 25 clones trying to dial the system in. I loved the idea of no medium just the cost savings alone or time to clean hydroton however I Pulled them fast threw them in 6” rockwool in a top feed system. Absolutely love the simplicity and they are thriving

But hey If you have the time and money to continue to waste clones, nutes and a hydro bill monthly then hey giver a whirl I’d be happy to pull up a chair and enjoy the ride

Best of luck

ToFar,
Thanks for the straight up honest opinion.
I understand that I could very well be setting myself up for a shit show...
But I would only be putting two clones at a time to a slow miserable death, not 25. LOL
If it is just to advanced for a NOOB like me, I will still stick with Ebb and Flow and just switch to using a medium, no harm, no foul.
I invite you along for the ride one way or the other.

Now that I think on it, I will have two trays, I could run one more traditionally, and one more KLXish. We'll see. I still have till January...

WillieP

 

[Keesje]

You constantly tow the line from drying your roots out and drowning them.

I read an article about a true NFT system shouldn’t be used until years of experience being able to recogniZe the difference between under and over watered.

The risk of drowning a plant is way bigger in soil, cocos or rockwool.
Because what we call 'drowning' or 'overwatering' is not giving the roots too much water, but blocking the roots from getting oxygen.
If in soil for example all the little gaps between the material are filled with water, there will be no more chance for the roots to get to the oxygen. The little DO that was in the water, is also already gone. So, no oxygen anymore.

Drowning a plant in a hydro system is possible, but way harder.
Look for example at the Kratky method: The roots are underwater 24/7 and still they are not 'drowning' or 'overwatered'.
Same in DWC.

Underwatering in E&F is possible. Especially if there is no medium to hold some water.
That's why I think one should always install some kind of back up.

One could run a pump every hour for 15 minutes for example on the power grid.
Another pump runs 15 minutes once per 24 hour. This pump is connected to a UPS with a battery large enough for at least 3 runs (= 3 days)
Roots can survive way longer without water as people think. Not that it is good for the roots or the plant, but they will survive.
This second pump is also the spare pump if pump nr. 1 should fall apart on a sunday when all the shops are closed.

@WillieP
Because your system is small, it would be cheap for you to install a spare pump that runs 15 minutes per 24 hours alongside the 15/45 pump.
You can add a UPS, but you could also put that one on the grid.
Only with a power failure they both would stop. Then a UPS is nice to have.

 

[WillieP]

@WillieP
Because your system is small, it would be cheap for you to install a spare pump that runs 15 minutes per 24 hours alongside the 15/45 pump.
You can add a UPS, but you could also put that one on the grid.
Only with a power failure they both would stop. Then a UPS is nice to have.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the power outage tip!

 

[Turpman]

It works fine media less. As long as your roots are hanging deep enough to get wet by the flood they will take off. I run a 2x4 table with 15 x 2" net cups. Measure how long to fill you table and use that for your flood. 1 flood per hr seems to work. I hate cleaning hydroton that's why I'm going media less. Only thing I do different is I use a control bucket and return pump cuz my res is higher then my table.
Not saying media less is the best but it works.
Roots at start.

shortly after.

last week. Opie C99
Oh and the ones in front and to the left were different clones. Just hole fillers.

 

[Keesje]

Not saying media less is the best but it works.

Sounds not too positive

Did you notice any disadvantages?
Like slower growth, less yield or something like that?

 

[WillieP]

It works fine media less. As long as your roots are hanging deep enough to get wet by the flood they will take off. I run a 2x4 table with 15 x 2" net cups. Measure how long to fill you table and use that for your flood. 1 flood per hr seems to work. I hate cleaning hydroton that's why I'm going media less. Only thing I do different is I use a control bucket and return pump cuz my res is higher then my table.
Not saying media less is the best but it works.View attachment 4413146
Roots at start.
View attachment 4413147
shortly after.
View attachment 4413148
last week. Opie C99
Oh and the ones in front and to the left were different clones. Just hole fillers.

Turpman,
Thanks for your input.
Have you been running this way long?
Have you seen any yield difference with or without medium?
And do you use any type of batting in the bottom of the tray?
Just trying to get a feel for it, not many people running this way.
Thanks again,
WillieP