So how do I know if I'm over defoliating ... Can defoliating cause hermaphroditism

[Airwalker16]

I know some peeps swear by defo for higher yields, but I can also appreciate the opposing viewpoint that you're just unnecessarily removing the plant's solar panels. I do a fair bit myself, but in my case it's always for the increased airflow - that comes with growing in a moldy basement though. Just recently relocated the tents to my bedroom, so we'll see how it goes... Maybe I'll do a side-by-side of my own sometime. Then again, after having lost (too much) bud to rot, maybe I'll just remain paranoid and play it safe. Yeah, that sounds better.

As for the issue of stress - I haven't noticed the defo markedly slowing development, but I haven't done any intentional, controlled studies either. It definitely makes sense to me that it would temporarily retard growth, so maybe just take it slowly. I typically do a few leaves here and there, many evenings in a row, rather than a sudden, extreme stripping. But other growers go extreme and are very happy with their results. I imagine one would want to know the strain quite well before getting heavy-handed with the snippers.

Solar panels. haha. more like nutrient storage facilities.
The budsites need direct light. Not the leaves.

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

Solar panels. haha. more like nutrient storage facilities.
The budsites need direct light. Not the leaves.

Then why do leaves bend towards and away from light?

 

[Kassiopeija]

Then why do leaves bend towards and away from light?

Well, my impression is that once buds have swollen and start ripening out Cannabis will discard its fanleaves and recycle them, esp. in an organic grow (in a mineralic high-fed one they are more keen to stay but may display all sorts of discolorizations instead...). well, at least, thats my experience

There's also a lot more going on with leaves that hang low/high, but that has something to do with the DLI, VPD, and the plants internal pressure/EC resulting from the osmotic pressure, transpirational pull and probably countless other stuff Im not even aware of.... LOL

edit:
@topic
defol after the stretch so direct light to the budsites isn't blocked by fanleaves.

BTW I don't believe that stress does induce hermie on cannabis(*). plants are generally very prone to destruction of over-the-soil biomatter - they get eaten regularily by herbivores. If the rootsystem stays intact & healthy most plants simply grow back with a vengeance.

I even think that training plants will harden them, even creating more resin or growth. That's, at least, where alot of manipulation techniques such as monstercropping, supercropping, backbuilding, UV, even water & light-deprivation (before harvest) seems to cash in on that.

However, most of these techniques need to be applied at the right time to a healthy plant or it can backfire!

edit:
(*) except for the fact that being non-pollenized late in flower is surely some form of unexpected stress itself... and a plant then going hermie just a very natural survival reaction (think of a seed carried onto an isolated island by birds) and its something that breeders actually try to sort out as good as they see fit.

Cannabis is able to form (selfed) seeds even without nanners...

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

Well, my impression is that once buds have swollen and start ripening out Cannabis will discard its fanleaves and recycle them, esp. in an organic grow (in a mineralic high-fed one they are more keen to stay but may display all sorts of discolorizations instead...). well, at least, thats my experience

There's also a lot more going on with leaves that hang low/high, but that has something to do with the DLI, VPD, and the plants internal pressure/EC resulting from the osmotic pressure, transpirational pull and probably countless other stuff Im not even aware of.... LOL

edit:
@topic
defol after the stretch so direct light to the budsites isn't blocked by fanleaves.

BTW I don't believe that stress does induce hermie on cannabis(*). plants are generally very prone to destruction of over-the-soil biomatter - they get eaten regularily by herbivores. If the rootsystem stays intact & healthy most plants simply grow back with a vengeance.

I even think that training plants will harden them, even creating more resin or growth. That's, at least, where alot of manipulation techniques such as monstercropping, supercropping, backbuilding, UV, even water & light-deprivation (before harvest) seems to cash in on that.

However, most of these techniques need to be applied at the right time to a healthy plant or it can backfire!

edit:
(*) except for the fact that being non-pollenized late in flower is surely some form of unexpected stress itself... and a plant then going hermie just a very natural survival reaction (think of a seed carried onto an isolated island by birds) and its something that breeders actually try to sort out as good as they see fit.

Cannabis is able to form (selfed) seeds even without nanners...

Are those seeds able to be grown out or better yet do they eliminate the male chromosome? I am a believer and I myself even defoliate. I wont snip once I hit around 3-4 weeks of flower. Mainly when the stretch is over. Just to open the sites up from midway and up. I know they store nutrients and also have a say with releasing vapor and so on....where does photosynthesis play its role?

 

[Airwalker16]

Are those seeds able to be grown out or better yet do they eliminate the male chromosome? I am a believer and I myself even defoliate. I wont snip once I hit around 3-4 weeks of flower. Mainly when the stretch is over. Just to open the sites up from midway and up. I know they store nutrients and also have a say with releasing vapor and so on....where does photosynthesis play its role?

Precisely. One week before flip, strip em. One week after flip, strip em, then on day 21 of flower, one more strip down. That's all ya gotta do.

 

[Airwalker16]

Then why do leaves bend towards and away from light?

Because the leaf itself wants to get BIGGER, Not the budsite.

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

Precisely. One week before flip, strip em. One week after flip, strip em, then on day 21 of flower, one more strip down. That's all ya gotta do.

That's pretty much what I do. Veg is a different game so cut away. In flower though I cut after the stretch and once again ( and it's VERY minimal ) about 1 week prior to harvest. Usually I don't need the final week defol though because I have her opened up nicely. I make butter etc so I don't lollipop so I can use all the underneath larf etc

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

Because the leaf itself wants to get BIGGER, Not the budsite.

This wasn't a smart ass question. Sorry if it came off that way. I was legit asking why they "pray" and so on.

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

I was always under the impression that each leaf stores nutrients and energy for each site that the leaf is with.

 

[Humple]

Solar panels. haha. more like nutrient storage facilities.
The budsites need direct light. Not the leaves.

Reference, perchance?

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

From what I was taught in grade school.....leaves take light energy and turn it into food for the plant. This process was called Photosynthesis. I guess things changed from 30 years ago?

 

[Kassiopeija]

I was always under the impression that each leaf stores nutrients and energy for each site that the leaf is with.

Well, the function of these fanleaves is to support the new shoot. just look at how cannabis grows, first it'll pull out a fanleaf, and if this gets much light itll grow strong - as will the shoot (observe: the shoot grows *above* the fanleaf, that's significant).

Also, if the shoot is strong and healthy many times its fanleave will start hanging low around. then, after the stretch, the plant has mostly transitioned into generative mode but fanleaves are actually a trademark of vegetative growth.

Then there's this ability of leaves storing sugars & minerals. However, acquisition of biomatter degrades after the transition from vegetative growth. Thus, Cannabis doesn't need that much storage anymore and because all leaves carry a high burden of waterloss (critical in nature) a plant may respond by getting rid of these leaves (esp. indoors)

Buds are mostly driven by the sugarleaves. If you look & compare the leafsurface-area between (a) initiating flower (b) end of flower you'll notice lesser surface towards the end. That, plus decreased lighttimes, is the reason why one needs more PPFD in flower than in veg.

You can read some of what I've written out of these charts:



Daily Light Integral

Are those seeds able to be grown out or better yet do they eliminate the male chromosome?

I'm not really deep into this breeder's knowledge but from what I could gather selfed plants are next to identical to the mother plant, except for mutations (a handful of these always occur, mere "translation" errors etc) but I've actually questioned myself that, too, if these seeds not suffer from inbred depression in the long run....

You can read more about it here:

Apomixis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamospermie (not available in english, run through google translator)

hope this helps
cheers

 

[TheSadVeryBadMadGrower]

Well, the function of these fanleaves is to support the new shoot. just look at how cannabis grows, first it'll pull out a fanleaf, and if this gets much light itll grow strong - as will the shoot (observe: the shoot grows *above* the fanleaf, that's significant).

Also, if the shoot is strong and healthy many times its fanleave will start hanging low around. then, after the stretch, the plant has mostly transitioned into generative mode but fanleaves are actually a trademark of vegetative growth.

Then there's this ability of leaves storing sugars & minerals. However, acquisition of biomatter degrades after the transition from vegetative growth. Thus, Cannabis doesn't need that much storage anymore and because all leaves carry a high burden of waterloss (critical in nature) a plant may respond by getting rid of these leaves (esp. indoors)

Buds are mostly driven by the sugarleaves. If you look & compare the leafsurface-area between (a) initiating flower (b) end of flower you'll notice lesser surface towards the end. That, plus decreased lighttimes, is the reason why one needs more PPFD in flower than in veg.

You can read some of what I've written out of these charts:

View attachment 4455239

Daily Light Integral
View attachment 4455240



I'm not really deep into this breeder's knowledge but from what I could gather selfed plants are next to identical to the mother plant, except for mutations (a handful of these always occur, mere "translation" errors etc) but I've actually questioned myself that, too, if these seeds not suffer from inbred depression in the long run....

You can read more about it here:

Apomixis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agamospermie (not available in english, run through google translator)

hope this helps
cheers

I am learning about mutations myself. I have a Blue Cookies triploid mother but her cuts come out perfectly fine.

 

[Airwalker16]

If this solar panel thing was true, when people strip their plants to bare twigs like the GML vid I've referenced, the are literally no fan leaves left. If what you're saying is true, they'd die, and stop growing. Period. But they don't. They all push out all new leaves and a week later you can't even tell it. was done.

 

[Airwalker16]

This video

 

[hillbill]

When I LST I end up trimming a lot of leaves throughout the grow just to bring light to individual buds. When I purposely defoliated Copper Chem, it made a huge amount of leaves in response. I have suspicions that low light can have some effect in making herms and many nanners appear on underside of buds.

 

[Airwalker16]

When I LST I end up trimming a lot of leaves throughout the grow just to bring light to individual buds. When I purposely defoliated Copper Chem, it made a huge amount of leaves in response. I have suspicions that low light can have some effect in making herms and many nanners appear on underside of buds.

I know for a fact low light levels cause herm issues. There's been nice harvests with great buds above the scrog net, perfectly flushed and done well, but underneath the net... Where it's literally ZER0 PpFd, the larf has seeds and nanners in abundance.
Yet the top is sensimilla.

 

[PJ Diaz]

I know for a fact low light levels cause herm issues. There's been nice harvests with great buds above the scrog net, perfectly flushed and done well, but underneath the net... Where it's literally ZER0 PpFd, the larf has seeds and nanners in abundance.
Yet the top is sensimilla.

Could you please cite a reference for this fact? I've personally never seen that situation.

 

[Airwalker16]

Could you please cite a reference for this fact? I've personally never seen that situation.

No online literature. Just personal experiences.

My 8-3590 cob diy.

With Rosin, you can go from larf to dabbable product in < 5 minutes.. fwiw. Bubblebag, while nice, is labor intensive, and is quite an all day project of setting up and cleaning up. Not to bag on bubble hash, it's lovely, but in this day of technology and communication, I think the verdict has...

www.rollitup.org

 

[PJ Diaz]

No online literature. Just personal experiences.

My 8-3590 cob diy.

With Rosin, you can go from larf to dabbable product in < 5 minutes.. fwiw. Bubblebag, while nice, is labor intensive, and is quite an all day project of setting up and cleaning up. Not to bag on bubble hash, it's lovely, but in this day of technology and communication, I think the verdict has...

www.rollitup.org

Sounds like confirmation bias to me.