Bernie isn’t expanding the electorate

TrippleDip

TrippleDip

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
Humans unfortunately are highly programmable
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Ah, the old "people can't be trusted to make their own decisions" arguement.. The technocrats should be allowed to govern, or rule over, the people. Don't you see a problem with this. Surely you believe that you can be trusted. Do you really think you're the 0.1%, above the plebians, or do you think that you're average and most people have similar abilities to reason and think?


hanimmal said:
it is about stopping massively coordinated propaganda machines with aims to destroy our democracies.
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What is msm? You don't see the coordinated attacks on our democracy from regulatory capture, from rent seeking organizations and unions? Democracy is founded on free speech and the marketplace of ideas. With no marketplace of ideas you have no democracy.


hanimmal said:
Also courts just ruled there isn't 1st amendment rights on the internet, it is in forum moderators hands if they allow the spreading of lies now.
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Just because it's legal to suppress speech doesn't make it right. Re lies: how about whistleblowers, are they spreading lies, or informing the public. If you claim that sex is biological are you spreading lies or truths? It seems that many people just want to ignore what they don't like and are unable to argue against.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
TrippleDip said:
Ah, the old "people can't be trusted to make their own decisions" arguement.. The technocrats should be allowed to govern, or rule over, the people. Don't you see a problem with this. Surely you believe that you can be trusted. Do you really think you're the 0.1%, above the plebians, or do you think that you're average and most people have similar abilities to reason and think?



What is msm? You don't see the coordinated attacks on our democracy from regulatory capture, from rent seeking organizations and unions? Democracy is founded on free speech and the marketplace of ideas. With no marketplace of ideas you have no democracy.



Just because it's legal to suppress speech doesn't make it right. Re lies: how about whistleblowers, are they spreading lies, or informing the public. If you claim that sex is biological are you spreading lies or truths? It seems that many people just want to ignore what they don't like and are unable to argue against.
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the jews who got holocausted didn’t compete well enough in marketplace of ideas!

Gender is a social construct and there are more than two biological sexes, btw
 
TrippleDip

TrippleDip

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
the jews who got holocausted didn’t compete well enough in marketplace of ideas!

Gender is a social construct and there are more than two biological sexes, btw
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care to lay out a well reasoned line of thought to back up your statements?
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
TrippleDip said:
Ah, the old "people can't be trusted to make their own decisions" arguement.. The technocrats should be allowed to govern, or rule over, the people. Don't you see a problem with this. Surely you believe that you can be trusted. Do you really think you're the 0.1%, above the plebians, or do you think that you're average and most people have similar abilities to reason and think?
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No, it is the 'Militaries should not be able to commit social warfare online' argument.

Oh, and I know I can't trust everything that I think when wading into this online realm. It is very hard not to fall for some of the disinformation and propaganda from time to time. Luckily this site is really helpful in keeping everything mostly straight.
TrippleDip said:
What is msm? You don't see the coordinated attacks on our democracy from regulatory capture, from rent seeking organizations and unions? Democracy is founded on free speech and the marketplace of ideas. With no marketplace of ideas you have no democracy.
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There are laws that the actual news companies have to follow or they are open to lawsuits. The Russian Military and their shell organizations like OANN are not. This isn't a marketplace, it is the wild west.

TrippleDip said:
Just because it's legal to suppress speech doesn't make it right. Re lies: how about whistleblowers, are they spreading lies, or informing the public. If you claim that sex is biological are you spreading lies or truths? It seems that many people just want to ignore what they don't like and are unable to argue against.
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Whistleblowers handing their shit off to the agencies that they are legally protected are one thing. Whistleblowers stealing NSA data and smuggling it to the Russians to turn around and use against American citizens is not the same by a mile.
 
TrippleDip

TrippleDip

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
No, it is the 'Militaries should not be able to commit social warfare online' argument.
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So only PACs and other NGOs? Foreign multi billionaires like Soros? What specifically makes them different, what makes the military arguments so convincing that people can't think past it? I get the don't spend state money on propaganda, but what do you think of the state money being spent on propaganda regarding corona virus (yes it is propaganda because they seek to convince people of their position)


hanimmal said:
There are laws that the actual news companies have to follow or they are open to lawsuits. The Russian Military and their shell organizations like OANN are not. This isn't a marketplace, it is the wild west.
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You just said that the law isn't applicable online. Also most organizations aren't open to lawsuits. Look at the facebook social manipulation thing where they tried to manipulate people into being happier without their consent. You still haven't convinced me that russian posts are any better or worse than posts by homegrown PACs.


hanimmal said:
Whistleblowers handing their shit off to the agencies that they are legally protected are one thing. Whistleblowers stealing NSA data and smuggling it to the Russians to turn around and use against American citizens is not the same by a mile.
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Trying to figure out how you have this all squared away on your mind. So doctor li, who warned of coronavirus, is he an enemy of the state or not? What about the people that warned of the pakistani-muslim grooming gangs that abused thousands of girls in the uk? Both of these people were demonised by the state, do you agree with the state's position?
 
Jestocost

Jestocost

Member
hanimmal said:
Same, I would love to have $1500 wiped off my monthly bills that go out in the form of paying back student loans, but like you said, after seeing Obama's presidency basically halted for trying to bring health insurance coverage to 100% of the population, a fight that is still going on today 9 years later I am not willing to bet 4 more years of Trump with my voting for what is very very likely empty promises.
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No one has an issue with 100% coverage. No one.

But copying inefficient foreign systems, or asking 40% of the population to pay for 100% of healthcare costs, isn't a step forward.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Jestocost said:
No one has an issue with 100% coverage. No one.

But copying inefficient foreign systems, or asking 40% of the population to pay for 100% of healthcare costs, isn't a step forward.
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Biden 2020.

Cover 100% of American Citizens with affordable insurance so they don't have those catastrophic illnesses and let's move onto the next major issues. I am not in favor of scrapping the progress that was made when Obama got us up to 92% covered.

TrippleDip said:
So only PACs and other NGOs? Foreign multi billionaires like Soros? What specifically makes them different, what makes the military arguments so convincing that people can't think past it? I get the don't spend state money on propaganda, but what do you think of the state money being spent on propaganda regarding corona virus (yes it is propaganda because they seek to convince people of their position)
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Nope I think it all needs to be stopped, militarizing data against people is wrong and too powerful of a weapon. If entities are being found to be doing this, they should be held accountable.

TrippleDip said:
You just said that the law isn't applicable online. Also most organizations aren't open to lawsuits. Look at the facebook social manipulation thing where they tried to manipulate people into being happier without their consent. You still haven't convinced me that russian posts are any better or worse than posts by homegrown PACs.
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Facebook isn't a 'news' company. Even Hannity had to argue in a court of law that his show is entertainment so he is allowed to lie on it since it is not news.

I am not trying to convince you of them being much different, only that the Russians got caught because Trump is an idiot and Don Jr "Loved it".

TrippleDip said:
Trying to figure out how you have this all squared away on your mind. So doctor li, who warned of coronavirus, is he an enemy of the state or not? What about the people that warned of the pakistani-muslim grooming gangs that abused thousands of girls in the uk? Both of these people were demonised by the state, do you agree with the state's position?
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I dont rely on 'having it squared away', the thing about facts are they are stubborn. I really don't know what to think about the virus stuff. I am weary of anything we are hearing because Trump has proven he has his minions lie to us, and it is too early to know what is true or not. Luckily I am married to a pharmacist so until she tells me to worry I am able to repress my wanting to panic about it. As for the other thing you mentioned I have no knowledge of it so don't have an opinion other than abuse is bad.
 
Jestocost

Jestocost

Member
UncleBuck said:
hes so far gone he thinks you need an ID to buy cereal
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If he's who the Democrats run for President, the debates are going to be a slaughter.

Like Trump or not, he's figured the publicity aspect of running for President better than any modern candidate. Biden is going to be beat to Hell.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Jestocost said:
If he's who the Democrats run for President, the debates are going to be a slaughter.

Like Trump or not, he's figured the publicity aspect of running for President better than any modern candidate. Biden is going to be beat to Hell.
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Whoever ended up running against Trump was always going to be beat to hell, Trump has proven himself to be willing to lie cheat and steal to get anything he wants, a second term so he doesn't have to spend time in the pokey being very high up on his list of things he wants will be no exception.

Fortunately for Joe, Trump now has a record in public office, which he didn't in 2016, and he (or whoever it ends up being running against Trump) will get to show it to America again and again.

And you are right, Trump has used the taxpayer dime for his personal gain to great effect.
 
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