More THC testing – UVA vs UVB vs near-UV

[Bignutes]

It's an interesting concept and you could be on to something. The only doubt in my mind would be that HIDs (especially metal halide) also throw out a small amount of UVB throughout the cycle which doesn't seem to affect flowering times. The other consideration is that when I spoke to the grower he said he looked at the triches under a loupe prior to harvest and they were mostly milky turning amber. I would expect clear trichomes to have higher levels of CBG, but not mature trichomes. However, I've never tested the theory.

This is the trouble with cannabis being illegal for so long: there are so many "wives tales" and so little scientific information, as GLA has already mentioned, that it's hard to know what's real and what's not.

The Uvb "testing" had elevated levels of thc and with that goes cbg, maybe more of both regardless of stage in late flower, kinda like taking the original thc/cbg curve and bumping it up. What would be interesting is figuring out the ratio of cbg to thc for non uvb versus uvb. Is it higher in both percentages by the same rate or is cbg taking more of the ratio? That would tell us something I think.

 

[ANC]

As a company, I would not only have to agree, but also point out that what you're suggesting is what we have been trying to achieve all along by providing a balanced spectrum with few trade-offs in terms of yield, essential oil production, efficiency and longevity. There is also usability and cost, which is the reason for putting the entire spectrum on one channel (no extra drivers or supplemental spectra needed), as well as the focus on producing a dedicated flowering board as that is the aim of nearly all cannabis growers.

Regardless of the above, there are already manufacturers producing supplemental lighting products so there is no shortage of options for people to try. It is not our place to knock other manufacturers or their work. We're just trying to make the best all-round flowering lights we can.

I also focus on producing the most photons at the lowest cost for my users.
If they want something fancy it can be done, but the basics dos 95% off what I need it to anyway

 

[Prawn Connery]

If my understanding is correct, then CBGa is the first precursor that is converted into all other cannabinoids (many via their own acidic precursors, such as THCa and CBDa) and including CBG. So what we're really looking at is a high level of CBGa in the UVB sample that has not been converted, but it is not an overly high amount. The other samples have around 1% CGBa vs 2% CBGa in the UVB sample.

What is different is the UVB sample is converting more of its CBGa into CBG rather than into THCa and CBDa.

So in fact, I believe @Grow Lights Australia was correct when he first stated the UVB sample had converted more CBGa into CBG than THCa.

Isn't CBG th precursor to other cannabinoids (CBD, CBN and THC)? Perhaps the high CBG samples were harvested prematurely and if left to go longer, more of the CBG would have been converted

This is not correct. CBGa is the precursor to all of them, including CBG. CBG is not a precursor to THCa or CBDa: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cannabigerol

Unless you can find another scientific article that contradicts this one.

 

[Prawn Connery]

I also focus on producing the most photons at the lowest cost for my users.
If they want something fancy it can be done, but the basics dos 95% off what I need it to anyway

While no-one denies photons > spectrum, it is the spectrum that is responsible for photomorphogenic response in plants that determines how they grow, as well as how they photosynthesise. All things being equal, efficiency comes first, but if you can have efficiency as well as encourage correct growth, it can have a compounding effect on efficiency.

Cost is another factor altogether and while again, no-one denies bang-for-buck drives the market, the cost of LEDs compared to what cannabis sells for even in legal markets makes it worth pursuing the best of both words (efficiency and spectrum) ahead of cost (to a point), IMO. It is horses for courses, but if we didn't have high-end manufacturers setting the bar (think BMW/Mercedes/Porsche etc), then the low-end manufacturers wouldn't be along for the ride (think Hyundai, Kia etc). The economical cars of today are far more luxurious than even the luxury cars of yesteryear . . . but those luxury cars had to come first. It's how we got multi-valve engines and auto transmissions. You get the idea and I'm going off on a tangent

 

[Prawn Connery]

Yeah I know the model T made cars accessible to the masses, but mass production was an innovation in and of itself. And Benz is still around and still innovating. Fuckin tangents.

 

[Bignutes]

If my understanding is correct, then CBGa is the first precursor that is converted into all other cannabinoids (many via their own acidic precursors, such as THCa and CBDa) and including CBG. So what we're really looking at is a high level of CBGa in the UVB sample that has not been converted, but it is not an overly high amount. The other samples have around 1% CGBa vs 2% CBGa in the UVB sample.

What is different is the UVB sample is converting more of its CBGa into CBG rather than into THCa and CBDa.

So in fact, I believe @Grow Lights Australia was correct when he first stated the UVB sample had converted more CBGa into CBG than THCa.


This is not correct. CBGa is the precursor to all of them, including CBG. CBG is not a precursor to THCa or CBDa: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cannabigerol

Unless you can find another scientific article that contradicts this one.

I wonder if the cure process is heavily dependent on cbg breaking down. The old adage that a good cure counts for 50% of the quality. My reason for this is cbg boiling point is at 52C and like a pot of water at 60C it evaporates faster than a pot of water at 21C. cbga is converted by the plant into thca, cbda, cbga and all these degrade to non acidic form with cbg degrading quickest. Maybe the reason for burping or offgassing jars, or getting rid of the cbg gas. This might also explain weed getting stronger with a good cure, cbga converting to cbda or thca. Just a theory.

 

[hybridway2]

Wow! Good discussion!

 

[Bignutes]

Yeah I know the model T made cars accessible to the masses, but mass production was an innovation in and of itself. And Benz is still around and still innovating. Fuckin tangents.

A long removed relative of mine William Crapo Durant started Chevrolet GM and Frigidaire. Chevrolet was started to compete with the model t, ended up a popper with the stock market crash he lost it all.

 

[Grow Lights Australia]

If my understanding is correct, then CBGa is the first precursor that is converted into all other cannabinoids (many via their own acidic precursors, such as THCa and CBDa) and including CBG. So what we're really looking at is a high level of CBGa in the UVB sample that has not been converted, but it is not an overly high amount. The other samples have around 1% CGBa vs 2% CBGa in the UVB sample.

What is different is the UVB sample is converting more of its CBGa into CBG rather than into THCa and CBDa.

So in fact, I believe @Grow Lights Australia was correct when he first stated the UVB sample had converted more CBGa into CBG than THCa.


This is not correct. CBGa is the precursor to all of them, including CBG. CBG is not a precursor to THCa or CBDa: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cannabigerol

Unless you can find another scientific article that contradicts this one.

OK. I should have listened to you then. LOL! There seems to be some confusion between CBGa and CBG but I'm glad I had it right to begin with.

I found this when I went looking

Cannabinoids | Trichome Analytical

Hold Your Testing to a Higher Standard

trichomeanalytical.com

CBGA
Cannabigerolic Acid

CBGA is considered the mother of all cannabinoids. Through a process called biosynthesis, cannabis plants produce CBGA. As the cannabis plant matures, CBGA will be exposed to three different enzymes, each of which converts the compound into either THCA, CBDA, or CBCA. When harvested cannabis is heated, any remaining CBGA will decarboxylate into CBG. It's thanks to this unique cannabinoid that all other medicinal benefits in cannabis are possible. In addition, CBGA has shown analgesic, antibacterial, anti-inflammatory, and anti-proliferative properties.

If I read this right the enzymes turn CBGa into the precursors THCa, CBDa and CBCa, which in turn decarboxylate into d9THC, CBC, and CBC. CBN comes from oxidised d9THC.

Looking at the way CBGa is decarboxylated into CBG it may be as simple as the UVB in the test sample doing just this: it is decarboxylating the CBGa before the other enzymes have time to convert it into THCa, CBDa and CBCa. This theory makes the most sense to me, as UVB is very strong and may have the same effect as heating, or decarboxylating. I am sure UVB increases leaf (and flower) temperatures so perhaps we are finally on to something!

 

[Grow Lights Australia]

Yeah I know the model T made cars accessible to the masses, but mass production was an innovation in and of itself. And Benz is still around and still innovating. Fuckin tangents.

I think you mean "fucking analogies"

 

[ANC]

While no-one denies photons > spectrum, it is the spectrum that is responsible for photomorphogenic response in plants that determines how they grow, as well as how they photosynthesise. All things being equal, efficiency comes first, but if you can have efficiency as well as encourage correct growth, it can have a compounding effect on efficiency.

Cost is another factor altogether and while again, no-one denies bang-for-buck drives the market, the cost of LEDs compared to what cannabis sells for even in legal markets makes it worth pursuing the best of both words (efficiency and spectrum) ahead of cost (to a point), IMO. It is horses for courses, but if we didn't have high-end manufacturers setting the bar (think BMW/Mercedes/Porsche etc), then the low-end manufacturers wouldn't be along for the ride (think Hyundai, Kia etc). The economical cars of today are far more luxurious than even the luxury cars of yesteryear . . . but those luxury cars had to come first. It's how we got multi-valve engines and auto transmissions. You get the idea and I'm going off on a tangent

I agree, but in nature, few plants have EVERYTHING 100% perfect... no one comes around to make sure that the soil has just the right nutrients or that some tree doesn't grow where it steals a few hours of daylight. What you are aiming for is noble, but hopefully, the actual cost of what you say isn't doubling the cost per foot light up a place..

My 550 uses 5 x 288 LM561C on an HLG480 and sells for well under$500, this leaves shitload of money for people to get their own dedicated standalone supplementary strips and stuff....

Paying double for the HLG version does not net you double yields. In fact, I still insist because my unit spreads the diodes more evenly over the canopy and uses 25% more diodes, while costing half, it is a better light hands down.

 

[Prawn Connery]

I agree, but in nature, few plants have EVERYTHING 100% perfect... no one comes around to make sure that the soil has just the right nutrients or that some tree doesn't grow where it steals a few hours of daylight. What you are aiming for is noble, but hopefully, the actual cost of what you say isn't doubling the cost per foot light up a place..

My 550 uses 5 x 288 LM561C on an HLG480 and sells for well under$500, this leaves shitload of money for people to get their own dedicated standalone supplementary strips and stuff....

Paying double for the HLG version does not net you double yields. In fact, I still insist because my unit spreads the diodes more evenly over the canopy and uses 25% more diodes, while costing half, it is a better light hands down.

You're right. If anything, indoor growing teaches you just how adaptable plants are. I still use a 2'x2' F-Series strip-frame build in my veg tent because it just works – there's really no need to get rid of it. But – and take this with a pinch of salt – when it comes to flowering, we're seeing High Lights beat the Samsung-based boards both in terms of yield and quality, so I won't be going back to LM561Cs any time soon. To me it would be a bit like going back to HPS (not really, but it would still be retrograde).

Of course, you would expect me to say that. But here in Australia you can buy two 450W High Light kits with heatsinks and drivers for the price of one HLG-550 and not only get much better coverage, but up to 900W with arguably a better spectrum, better quality board and guaranteed better yields (by virtue of the fact they put out almost twice as much light over a greater area). So it's really not that much of a stretch.

 

[Prawn Connery]

I think you mean "fucking analogies"

Smarty pants!

 

[ANC]

You're right. If anything, indoor growing teaches you just how adaptable plants are. I still use a 2'x2' F-Series strip-frame build in my veg tent because it just works – there's really no need to get rid of it. But – and take this with a pinch of salt – when it comes to flowering, we're seeing High Lights beat the Samsung-based boards both in terms of yield and quality, so I won't be going back to LM561Cs any time soon. To me it would be a bit like going back to HPS (not really, but it would still be retrograde).

Of course, you would expect me to say that. But here in Australia you can buy two 450W High Light kits with heatsinks and drivers for the price of one HLG-550 and not only get much better coverage, but up to 900W with arguably a better spectrum, better quality board and guaranteed better yields (by virtue of the fact they put out almost twice as much light over a greater area). So it's really not that much of a stretch.

Maybe you can pass me a few component recipes to try on my more demanding customers...

 

[Prawn Connery]

If you're talking High Lights (spam alert!), then 2 UV boards and a 320 driver hits the sweet spot, IMO. I run 4 of them off a maxed out HLG320H-48A pulling 360-370W from the wall. That drives each board at about 85W for about 2.4-2.5 umol/l and gives side-to-side light in a 4x2. If you're talking strips it seems hard to beat the Bridgelux CRI90s if you can find them. I like CRI90, it has a good spread of light.

This is what happens in my tent. I have six plants on rotation and I'm pulling an average 5oz per plant of different types. Some hazes go for 12+ weeks and the earliest indicas can be ready in seven. These have just come through a very hot summer with temps up to 40C+






And here's the other side

 

[ANC]

Send me a link to where you got those please

 

[Barristan Whitebeard]

Send me a link to where you got those please

Hey @ANC ,
Are you asking about the High Light UV boards or the Buddies stuck to the side of Prawn Connery's tent?

Full Spectrum LED Grow Lights - Grow Lights Australia

True full-spectrum LED grow lights. Made in Australia with added UV and Far Red. Proven yields, quality and efficiency. Beats HPS, CMH, Quantum Boards.

growlightsaustralia.com

This is the website for the High Light boards.

@Grow Lights Australia has said that as soon as Teknik releases the Buddies to the public, they will be stocked on the Grow Lights Australia website.

 

[ToneOZ]

We do have spectrographs of the CMH on its own and mixed with the High Red boards.

CMH (2x 315W)
View attachment 4530265

CMH + High Red @ 5:2 ratio (630W of CMH, 240W of LED)
View attachment 4530267

These CMH lamps have a very good spectrum already and are proven performers, but the High Lights do add a bit more red and also fill in the gaps. The grower says he has had better results since adding LED to his grows.

On the subject of further tests, we do have those areas covered – but thanks for offering. The grower above has just bought four High Light UV boards with heatsinks and two 320 drivers to run in another tent, so it should be a fairly even test if we can get him to run just 630W of CMH and 640W of LED. We will definitely be able to see the difference between CMH and near-UV grown under the same conditions. That will be the real acid test for us, as CMH seems to be the industry standard when it comes to cannabinoid and terpene production. That's what the CMH guys keep telling us

Have you done any cannabinoid testing in your grows? If so, have you seen much of a difference in your grows since using LED?

MH user over here. Tried and true smells and stickyness!

 

[FADING-SILHOUETTE]

Cool set-up mate. It's a bit ghetto but I like it

What's the circular LED fixture in the middle with the white mid-powers and red, blue and far red monos under a heatsink?

Hi Prawn...yeah I like cobs they are easier to move and angle in a tightish space.. The light in the center is a 105w OpticLED Phantom XL Dimmable..(my latest addition) its ppft is higher when you remove the clear cover, but its great regardless ..but for me it keeps the leds clean and isnt nessesay at the moment... -STELTHY

 

[FADING-SILHOUETTE]

Hey @ANC ,
Are you asking about the High Light UV boards or the Buddies stuck to the side of Prawn Connery's tent?

Full Spectrum LED Grow Lights - Grow Lights Australia

True full-spectrum LED grow lights. Made in Australia with added UV and Far Red. Proven yields, quality and efficiency. Beats HPS, CMH, Quantum Boards.

growlightsaustralia.com

This is the website for the High Light boards.

@Grow Lights Australia has said that as soon as Teknik releases the Buddies to the public, they will be stocked on the Grow Lights Australia website.

I am interested in the ones around the sides....?? - STELTHY