Lockdowns work.

[abandonconflict]

It's not a matter of being fair, Cuomo was saying exactly the wrong things in early March and his health department were telling him so. Seattle and Washington's political leaders had the humility to step back and let the scientists lead. Cuomo and DeBlasio did the opposite and so were the results.

I agree. New York is almost at herd immunity despite the lockdowns.

Cuomo Says 21% of Those Tested in N.Y.C. Had Virus Antibodies (Published 2020)

The preliminary data suggests that many more New Yorkers may have been infected than was previously believed.

www.nytimes.com

Cuomo Says 21% of Those Tested in N.Y.C. Had Virus Antibodies

WOW, that's more than 1 out of every 5 from samples taken two weeks ago. With an eight day doubling rate, let's see...

 

[Kassiopeija]

600K die every year from heart disease. We never used draconian measures to shut down soda companies, fast food companies, regulation of sugar, salt, fat, meat, etc. Why not? I mean, 600,000 people a year? Shouldn't we freak out and literally change our way of life over these numbers? Most of those are older people. If we don't shut down all of the fast food and soda companies, aren't we responsible for all of those deaths?

Aren't people free to buy and eat what they want? If yes - then it's their responsibility.... but with a virus it's completely different, how much of a conscious choice do you have?

30,000 people died in car accidents in 2018. Another 3 million were hospitalized or disabled. I've thought about those numbers, and I've decided that I would rather drive and risk the potential death/injury. I'm sure you have too.

Dosn't the knowledge of the risks of driving influence you a little into the direction of driving more precautious? And also you actually see what's going on and you have very much control over the flow of action, that's why I'm more afraid of flying than driving a car although statistically unwarranted.

The curve that the lockdowns were meant to flatten was always cases per day.

Exactly and this is why I posted some examples of them occasionally and there are alot of flattening curves right now, unfortunately not all of them.
Especially the USA is currently chaotically undecisive....
These are simply drawn from Google and fed by the numbers of Wikipedia which are from the WHO. Those are freely available, for all countries, the USA even split, and you can pick linear or log and ofc on all entries such as total cases, active cases, recovered, death, critical and so on and so forth. You have total control of the way the data is presented to you - but you don't set these rules, because this is not up to debate. It's one huge pool of split data... which can be displayed in different ways... in order to derive different information out of it.... to use for future anticipation... to be able to better save lifes.
You cannot simply ignore one way the data is being shown because it doesn't suit your opinion(s). If the data is faulty then maybe the the data out there is faulty and maybe everything is distorted. And maybe it is to some extend... but realistically that's the data we have and we do see alot of trends that are inline with a changed behaviour of people in said nations.

 

[abandonconflict]

You cannot simply ignore one way the data is being shown because it doesn't suit your opinion(s).

That's not at all what I have done. I made a very straightforward argument. Lockdowns did not sufficiently flatten the curve such that the apex was below the baseline of healthcare capacity and in almost all cases this is correct. Healthcare capacity is a finite number of lives which can be saved once those cases are critical. Beyond that, the curve apex is protruding above that line. The argument from the beginning was "flatten the curve".

Remember "flatten the curve". Because that was always the argument and it's the one to which my argument is a rebuttal. You have acknowledged this. You have also just proceeded to acknowledge what this argument meant. It meant: number of new cases per day graphed logarithmically. That IS the curve in the argument made by those in many countries and in the world's top academic and scientific institutions and in international bodies. There was always a very strong consensus about it. Lockdowns to flatten the curve and keep the total number of cases below the threshold of healthcare capacity until there is a vaccine. This was not my idea. This was not my opinion. This was not the way I chose to present the data, ignoring other data sets. That was the argument from Fauci, the WHO, the CDC, the NIH, and even in China and all over Europe. Flatten the curve. We are talking about a certain curve.

My argument is that the curve, while it was very slightly affected by those lockdowns, did not sufficiently flatten to avoid the overcrowding of ICU wards in the healthcare systems. That argument is strong enough to stand without the following premises supporting it, although they do.

Whether you want to continue to include the other premises in this argument or not, I will list them. 1) Countries which did not implement lockdowns have flattening curves. 2) The lockdowns are causing a global famine and the worst recession in a century. 3) Social distancing does not require government force. 4) Many countries are apparently very close to approaching the first stages of herd immunity. 5) There is no direct evidence that the curves have been affected by lockdowns (although I am willing to accept that they may have, because logic would dictate).

 

[Kassiopeija]

So, the Philippines has a low (reported) rate of deaths due to this disease. Do you think the numbers coming from the Phillippine government reflect what's actually happening?

is it true that Duterte ordered the shooting of lockdown-ignorers and it actually already happened? I wonder why they do this... it's such a young society ~23 years arithm. middle.

 

[Rob Roy]

Did 5000 people per day ever die from the flu or car accidents?

thanks, trumptard

About 15,000 Jews were killed per day in death camps in the fall of 1942. It's hard to lay the blame for that on just one kind of government malfeasance, so I'll put it under the general category of government caused democide

Could probably make a case that much of it was fiat money and government schools related, but I'll save that for another time.

Thanks government.

 

[Kassiopeija]

That's not at all what I have done. I made a very straightforward argument. Lockdowns did not sufficiently flatten the curve such that the apex was below the baseline of healthcare capacity and in almost all cases this is correct. Healthcare capacity is a finite number of lives which can be saved once those cases are critical. Beyond that, the curve apex is protruding above that line. The argument from the beginning was "flatten the curve".

Remember "flatten the curve". Because that was always the argument and it's the one to which my argument is a rebuttal. You have acknowledged this. You have also just proceeded to acknowledge what this argument meant. It meant: number of new cases per day graphed logarithmically. That IS the curve in the argument made by those in many countries and in the world's top academic and scientific institutions and in international bodies. There was always a very strong consensus about it. Lockdowns to flatten the curve and keep the total number of cases below the threshold of healthcare capacity until there is a vaccine. This was not my idea. This was not my opinion. This was not the way I chose to present the data, ignoring other data sets. That was the argument from Fauci, the WHO, the CDC, the NIH, and even in China and all over Europe. Flatten the curve. We are talking about a certain curve.

maybe then we are looking at different data or just at different select pieces of the data and honestly, I haven't observed the development of each individual US nation day by day, more EU...

My argument is that the curve, while it was affected by those lockdowns, did not sufficiently flatten to avoid the overcrowding of ICU wards in the healthcare systems. That argument is strong enough to stand without the following premises supporting it, although they do.

then these countries need to take additional measures in order to further combat the spread until the daily log scale of new cases is declining. And once this is arrived then it's time to begin to release some counter-measures, not before. Seriously the things I'm seeing from Singapur etc makes me envy, I'd happily trade that for a lockdown, but what do I know if a city model is even applicable for a whole land...?

Whether you want to continue to include the other premises in this argument or not, I will list them. 1) Countries which did not implement lockdowns have flattening curves. 2) The lockdowns are causing a global famine and the worst recession in a century. 3) Social distancing does not require government force. 4) Many countries are apparently very close to approaching the first stages of herd immunity.

there's always different ways to predict the future & value the current situation. For example the greens say global warming is going to make the earth uninhabitable this millenia for 100.000-500.000 years after a huge global mass extinction of species. The scientific evidence is there, plus it's every-mounting and it speaks of certain break-points after wich there is no return of events.

And then you look at the responsible factors and you see the industrialized nations with their capitalistic industry massproducing planned obsolescence crap simply with the intent to increase the numbers. So that a few select can become godly rich/powerful; and then most of them isn't even individual people but corporations that can basically change their staff like they want, and so do the interests of that complex.

Since the lockdown has a profound effect on the speed with which a society could develop as a whole we can already observe a trend in several other graphs which show a relieve to the earth's eco-system in general. Some people argue that if simply "de-speeding" mankind - humans may be better off in the long run. The economy would have to adapt and yes, it means individuals would have lesser goods at their disposal, less production, less waste, less resources used.

Anoxic event - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kassiopeija]

About 15,000 Jews were killed per day in death camps in the fall of 1942. It's hard to lay the blame for that on just one kind of government malfeasance,

The Nazi's were responsible for that, it was under their control and it was their decision. That was responsiblity means, at least, if you're a human and reckon free will.

 

[Rob Roy]

The Nazi's were responsible for that, it was under their control and it was their decision. That was responsiblity means, at least, if you're a human and reckon free will.

Stanley Milgram, a well known Social Psychologist, did some tests on how people respond to directives (obey) from perceived authorities. It was frightening the high percentage of people who distance their own personal responsibility from something when an "authority figure" tells them what to do.

In the case of World War II atrocities to Jews, the authority training which allowed the atrocities, can be traced to Kaiser Wilhelm and his public schools training programs (indoctrination, obedience training). He didn't want thinkers, he wanted obedient soldiers and workers.

That same "education" model was brought to the USA in the mid 1800s and is still used today. It replaced critical thinking with obedience to authority (by intentional design) and is directly or indirectly responsible for much of the fuckery going on today. Boot licking people here won't touch that argument, which is pretty funny and sort of proves my point.

 

[abandonconflict]

Since the lockdown has a profound effect on the speed with which a society could develop as a whole we can already observe a trend in several other graphs which show a relieve to the earth's eco-system in general.

This is a double edged sword. Poachers are apparently operating unopposed.

In general I would say you have overlooked the core of my argument while making a lot of effort to respond.

 

[Kassiopeija]

Stanley Milgram, a well known Social Psychologist, did some tests on how people respond to directives (obey) from perceived authorities. It was frightening the high percentage of people who distance their own personal responsibility from something when an "authority figure" tells them what to do.

Neuroscience teaches us that the development of brain tissue in the frontal cortices (etc) is virtually free, so a human can always decide differently. But I reckon your argument because sociology gives out true results on a broader scale and that's why these insights are extensively used by advertising corpse or other kinds of mass media manipulation. Persons of special interests, you name it.

Humans can be immensely shaped by their upbringing so that's why it is important not to damage their brains by maltreatment/abuse and nourish empathy and humane values. Some of the stuff that's happened was obviously downright evil just by judging by the feeling you get when you only see copies of the actual death. This is an emotional responce that can be observed even in higher evolvedf animals, e.g. wolfpacks or rats, they fight hard for their group status but when the loser signals defeat the attacker stops and in most of the times, aggression isn't deadly and serves a positive social function.

But we know already that there are humans (psychopaths and sadists) which have a certain part of their brain not really developed, the neurons there are less connected and seeing on an REM less active. Experiments suggest these people feel no empathy for their kind. Empathy prevents extreme situations alone.

For example Hitler was in a state of constant toxic psychosis because he became politoxic addicted from all the stimulants he took before speeches. Then he had parkinson = actual brain tisssue damage. Totally unfit to be a leader of anything in all regard!

In the case of World War II atrocities to Jews, the authority training which allowed the atrocities, can be traced to Kaiser Wilhelm and his public schools training programs (indoctrination, obedience training). He didn't want thinkers, he wanted obedient soldiers and workers.

There's even much more to it a longlasting christian antisemitism simply out of religious and/or political reasons as this stuff is intertwined throughout the last 2000 years.

Jews fell prey for Hitler's political play to create a picture of a common enemy and by so, ally the rest. He knew the european history very well and understood the tragic dynamic central europe had taken since the 1000 year old reich. His deceivings fell on fertile grounds and he sacrificed countless millions as collateral damage in his granddelusional quest for power & domination. Because... he has no empathy, and not even sympathy for his own kind, like the incidents of his last days at the Führerbunker in Berlin confess.

A normal person with a healthy brain would never consider such a method in the first place, they would be horrified from themselves. It's something you can get a glimpse of when you awake horrified from a nightmare when you stabbed someone to death or so.

It's completely unnatural to do so and serves absolutely no positive biological or evolutionairy function and neither makes sense under a capitalistic attitude.

Science also more & more unravels that we have more & more neurotoxins in our environment and that the number of psychological diseases is increasingly mounting. The longlasting damage alcohol does to a fetus brain is mindblowing.

Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Budley Doright]

I actually argued very effectively that lockdowns have not sufficiently reduced the growth of new cases to keep healthcare systems from being overloaded which was exactly why they were put into place. That's a distinction that the house-arrest crowd has repeatedly avoided because of the utter lack of direct evidence that they have done so.
Umm nope not effectively at all, you said so, in fact you said you did a shit job and were really upset at the pushback lol.
In fact, everyone who has even tried to defend the stripping of our liberties and livelihoods has gone from "they worked" to "they helped"
When will you answer the “what is a lockdown”? I know it’s a hard one lol
while avoiding talking about the looming famine. Not one effective argument has been made, except by that british chap, ginjawarrior. He gave a challenging debate, even though he was projecting dishonestly.
“bet you feel like a right fucking idiot now..”
Yes very effective lol

 

[UncleBuck]

About 15,000 Jews were killed per day in death camps in the fall of 1942. It's hard to lay the blame for that on just one kind of government malfeasance, so I'll put it under the general category of government caused democide

Could probably make a case that much of it was fiat money and government schools related, but I'll save that for another time.

Thanks government.

I’m gonna say that was more due to racist Jew haters like you

but hey at least you finally acknowledge the holocaust. Toobad I already exposed you as a holocaust denier

 

[UncleBuck]

Stanley Milgram, a well known Social Psychologist, did some tests on how people respond to directives (obey) from perceived authorities. It was frightening the high percentage of people who distance their own personal responsibility from something when an "authority figure" tells them what to do.

In the case of World War II atrocities to Jews, the authority training which allowed the atrocities, can be traced to Kaiser Wilhelm and his public schools training programs (indoctrination, obedience training). He didn't want thinkers, he wanted obedient soldiers and workers.

That same "education" model was brought to the USA in the mid 1800s and is still used today. It replaced critical thinking with obedience to authority (by intentional design) and is directly or indirectly responsible for much of the fuckery going on today. Boot licking people here won't touch that argument, which is pretty funny and sort of proves my point.

No, the holocaust was made possible by right wing retards buying into ridiculous conspiracy theories about jews

 

[Fogdog]

I agree. New York is almost at herd immunity despite the lockdowns.

Cuomo Says 21% of Those Tested in N.Y.C. Had Virus Antibodies (Published 2020)

The preliminary data suggests that many more New Yorkers may have been infected than was previously believed.

www.nytimes.com

WOW, that's more than 1 out of every 5 from samples taken two weeks ago. With an eight day doubling rate, let's see...

So 80% more to go, hospitals and staff are wrecked -- they couldn't sustain their current pace for much longer. Finally they are starting to see fewer cases and can recover. They can even start addressing less urgent care. 80% of the population are not immune. You say this means lockdowns don't work?

Yeah, you should listen to experts and go back to doing what you know something about.

 

[Budley Doright]

Another interesting article

Here's Why Herd Immunity Won't Save Us From The COVID-19 Pandemic

It's hard to predict things in a pandemic.

www.sciencealert.com

 

[Budley Doright]

So 80% more to go, hospitals and staff are wrecked -- they couldn't sustain their current pace for much longer. Finally they are starting to see fewer cases and can recover. They can even start addressing less urgent care. 80% of the population are not immune. You say this means lockdowns don't work?

Yeah, you should listen to experts and go back to doing what you know something about.

Seems that when we reach herd immunity we’ll be just peachy. Let everyone hold hands and rejoice that we saved the economy ...........

 

[Fogdog]

For those who think that staying at home to avoid spreading or catching this virus (aka "lockdown") doesn't work because "25% of the people in NYC" have been exposed to Coronavirus and Lockdowns have been in place for a whole month". Here's some interesting news to counter that bs:

Positive Test Rates For COVID-19 Are As High As 87% At Some Michigan Prisons

A new lawsuit accuses the state Department of Corrections of allowing the rampant spread of the coronavirus.

www.huffpost.com

Positive Test Rates For COVID-19 Are As High As 87% At Some Michigan Prisons

The coronavirus has swept through Lakeland unabated, three inmates told HuffPost. At least 13 men have died and more than 50 have been hospitalized. Of 266 inmates that the Michigan Department of Corrections (MDOC) tested for the virus in units that hold patients with other health issues, 208 came back positive. Overall, about 57% of Lakeland’s 1,400 prisoners have tested positive.

“We weren’t sentenced to death, but as of now everyone feels like they’re on their way,” said Lakeland inmate Patrick Wilson, 49. Wilson, who is serving a life sentence, has had multiple open-heart surgeries and suffers from a range of health issues. “A lot of guys around here are nervous and scared that this is going to hit home and they’re going to die.”

It's more evidence that social distancing, staying home, closing businesses to avoid social interactions works to reduce the rate of spread of Covid-19. This virus spreads rapidly and easily when people are in close contact with others. If nothing is done, the virus spreads rapidly as those truly experiencing "lockdowns" can report.

 

[Fogdog]

Seems that when we reach herd immunity we’ll be just peachy. Let everyone hold hands and rejoice that we saved the economy ...........View attachment 4549573

Sweden announced it is only weeks away from herd immunity.

Will Swedes develop immunity?
History will judge which countries got it right. But the latest scientific discussion is focused on the number of Swedes who may have contracted the virus without showing any symptoms.

This is important because many scientists here believe Swedes may end up with much higher immunity levels compared with those living under stricter regulations.

A public health agency report this week suggested around a third of people in Stockholm will have been infected by the start of May.

That was later revised down to 26% after the agency admitted a calculation error. But several high-profile scientists have offered even greater numbers.

Prof Johan Giesecke, ex-chief scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC), believes at least half of all Stockholmers will have caught the virus by the end of the month.

It could even be up to half the population of Sweden, suggests Stockholm University mathematician Tom Britton.

Coronavirus: Has Sweden got its science right?

The strategy devised by scientists was to keep large parts of society open but not everyone is convinced.

www.bbc.com

The most damning part of this article is:

What do the numbers tell us?
Sweden, with a population of 10 million, remains amongst the top 20 in the world when it comes to the total number of cases, even though it mostly only tests those with severe symptoms. More widespread checks on key workers are now being introduced.

It has higher death rates in relation to its population size than anywhere else in Scandinavia.

Unlike in some countries, Sweden's statistics do include elderly care home residents, who account for around 50% of all deaths. Dr Tegnell admits that is a major concern.

So, yeah, this is more evidence that lockdowns work and those calling for ending the lockdowns are influenced by some death cult funded by Republican one-percenters. Also ignorance. If you think education is expensive, compare that to the cost of ignorance.

This a a black mark on Sweden's government. I wonder how the current administration will fare in the next election. The people who lost their loved ones are probably wishing fewer burgers or smorrebrod were sold last month instead of their parents or partners were dying. Their elder care facilities took it hard.

 

[Fogdog]

POLITICO Poll of Polls — Swedish polls, trends and election news for Sweden

POLLING FROM ACROSS EUROPE. UPDATED DAILY. Sweden — European election 2024 results Check European election 2024 results for all EU countries. Sweden — National parliament voting intention What is P…

www.politico.eu

Referring to my own question asked above:

What DO the people of Sweden think of their government now that they have weathered the coronavirus storm while their government left them standing naked in the middle of it?

Answer: There is a groundswell forming that opposes the current center-right controlled government:



Opposition to lockdowns is a right wing political sentiment. Anybody who supports that policy has been contaminated by Nazi propaganda.

 

[Rob Roy]

I’m gonna say that was more due to racist Jew haters like you

but hey at least you finally acknowledge the holocaust. Toobad I already exposed you as a holocaust denier

Throughout the 1930s Jews faced intense discriminatory legislation, government school obedience trained Germans obeyed their masters and not their conscience.

Sort of like what's going on in the USA today with some people.