Lockdowns don't work.

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
I have nothing against gun shows. I just think that the license to buy a fire-arm should require proper training and background checks. Statistics don't support the notion that the majority of gun owners should be considered responsible.
I agree. But you don't have to pass the same background checks at Gun Shows as you do at an actual gun shop. I could buy them and sell them for more at a show, but I wouldn't.

The private transfer of firearms is different than the stores, so the shows are kinda a loophole to get around more aggressive background checks.

And you are right again. Most people shouldn't have any guns.

And Idiocracy is one of my favorite movies because it's funny as fuck and is actually totally true, lol. People are getting dumber.
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
I know a bunch of people here in E Ky that shouldnt be able to own a firearm, or even a sling shot.


1588593785180.png

Last week, tRUmp said we would lose maybe 60,000 people. 5 days later we passed that mark.

Now he is saying maybe 100,000. We will be up to 80,000 in the next week, or so.

Experts say as many as 250,000 by the end of JUNE.
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
This really makes no fucking sense. At all.

'It makes no sense': Feds consider relaxing infection control in U.S. nursing homes While Infection is Exploding

Look for 500,000 DEAD. Or MORE. CAN YOU SAY 1,000,000????


The federal government is considering rolling back infection control requirements in U.S. nursing homes – even as the long-term care industry's residents and workers are overwhelmed by the coronavirus.


A rule proposed last year by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) would modify the amount of time an infection preventionist must devote to a facility from at least part-time to "sufficient time," an undefined term that lets the facility decide how much time should be spent. The regulation has not been finalized, but CMS last week defended its proposal, saying it aims to reduce regulatory burden and strengthen infection control.
Opponents of the change said the rule could leave nursing home residents more vulnerable to infection. They expressed concern, especially given the devastation COVID-19 has caused within long-term care facilities.

"It makes no sense at all – prior to pandemic, but more so now during a pandemic – to roll back any of the necessary infection and control requirements and the federal regulations," said Lindsay Heckler, a supervising attorney at the Center for Elder Law & Justice, a civil legal services agency in Buffalo, New York. "They should be strengthening these infection and control requirements."

CMS has acknowledged that infection is "the leading cause of morbidity and mortality" in the nation's 15,600 nursing homes. In its proposed rule, the agency said between 1.6 million and 3.8 million infections occur each year in those facilities, with almost 388,000 deaths attributed to infections.


The coronavirus has put a spotlight on the problem. More than 16,000 long-term care residents and staff have died of COVID-19, according to a USA TODAY analysis of government data. And nearly 97,000 residents and staff have tested positive for the virus. Those figures are an undercount, because testing has been limited and many states have not released full data.

CMS told USA TODAY its rule would allow facilities to determine for themselves the time needed for infection prevention and go above part-time when warranted.

"This is a person-centered approach to care and would allow CMS to hold facilities accountable by having the infection preventionist onsite full time, especially in times of an outbreak," the agency said in a statement last week.

The changes were first proposed in July 2019, part of an ongoing effort by the Trump administration to reduce regulations for nursing home providers and suppliers. In addition to modifying the infection preventionist requirement, the proposed rule would also reduce the need for a facility-wide assessment from once a year to every other year and allow certain facilities to disregard a requirement that caps residents at two per room. CMS said the changes would reform "unnecessary, obsolete or excessively burdensome" requirements.

CMS, which has the authority to change regulations on nursing homes without legislation, said the proposal is still under review. There were 1,731 comments on the rule – from nursing home owners to advocates to residents and their family members – when the period for public input closed in September.

Some of the submissions are prescient given what has since occurred with COVID-19.

"Too many people have died and too many have suffered," Alice Hedt, a former director of the National Ombudsman Center, wrote in a comment posted Sept. 24. "Minimizing the requirements of the Infection Preventionist when we know infections can be prevented and addressed will result in even more deaths and suffering. I personally think this person should be full time in every facility until the death rate from infection and unnecessary hospitalizations decline by fifty percent."

Hedt, who spent 30 years as an advocate for long-term care residents, called the proposal "a slap in the face of residents who are more frail than anytime in our long term care history."

Experts say COVID-19’s devastating impact on people in long-term care is due to a complex mix of factors, including the characteristics of the virus, vulnerability of older adults and those with underlying conditions, staffing levels and national availability of testing and personal protective equipment. For some, the virus' effect on nursing homes has renewed their concerns about the proposed rule.

"That softening of that rule I think, in retrospect, is exactly the wrong thing," said Christopher Laxton, the executive director of The Society for Post-Acute and Long-Term Care Medicine.

Laxton, whose association represents about 5,500 medical professionals working in long-term care settings, last year offered tepid support of the change, writing that his group didn’t object to the new language but that both terms "may be confusing and difficult to define." He wrote that the amount of time spent on infection prevention should be based on real-life factors, such as the facility’s risk assessment, seasonal changes and the presence of outbreaks.

In an interview last week, he said it is “a different world than when we first commented on that proposal.”

"At this point, sufficient time for an infection control preventionist in a building means full time," he said. "And it means dedicated to a single building. And being there every day. That's what sufficient means in this context. It may not mean that outside of a COVID pandemic. But it certainly means it now."

Opposition to proposed rule
People who oppose CMS’ rule change say COVID-19 has proven that strong infection control is paramount.

The Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC) has remained steadfast in its opposition to CMS’ proposed rule. The nonprofit organization said it was disappointed to see CMS acquiesce to the argument that compliance is overly burdensome and expressed concern that the federal government was trying to change the regulations, which have been phased in since late 2016, before their impact has fully been felt.

"The COIVD-19 outbreak has really brought to light the opportunities and vulnerabilities of long-term care and the need for effective infection prevention," said APIC President Connie Steed, who is the director of infection prevention and control at Prisma Health in South Carolina. "And it doesn't matter if it's COVID-19 or influenza or other concerning infections and outbreaks that can occur in these settings. A robust infection prevention control program is really imperative for these types of facilities."

Search USA TODAY's database of facilities with COVID-19 cases here:



Sorry, but your browser does not support frames.


Carol Buckner, a registered nurse who works in telehealth, said she has long had concerns about the quality of care at the Rochester, New York nursing home where her brother lives, The Pearl Nursing and Rehabilitation. The center, which until recently was named New Roc Nursing and Rehabilitation Center, is one of 88 nursing homes identified by CMS as a Special Focus Facility, homes that have chronic deficiencies and face additional government oversight.

"There’s not enough staff. They’re not trained. And there’s no direct oversight. I never see a nurse in there unless they’re passing meds," she said. "And then you add COVID into this?"

The facility's administrator did not respond to a request for comment

Last year, Buckner wrote to CMS to object to the proposed rule change by noting that infection control is the "single most protective" measure a facility can provide its residents. She said she knows her brother’s home has an infection preventionist only because she once spotted a staff list on a visit and saw that title listed beside a person’s name. She does not know how many hours the employee devotes to infection control.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Coronavirus and the Sweden Myth
The country’s approach to the pandemic sets a seductive example. But the United States shouldn’t copy it.

For countries battling the coronavirus pandemic, Sweden sets a seductive example. While the world’s biggest economies have shut down, one small, well-governed Scandinavian country has allowed most businesses to stay open. The strategy apparently relies on “herd immunity,” in which a critical mass of infection occurs in lower-risk populations that ultimately thwarts transmission.

But the reality is not so simple for Sweden. Government authorities there seem to be for this strategy, then against it, then for it again if the data look promising. And it’s dangerous to assume that even if the strategy works in Sweden, it will work elsewhere. Leaders are grasping for strategies in a time of great uncertainty — but the Swedish model should be approached with caution.

In Sweden, business is not actually proceeding as usual. Most travel and mass gatherings are not allowed, and some schools have been closed. But restrictions from government are considerably less severe than many other countries. Restaurants and bars are still functioning, some of them only with minimal distancing taking place.

The results have been mixed. Sweden has the highest fatalities and case count per capita in Scandinavia, but is lower than some of its neighbors to the south. Economic disruption has been significant but not as debilitating as other countries. In the capital, Stockholm, the nation’s top infectious disease official recently estimated that approximately 25 percent of the population has developed antibodies.

It is too early to tell whether the approach has worked. Stockholm isn’t all of Sweden. And 25 percent of its population with antibodies is not cause for an immunity celebration. We don’t know if that percentage is accurate because the data isn’t available, the antibody tests still appear to be of uncertain accuracy, and we don’t even know what a positive antibody test means. There is some optimism that most people who are infected will have some temporary immunity. But if immunity is short-lived and only present in some individuals, that already uncertain 25 percent becomes even less compelling. We also still don’t know what total population percentage would be necessary to reach the herd immunity goal. It could be as high as 80 percent of the population.

Even if we had perfect knowledge of the Swedish case, there are huge risks with copying the strategy in a country like the United States. The American people are far less healthy than Swedes. They have significantly higher rates of diabetes and hypertension, two of the most-risky underlying conditions. Four out of every 10 Americans are obese. A herd immunity strategy in America would mean that many of these people would be on some form of lockdown for many more weeks, most likely months.

Moreover, the Sweden example demonstrates that a targeted herd immunity strategy doesn’t do much to protect at-risk populations either. Deaths among the elderly in Sweden have been painfully high. In a more densely populated country like the United States, and with a larger proportion of vulnerable people, the human toll of a herd immunity strategy could be devastating.

But what about the economy? The choice is not between indefinite shutdown and Russian roulette. A transition needs to occur that balances the risks at play. From that perspective, Sweden is the future. But not because of a herd immunity strategy. Because a more targeted approach to social distancing can be deployed when the timing calls for it, when old-fashioned public health methods can foster a gradual easing of restrictions in a way that can be tweaked as we learn more and develop new tools — treatments, understanding of immunity, testing improvements, and epidemiological data.

The key will be for countries not to let their guard down too soon. They must roll out a testing and contact-tracing infrastructure that will allow them to identify outbreaks early and isolate and quarantine as necessary. In the United States, this is a realistic goal if there’s enough political willpower, fiscal firepower, and coordination. These things — not Sweden’s experience — should guide our next steps.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
This really makes no fucking sense. At all.

'It makes no sense': Feds consider relaxing infection control in U.S. nursing homes While Infection is Exploding

Look for 500,000 DEAD. Or MORE. CAN YOU SAY 1,000,000????


The federal government is considering rolling back infection control requirements in U.S. nursing homes – even as the long-term care industry's residents and workers are overwhelmed by the coronavirus.


A rule proposed last year by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) would modify the amount of time an infection preventionist must devote to a facility from at least part-time to "sufficient time," an undefined term that lets the facility decide how much time should be spent. The regulation has not been finalized, but CMS last week defended its proposal, saying it aims to reduce regulatory burden and strengthen infection control.
Opponents of the change said the rule could leave nursing home residents more vulnerable to infection. They expressed concern, especially given the devastation COVID-19 has caused within long-term care facilities.

"It makes no sense at all – prior to pandemic, but more so now during a pandemic – to roll back any of the necessary infection and control requirements and the federal regulations," said Lindsay Heckler, a supervising attorney at the Center for Elder Law & Justice, a civil legal services agency in Buffalo, New York. "They should be strengthening these infection and control requirements."

CMS has acknowledged that infection is "the leading cause of morbidity and mortality" in the nation's 15,600 nursing homes. In its proposed rule, the agency said between 1.6 million and 3.8 million infections occur each year in those facilities, with almost 388,000 deaths attributed to infections.


The coronavirus has put a spotlight on the problem. More than 16,000 long-term care residents and staff have died of COVID-19, according to a USA TODAY analysis of government data. And nearly 97,000 residents and staff have tested positive for the virus. Those figures are an undercount, because testing has been limited and many states have not released full data.

CMS told USA TODAY its rule would allow facilities to determine for themselves the time needed for infection prevention and go above part-time when warranted.

"This is a person-centered approach to care and would allow CMS to hold facilities accountable by having the infection preventionist onsite full time, especially in times of an outbreak," the agency said in a statement last week.

The changes were first proposed in July 2019, part of an ongoing effort by the Trump administration to reduce regulations for nursing home providers and suppliers. In addition to modifying the infection preventionist requirement, the proposed rule would also reduce the need for a facility-wide assessment from once a year to every other year and allow certain facilities to disregard a requirement that caps residents at two per room. CMS said the changes would reform "unnecessary, obsolete or excessively burdensome" requirements.

CMS, which has the authority to change regulations on nursing homes without legislation, said the proposal is still under review. There were 1,731 comments on the rule – from nursing home owners to advocates to residents and their family members – when the period for public input closed in September.

Some of the submissions are prescient given what has since occurred with COVID-19.

"Too many people have died and too many have suffered," Alice Hedt, a former director of the National Ombudsman Center, wrote in a comment posted Sept. 24. "Minimizing the requirements of the Infection Preventionist when we know infections can be prevented and addressed will result in even more deaths and suffering. I personally think this person should be full time in every facility until the death rate from infection and unnecessary hospitalizations decline by fifty percent."

Hedt, who spent 30 years as an advocate for long-term care residents, called the proposal "a slap in the face of residents who are more frail than anytime in our long term care history."

Experts say COVID-19’s devastating impact on people in long-term care is due to a complex mix of factors, including the characteristics of the virus, vulnerability of older adults and those with underlying conditions, staffing levels and national availability of testing and personal protective equipment. For some, the virus' effect on nursing homes has renewed their concerns about the proposed rule.

"That softening of that rule I think, in retrospect, is exactly the wrong thing," said Christopher Laxton, the executive director of The Society for Post-Acute and Long-Term Care Medicine.

Laxton, whose association represents about 5,500 medical professionals working in long-term care settings, last year offered tepid support of the change, writing that his group didn’t object to the new language but that both terms "may be confusing and difficult to define." He wrote that the amount of time spent on infection prevention should be based on real-life factors, such as the facility’s risk assessment, seasonal changes and the presence of outbreaks.

In an interview last week, he said it is “a different world than when we first commented on that proposal.”

"At this point, sufficient time for an infection control preventionist in a building means full time," he said. "And it means dedicated to a single building. And being there every day. That's what sufficient means in this context. It may not mean that outside of a COVID pandemic. But it certainly means it now."

Opposition to proposed rule
People who oppose CMS’ rule change say COVID-19 has proven that strong infection control is paramount.

The Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC) has remained steadfast in its opposition to CMS’ proposed rule. The nonprofit organization said it was disappointed to see CMS acquiesce to the argument that compliance is overly burdensome and expressed concern that the federal government was trying to change the regulations, which have been phased in since late 2016, before their impact has fully been felt.

"The COIVD-19 outbreak has really brought to light the opportunities and vulnerabilities of long-term care and the need for effective infection prevention," said APIC President Connie Steed, who is the director of infection prevention and control at Prisma Health in South Carolina. "And it doesn't matter if it's COVID-19 or influenza or other concerning infections and outbreaks that can occur in these settings. A robust infection prevention control program is really imperative for these types of facilities."

Search USA TODAY's database of facilities with COVID-19 cases here:



Sorry, but your browser does not support frames.


Carol Buckner, a registered nurse who works in telehealth, said she has long had concerns about the quality of care at the Rochester, New York nursing home where her brother lives, The Pearl Nursing and Rehabilitation. The center, which until recently was named New Roc Nursing and Rehabilitation Center, is one of 88 nursing homes identified by CMS as a Special Focus Facility, homes that have chronic deficiencies and face additional government oversight.

"There’s not enough staff. They’re not trained. And there’s no direct oversight. I never see a nurse in there unless they’re passing meds," she said. "And then you add COVID into this?"

The facility's administrator did not respond to a request for comment

Last year, Buckner wrote to CMS to object to the proposed rule change by noting that infection control is the "single most protective" measure a facility can provide its residents. She said she knows her brother’s home has an infection preventionist only because she once spotted a staff list on a visit and saw that title listed beside a person’s name. She does not know how many hours the employee devotes to infection control.
Pffff their old and probably fat so really does it matter? Apparently they would all rather die anyways if locked down.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
I have nothing against gun shows. I just think that the license to buy a fire-arm should require proper training and background checks. Statistics don't support the notion that the majority of gun owners should be considered responsible.
I'm more worried about you ex military with guns than civilians. as we should be.

especially those that espouse conspiracy theories about lockdowns on the internet.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
The scientific evidence that lockdowns have slowed the transmission is a fact.

I may be stupid but I am on the side of doctors and scientists. You are on the side of gun toting wackjobs who storm state buildings with misspelled placards.

If I'm stupid, what're you?
The economic fallout of lockdowns are not worth the cost of saving everyone....... choices must be made ...... it’s unfortunate but some here think the old and fat are the ones that must be sacrificed ....... pay attention lol.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
The economic fallout of lockdowns are not worth the cost of saving everyone....... choices must be made ...... it’s unfortunate but some here think the old and fat are the ones that must be sacrificed ....... pay attention lol.
No I agree with him on that one. It makes no sense to relax the guard at nursing homes at all and I never expressed a desire to see anyone sacrificed, nor framed it as a matter of sacrificing people to save the economy, we're losing people either way. You already knew that but I guess jokes about sacrificing people are funny as long as you're saying it's my idea.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
No I agree with him on that one. It makes no sense to relax the guard at nursing homes at all and I never expressed a desire to see anyone sacrificed, nor framed it as a matter of sacrificing people to save the economy, we're losing people either way. You already knew that but I guess jokes about sacrificing people are funny as long as you're saying it's my idea.
99.9% of people reading your thread have made the assumption that you have. That number could change as more data is made available but thanks for your interest.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
No, they have not. Despite the desperate attempts by about 5 or 6 active participants who post memes but no thoughtful rebuttals, anyone who actually reads the whole thread can see what it contains.

Most don't read it. Most can't even be bothered to get through a page before replying. This is evident. For example, look at that idiot @CunningCanuk just right there asking for a citation that I gave you on the previous page.

That's why I have to keep reminding people that you want to actually shoot people in the face for going outside.
The idiot is the one reading and posting anything from the propaganda rag you cited as if it's factual. LMAO.

Got anything reputable you can share?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Sweden is more than a month ahead of any of those countries in its outbreak.
The highest death rate due to the virus among any other Northern European states. There is a groundswell against the right wing Swedish government growing too.

As shown in AC's tirades against science, a typical science denier just attacks each and every point of evidence without offering a better explanation. It's not just one bit of data but the preponderance of evidence that rational people find convincing. That, and the fact that people who study and work on these problems are giving a single coherent message. Lockdowns work. Others have shown that the alternative of "nothing to see, move along" offers the prospect of a worse recovery. It's a death cult, pure and simple
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Coronavirus Live Updates: Trump Administration Models Predict Near Doubling of Daily Death Toll by June
Tensions between Washington and Beijing escalated. The Supreme Court heard a case remotely for the first time. J. Crew filed for bankruptcy protection.

RIGHT NOW
Projections from an internal report show that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention forecast about 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month.

Here’s what you need to know:
The Trump administration projects about 3,000 daily deaths by early June.
As President Trump presses for states to reopen their economies, his administration is privately projecting a steady rise in the number of cases and deaths from the coronavirus over the next several weeks, reaching about 3,000 daily deaths on June 1, according to an internal document obtained by The New York Times, nearly double from the current level of about 1,750.
The projections, based on government modeling pulled together in chart form by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, forecast about 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month, up from about 25,000 cases now.

The numbers underscore a sobering reality: While the United States has been hunkered down for the past seven weeks, not much has changed. And the reopening to the economy will make matters worse.
 

jimihendrix1

Well-Known Member
Coronavirus Live Updates: Trump Administration Models Predict Near Doubling of Daily Death Toll by June

As President Trump presses for states to reopen their economies, his administration is privately projecting a steady rise in the number of cases and deaths from the coronavirus over the next several weeks, reaching about 3,000 daily deaths on June 1, according to an internal document obtained by The New York Times, nearly double from the current level of about 1,750.


The projections, based on government modeling pulled together in chart form by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, forecast about 200,000 new cases each day by the end of the month, up from about 25,000 cases now. The numbers underscore a sobering reality: While the United States has been hunkered down for the past seven weeks, not much has changed. And the reopening to the economy will make matters worse.

There remains a large number of counties whose burden continues to grow,” the C.D.C. warned.

The projections confirm the primary fear of public health experts: that a reopening of the economy will put the nation right back where it was in mid-March, when cases were rising so rapidly in some parts of the country that patients were dying on gurneys in hospital hallways as the health care system grew overloaded.

On Sunday, Mr. Trump said deaths in the United States could reach 100,000, twice as many as he had forecast just two weeks ago. But his new estimate still underestimates what his own administration is now predicting to be the total death toll by the end of May — much less in the months that follow. It follows a pattern for Mr. Trump, who has frequently understated the impact of the disease.

We’re going to lose anywhere from 75, 80 to 100,000 people,” he said in a virtual town hall on Fox News. “That’s a horrible thing. We shouldn’t lose one person over this.”

Mr. Gottlieb said Americans “may be facing the prospect that 20,000, 30,000 new cases a day diagnosed becomes the new normal.”

Some states that have partially reopened are still seeing an increase in cases, including Iowa, Minnesota, Tennessee and Texas, according to Times data. Indiana, Kansas and Nebraska also are seeing an increase in cases and reopened some businesses on Monday. Alaska has also reopened and is seeing a small number of increasing case
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
The highest death rate due to the virus among any other Northern European states. There is a groundswell against the right wing Swedish government growing too.

As shown in AC's tirades against science, a typical science denier just attacks each and every point of evidence without offering a better explanation. It's not just one bit of data but the preponderance of evidence that rational people find convincing. That, and the fact that people who study and work on these problems are giving a single coherent message. Lockdowns work. Others have shown that the alternative of "nothing to see, move along" offers the prospect of a worse recovery. It's a death cult, pure and simple
You gotta love a guy who proudly starts a thread with the title "Lockdowns don't work" and then question the intelligence of anyone who would dispute such nonsense. To prove his point he quotes articles from a propaganda website rife with conspiracy nuts as contributing authors.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You gotta love a guy who proudly starts a thread with the title "Lockdowns don't work" and then question the intelligence of anyone who would dispute such nonsense. To prove his point he quotes articles from a propaganda website rife with conspiracy nuts as contributing authors.
It's been sad watching his cognitive ability erode while his use of propaganda increased. It's how we got Trump, cigarette lobbies and climate change denial. We may now add Covid death cults to the list of problems that ignorance brings. It's not just one angry out of business tourism operator, we have 40% of this country in the same bad way. That form of propaganda works, or at least it has worked. Not sure how well it will going forward.
 
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