To all breeders

[Bobg1981]

Newb question from a somewhat advanced grower. If I cross pollinate two strains to get an F1 then Reverse the F1 and pollinate it with itself will this S1 then be a copy of the F1? Is this a good way of producing hybridised genetics?

 

[T macc]

There will be variances in phenotypes. An S1 is not a clone. You can make S2's of the keeper S1, and further lock down traits

 

[mordynyc]

Newb question from a somewhat advanced grower. If I cross pollinate two strains to get an F1 then Reverse the F1 and pollinate it with itself will this S1 then be a copy of the F1? Is this a good way of producing hybridised genetics?

Absolutely not.
If you take a landrace and cross it with another landrace you get a uniform F1 hybrid.
If you make an F2 from a landrace it should be irrelevant if you chose healthy donors you're just continuing nature.
Once you talk heirlooms, clone only, polyhybrids etc the f1 will have recessive traits triggered if the grandparents are related same with an S1 of a non-landrace or ibl hence retarded kids can come about.

 

[MrToad69]

Pretty much well covered..
Bottom line: If you self a plant, unless all the traits are "Homozygous" Dominant or Recessive..their will be some variation.

 

[Bobg1981]

Perhaps i should have explained my goal.. Im looking to produce large amounts of seeds (autoflowering) from 10 regular seeds (autos) what would be the best way in going about this to make them as stable as possible? As i look at it there are three options

1) self pollinate one female and use this pollen to pollinate the same plant
2) self pollinate and use this pollen to pollenate a female from the same batch of reg seeds
3) cross pollinate a male and female from the same batch

im not breeding to develop new strains so a bit of varience here and there is irrelevant to me. Just want to produce some seeds which i can pop fairly reliably and will produce good smoke. I had heard that the further down the lines you get with autos they become more Ruderalis and eventually end up with small plants and shit smoke.

apologies for the lack of clarity in the original post. This breeding stuff is new to me and im learning fast but its a steep curve to say the least


Appreciate your help

 

[Fluffy Butt]

You could open pollinate all the plants together, and have a bunch of heterozygous seeds. This would be the easiest thing to do. The resulting offspring would be considered f2's. This is a popular technique for rare strain repopulation runs.

You could also take two females of different auto strains and cross them, for a bunch of feminized f1's. I would do this if you are restricted by plant count, or if you are growing so many that you can't be bothered to cull males, though it is still wise to closely inspect each plant to avoid pollination from hermies.

 

[T macc]

If you're trying to make fems and only have 10 seeds, pop 3 seeds, attempt to reverse those 3 plants and hope one is a female and discard the males. Collect the pollen and pop the other 7 seeds. Now you have pollen and a newly flowering females. Pollinate 2 or so weeks after signs of flower.

Making regular seeds, just select the best looking male and let it go to town. You can collect pollen from the male and pollinate a branch from every female.

Choose the best quality buds to proceed with those seeds

 

[MrToad69]

If you bought your Autoflower seeds from reputable dealer , and have decent genetics..They should be more than stable for what your are trying to do..assuming f3-f6 anyway...

All depends on your long term goal?

My suggestion: Stagger your grow (2waves)..with the intention of producing fem seed from most of your females...and aome reg seed

Strategy: 1. plant 5 beans to begin with..Intention:To be reasonably sure you'll have at least one male and one female for genetic retention...2. A week and a half to two weeks later pop the other 5 beans....(It will Take a bit of time for the female to sprout balls once you have started spraying with collodial silver).....depending on strain you will need to begin spraying the females at the first sign of flowering approx 3rd-5th week

By doing a staggered start..you have an excellent chance a female from the first wave is producing plenty of "feminized" pollen by the time the second wave begins producing pistils..You should be able to pollenate the last of the pistils from the first wave too, but will have missed some pollenation as some pistils from that initial wave would have already deteriorated by the time the plant Produced fem pollen. 3. Separate the male(s) once light flipped and
Identified...4. Mark a branch or two on each of the females using a twist tie..and lightly dust with male pollen using a childs paint brush...dusting every day for a good 3 days...(these will be breeders to maintain the line for the future)...lightly mist the pollenated branches with water to kill stray
Pollen if you so desire...I would buy some of those organic gel caps from the organic store to save and freeze some pollen...mix pollen with baking flour (desiccant) 1:10 before putting in gelcap. You can destroy males after
.
Once the the females start producing feminized pollen you can pretty much
Open pollenate (save and freeze some of this pollen too)...Those branches dusted with male pollen just needed to provide some males...If a little feminized pollen created a slightly higher ratio of females on those branches..no big deal .

That should give you a good foundation of seed..Tip: dont spray collodial silver on too many branches as it reduces the number of available pistils to be pollenated..reducing potential seed count..you don't need that much pollen.

Just my 2-cents

Cheers
Toad





If

 

[Bobg1981]

If you're trying to make fems and only have 10 seeds, pop 3 seeds, attempt to reverse those 3 plants and hope one is a female and discard the males. Collect the pollen and pop the other 7 seeds. Now you have pollen and a newly flowering females. Pollinate 2 or so weeks after signs of flower.

Making regular seeds, just select the best looking male and let it go to town. You can collect pollen from the male and pollinate a branch from every female.

Choose the best quality buds to proceed with those seeds

Thanks T gonna try and have a go at making fems. Just going to try keeping it simple.

 

[Bobg1981]

If you bought your Autoflower seeds from reputable dealer , and have decent genetics..They should be more than stable for what your are trying to do..assuming f3-f6 anyway...

All depends on your long term goal?

My suggestion: Stagger your grow (2waves)..with the intention of producing fem seed from most of your females...and aome reg seed

Strategy: 1. plant 5 beans to begin with..Intention:To be reasonably sure you'll have at least one male and one female for genetic retention...2. A week and a half to two weeks later pop the other 5 beans....(It will Take a bit of time for the female to sprout balls once you have started spraying with collodial silver).....depending on strain you will need to begin spraying the females at the first sign of flowering approx 3rd-5th week

By doing a staggered start..you have an excellent chance a female from the first wave is producing plenty of "feminized" pollen by the time the second wave begins producing pistils..You should be able to pollenate the last of the pistils from the first wave too, but will have missed some pollenation as some pistils from that initial wave would have already deteriorated by the time the plant Produced fem pollen. 3. Separate the male(s) once light flipped and
Identified...4. Mark a branch or two on each of the females using a twist tie..and lightly dust with male pollen using a childs paint brush...dusting every day for a good 3 days...(these will be breeders to maintain the line for the future)...lightly mist the pollenated branches with water to kill stray
Pollen if you so desire...I would buy some of those organic gel caps from the organic store to save and freeze some pollen...mix pollen with baking flour (desiccant) 1:10 before putting in gelcap. You can destroy males after
.
Once the the females start producing feminized pollen you can pretty much
Open pollenate (save and freeze some of this pollen too)...Those branches dusted with male pollen just needed to provide some males...If a little feminized pollen created a slightly higher ratio of females on those branches..no big deal .

That should give you a good foundation of seed..Tip: dont spray collodial silver on too many branches as it reduces the number of available pistils to be pollenated..reducing potential seed count..you don't need that much pollen.

Just my 2-cents

Cheers
Toad





If

Thanks Toad yeah the seeds are onyx auto from short stuff. As you say i think if i can isolate branches and try to be careful with the pollen i could possible produce fem and reg seeds on different branches. Could be cool to have this option in the future not to have to keep in breeding. I will try to save the pollen from a male and from a selfied female then as you say get a viable female on the next round and pollinate a few branches with each pollen.

Ive also got some other auto fem seeds (different genetics) so was considering using some of the pollen on these as well. Not sure how stable the resulting seeds would be from this

Just as a side do you have any experince using Silver Thiosulphate over collodial? On other forums its been touted as being quicker and more effective.

 

[misterbrandon]

Newb question from a somewhat advanced grower. If I cross pollinate two strains to get an F1 then Reverse the F1 and pollinate it with itself will this S1 then be a copy of the F1? Is this a good way of producing hybridised genetics?

What is an S1 and F1?

 

[Bobg1981]

What is an S1 and F1?

S1 is the first generation offspring of a reversed female. F1 refers to the first generation of plants bred through male female lineage. The first is induced by using chemicals or stress to make a female plant produce male parts whilst the latter is two plants doing what they would do in nature

 

[Bobg1981]

You could also take two females of different auto strains and cross them, for a bunch of feminized f1's. I would do this if you are restricted by plant count, or if you are growing so many that you can't be bothered to cull males, though it is still wise to closely inspect each plant to avoid pollination from hermies.

Yeah on reflection this sounds like the better plan. I am restricted to 0 but obviously the less the better. Have you cross bred in this way before? i would have thought there would be a lot of varience in the feminised seeds you produced?

 

[misterbrandon]

S1 is the first generation offspring of a reversed female. F1 refers to the first generation of plants bred through male female lineage. The first is induced by using chemicals or stress to make a female plant produce male parts whilst the latter is two plants doing what they would do in nature

So a reversed female is a male plant that was made into a female and F1 are first generations bred thru hermaphrodite plants?

 

[MrToad69]

Thanks Toad yeah the seeds are onyx auto from short stuff. As you say i think if i can isolate branches and try to be careful with the pollen i could possible produce fem and reg seeds on different branches. Could be cool to have this option in the future not to have to keep in breeding. I will try to save the pollen from a male and from a selfied female then as you say get a viable female on the next round and pollinate a few branches with each pollen.

Ive also got some other auto fem seeds (different genetics) so was considering using some of the pollen on these as well. Not sure how stable the resulting seeds would be from this

Just as a side do you have any experince using Silver Thiosulphate over collodial? On other forums its been touted as being quicker and more effective.

I just use Collodial as I can make it myself which is quite easy.

Good luck

 

[T macc]

So a reversed female is a male plant that was made into a female and F1 are first generations bred thru hermaphrodite plants?

Lol
F1 is the first generation from a male and female of differing strains. A reversed female is a female plant made into a male, but the pollen is feminized.

 

[MrToad69]

Or rather..
The plant is still female, but because of hormonal trigger and the reduction in the production of ethylene "male like" flowers are produced with pollen having only female genetics

 

[xtsho]

Just as a side do you have any experince using Silver Thiosulphate over collodial? On other forums its been touted as being quicker and more effective.

I've used both with success but I use STS as it requires less spraying and is more reliable since you're measuring a specific amount of chemicals for the required strength. Colloidal silver requires much more spraying and some have difficulties with it due to the concentration not being strong enough. If you go the Colloidal silver method you're better off making it yourself rather than buying a premade product where the stated concentration can be completely wrong and you could end up spraying a weak solution that doesn't reverse the plant.

Good luck

 

[mordynyc]

I've used both with success but I use STS as it requires less spraying and is more reliable since you're measuring a specific amount of chemicals for the required strength. Colloidal silver requires much more spraying and some have difficulties with it due to the concentration not being strong enough. If you go the Colloidal silver method you're better off making it yourself rather than buying a premade product where the stated concentration can be completely wrong and you could end up spraying a weak solution that doesn't reverse the plant.

Good luck

CS is a waste of time! Spray until the leaves are silver lol
There's many recipes out there but you just need to make solution A and B and I am testing 2:1, no burning. 9:1 i see is too weAk. I spray once a week.

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You are purchasing 4 Ounces (by weight) of Sodium Thiosulfate (Pentahydrate) in powdered form. Sodium Thiosulfate. Sodium Thiosulfate; also known as Sodium Hyposulfite / Hyposulphite / Soda of Hypo; has hundreds of uses.

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Pure Silver Nitrate in a useful amount. As a chemist that grew up on Gilbert, taught, and worked as a. research chemist, I don't need a Kilo or 100 grams. I put the small amounts in a pure borosilicate jar.

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Dont pay $25 for this shit that's fucking dumb unless you have no choice.

 

[MrToad69]

I might have to give the give the alternative a go at some point...I've just always used the CS..old school, and never had an issue.