Public Health: Tips and information on how to prepare for the epidemic, avoid illness and protect our communities.

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I don't claim to know what you are or why you post the things you do.
Spit it out if ya got an issue hanimmal, I've been doing some quality posting of good information on this thread. These solutions will be rolled out in my country, if they make sense and at this point I figure they will, but confirmation is required and it won't be long in coming.

These options IMHO are about the only way out for your country and if they work as advertised, look for Donald to appear at his press conference in a white lab coat and tout it like snake oil. I say great! If he wants to sell and promote an effective treatment, fine, just as long as he does not fuck up production and deployment. Hanimmal, the effectiveness of remdesivir appears to be almost 100% and is very pronounced, based on the monkey trials and the leaked human trials, so yeah I'm optimistic, I have cause. I also posted reliable information on production rates and availability of this potential treatment and a small study on convalescent plasma transfusions that can leverage existing blood bank infrastructures and be deployed quickly too. We are waiting on clinical trials for that one too.

It's the search for truth and ideas that are important, not winning arguments. I'm waiting for the studies and I won't have to wait long. If America is gonna recover from this crises, these treatments and others will speed up that process profoundly and also impact American politics, Trump will most likely abuse it and it's deployment, he's fucked up everything he's ever touched. Those who want to "end the lock down" will seize upon it, but it is only part of a bigger effort to save lives while saving the economy.

I was referring to the emotional and acrimonious debates on the threads concerning "lock downs" that are suppose to focus on the facts and if you are trying to talk science, that is where the focus belongs. I was not referring to you, you are one of the polite ones. :D
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Spit it out if ya got an issue hanimmal, I've been doing some quality posting of good information on this thread. These solutions will be rolled out in my country, if they make sense and at this point I figure they will, but confirmation is required and it won't be long in coming.

These options IMHO are about the only way out for your country and if they work as advertised, look for Donald to appear at his press conference in a white lab coat and tout it like snake oil. I say great! If he wants to sell and promote an effective treatment, fine, just as long as he does not fuck up production and deployment. Hanimmal, the effectiveness of remdesivir appears to be almost 100% and is very pronounced, based on the monkey trials and the leaked human trials, so yeah I'm optimistic, I have cause. I also posted reliable information on production rates and availability of this potential treatment and a small study on convalescent plasma transfusions that can leverage existing blood bank infrastructures and be deployed quickly too. We are waiting on clinical trials for that one too.

It's the search for truth and ideas that are important, not winning arguments. I'm waiting for the studies and I won't have to wait long. If America is gonna recover from this crises, these treatments and others will speed up that process profoundly and also impact American politics, Trump will most likely abuse it and it's deployment, he's fucked up everything he's ever touched. Those who want to "end the lock down" will seize upon it, but it is only part of a bigger effort to save lives while saving the economy.

I was referring to the emotional and acrimonious debates on the threads concerning "lock downs" that are suppose to focus on the facts and if you are trying to talk science, that is where the focus belongs. I was not referring to you, you are one of the polite ones. :D
No issue.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I was at the grocery store the other day and was picking up some fish oil supplements and I was delighted to see that the vitamin D supplements were nearly cleaned out and they had a lot, a couple of weeks before the shelves were full. People are doing their homework it appears and getting smart. I take around 3000 IU/day myself and over 4,000 IUs/day is considered too much by some experts, I also try to get some sun in the backyard with the shirt off when the sunshines and it's not too cold, but cold is good for the immune system too IMHO.

Here is a recently released report using data from study on vitamin D in Ireland.
Could some poor covid-19 outcomes like death and ARDS be the result of vitamin D deficiency?

Could it be a factor in the astonishingly high mortality rate of darker skinned people in higher latitudes who suffer from covid-19? Chronic Vitamin D deficiency is also associated with with hypertension and other comorbidity factors among African Americans.

Could it prevent a covid-19 infection in the first place, requiring a higher viral load for instance?

Supplements are free cheap and sunshine is free, at this time of the year at least. Nobody wants to get this bug while deficient in vitamin D, it might be a fatal oversight, even for a younger person.
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Vitamin D could help fight off Covid-19 – new TILDA research
3rd April 2020
Researchers from The Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing (TILDA) at Trinity College Dublin have released a crucial report today in response to the COVID 19 pandemic.
The report ‘Vitamin D deficiency in Ireland – implications for COVID 19. Results from the Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing (TILDA)’ finds that Vitamin D plays a critical role in preventing respiratory infections, reducing antibiotic use, and boosting the immune system response to infections.
With one in eight Irish adults under 50 deficient in Vitamin D, the report highlights the importance of increasing intake.

How is Vitamin D produced?
Vitamin D is produced in the skin by exposing the body to just 10-15 minutes per day of sun. In Ireland Vitamin D can only be made between late March and late September. It cannot be made in winter, and the amount that we make in summer depends on how much sun we get, weather and other factors. Even in summer, getting a sufficient amount of Vitamin D can pose a challenge due to cloud cover, rainy weather and a lack of sunshine.
The good news is that deficiency can be remedied by adequate intake of foods and by supplementation. Vitamin D is readily found in foods like eggs, liver and oily fish – such as salmon or mackerel – as well as fortified foods such as cereals and dairy products.

Is the Irish population getting enough?
TILDA researchers have found there is insufficient daily intake of the vitamin across Ireland.
Some of TILDA’s key findings are:
  • 47% of all adults over 85 are deficient in winter
  • 27% of adults over 70 who are ‘cocooning’ are estimated to be deficient
  • 1 in 8 adults over 50 are deficient all year round
  • Only 4% of men and 15% of women take a Vitamin D supplement

Who is most at risk of Vitamin D deficiency?
People who get little sun exposure or eat inadequate amounts of fortified foods are most at risk, especially those who are currently house-bound or confined to their homes. Other people who fall into the high-risk category are those who are obese or physically inactive, and those that have asthma or chronic lung disease.
Vitamin D is available without prescription. What is needed now is for people to increase their Vitamin D intake, especially as supplementation is low across the nation, and particularly low in men.

What is the recommended intake for Vitamin D?
TILDA researchers recommend that adults over 50 should take supplements – not just in winter, but all year round if they don’t get enough sun. Those who are ‘cocooning’ at present should also take supplements.

Professor Rose Anne Kenny, Principal Investigator of TILDA, said:
‘’We have evidence to support a role for Vitamin D in the prevention of chest infections, particularly in older adults who have low levels. In one study Vitamin D reduced the risk of chest infections to half in people who took supplements. Though we do not know specifically of the role of Vitamin D in COVID infections, given its wider implications for improving immune responses and clear evidence for bone and muscle health, those cocooning and other at-risk cohorts should ensure they have an adequate intake of Vitamin D. Cocooning is a necessity but will reduce physical activity. Muscle deconditioning occurs rapidly in these circumstances and Vitamin D will help to maintain muscle health and strength in the current crisis.”

Dr Eamon Laird, Research Fellow in Medical Gerontology and co-author of the report, said:
‘‘These findings show our older adults have high levels of vitamin D deficiency which could have a significant negative impact on their immune response to infection. There is an even larger risk now of deficiency with those cocooning or confined indoors. However, vitamin D deficiency is not inevitable – eating foods such as oily fish, eggs, vitamin D fortified cereals or dairy products and a daily 400 IU (10ug) vitamin D supplement can help avoid deficiency. However, Ireland needs a formal vitamin D food policy/recommendation, which we are still lacking – for instance Finland has such a policy and has virtually eliminated deficiency in their population.”
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member

Coronavirus: COVID-19 Has Mutated To At Least 30 Different Strains, Study Reveals

KEY POINTS
  • The SARS-CoV-2 virus has mutated at least 30 times since it came out of China in December 2019
  • This horrific reality could mean one single vaccine may not immunize people worldwide against this disease
  • Scientists are scrambling to defeat this new challange
Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, might have mutated as many as 30 times since its first confirmed case in December 2019 in Wuhan, China. These mutations could mean one vaccine alone can't immunize people against all the mutations of SARS-CoV-2 spreading worldwide, according to an alarming study authored by a team of 14 Chinese scientists.

The preprint of this non-peer reviewed study, "Patient-derived mutations impact pathogenicity of SARS-CoV-2," was published Sunday in Medrxiv, the medical website distributing unpublished manuscripts about health sciences.

The study reported an "intrapersonal variation and 6 different mutations in the spike glycoprotein (S protein), including 2 different SNVs (single-nucleotide variants) that led to the same missense mutation. Therefore, we provide direct evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 has acquired mutations capable of substantially changing its pathogenicity."

It recorded at least 30 different genetic variations of SARS-CoV-2. This eye-opening finding means different strains of SARS-CoV-2 now affect different parts of the world, leading to huge challenges in finding an overall cure or a single vaccine effective against all these mutations.

Researchers analyzed strains from 11 randomly chosen coronavirus patients from Hangzhou, the capital of Zhejiang province. At the time of the study, there were 1,264 reported cases in Hangzhou. Researchers then tested how efficiently they could infect and kill cells. More than 30 different mutations of the virus were detected, of which 19 were previously undiscovered.

Researchers found that some of the most aggressive strains of SARS-CoV-2 were able to generate 270 times the viral load as the weakest strains. More disturbingly, the aggressive strains killed the human cells fastest. The study says the "true diversity" of the viral strains is underappreciated and must be understood in order to find a treatment or vaccine.


"Drug and vaccine development, while urgent, need to take the impact of these accumulating mutations, especially the founding mutations, into account to avoid potential pitfall," said the study.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Perhaps this might help explain some of the wide variations in the asymptomatic rates we are seeing from different sources. RT-PCR testing might have to be refined in the future, so that priority is given to suppressing the more lethal varieties of SARS-CoV-2. Also, perhaps milder strains that produce less severe symptoms, could be useful in suppressing the more lethal ones, if indeed they are more lethal, more study is required for sure. Treatment options when they become available would also have to be given higher priority for those with the more severe illness, if this is found to be the case.

Read the comments section for some professional criticism and assessment.
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Patient-derived mutations impact pathogenicity of SARS-CoV-2
Hangping Yao, Xiangyun Lu, Qiong Chen, Kaijin Xu, Yu Chen, Linfang Cheng, Fumin Liu, Zhigang Wu, Haibo Wu, Changzhong Jin, Min Zheng, Nanping Wu, Chao Jiang, Lanjuan Li
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.04.14.20060160
This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.

Preview PDF


Abstract
The sudden outbreak of the severe acute respiratory syndrome-coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) has spread globally with more than 1,300,000 patients diagnosed and a death toll of 70,000. Current genomic survey data suggest that single nucleotide variants (SNVs) are abundant. However, no mutation has been directly linked with functional changes in viral pathogenicity. Here we report functional characterizations of 11 patient-derived viral isolates, all of which have at least one mutation. Importantly, these viral isolates show significant variation in cytopathic effects and viral load, up to 270-fold differences, when infecting Vero-E6 cells. We observed intrapersonal variation and 6 different mutations in the spike glycoprotein (S protein), including 2 different SNVs that led to the same missense mutation. Therefore, we provide direct evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 has acquired mutations capable of substantially changing its pathogenicity.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Way more information than you need about the synthesis of remdesivir, but if you want to see how difficult it would be to duplicate it, or ramp up production, this is the video to watch for an intro. This drug has not been proven effective in proper double blind clinical trials in humans, but animal studies and limited human testing indicate it has great promise. More and better quality information should become available within a week or so about its efficacy. This might soon become a big part of the public debate around the covid-19 crises and any plan to recover from it, so if you want an in depth understanding, I'm assembling information here, for this drug and other potential treatments that might have an impact on mortality rates and hospital resource requirements over the next few months.
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Remdesivir | Potential Therapy for COVID-19? | Discovery, Synthesis and Mode of action

In this video, I am explaining how remdesivir looks like, how it was discovered, how it is synthesized and how it works.

Remdesivir is a potential therapeutic agent against COVID-19. Check out this video if you want to learn more about this drug!
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Just posting a follow-up on an earlier conversation. DIY was all breathy and giggly about some nickel-and-dime ventilators that were going to be built in an unheard of time. I was skeptical and our resident attention deficit disorder poster went ballistic. So, here is a recap of the earlier posts with a follow-up about what actually happened:

I'm keeping an eye on this and I'm sure Donald who is clutching at straws will hold a news conference on it soon, so you folks might get to test drive one too! Opinions and discussion are invited!
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COVID-19 | Corona Virus: James Dyson designed a new ventilator in 10 days

"A ventilator supports a patient who is no longer able to maintain their own airways, but sadly there is currently a significant shortage, both in the UK and other countries around the world," Dyson wrote. Dyson said the company had designed and built an entirely new ventilator, called the "CoVent," since he received a call 10 days ago from UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson. "This new device can be manufactured quickly, efficiently and at volume," Dyson added, saying that the new ventilator has been designed to "address the specific needs" of coronavirus patie
If Dyson doesn't deliver he will be skinned alive, Thanos was a con from the get go run by a sociopath a female version of Trump. Dyson makes shit and has experience with mass production. Like I said I'm watching and it will be a hot topic when more experts have a chance to look at it and that will be soon. I think he makes gimmicks and always have, but right now they are hooking two and four patients up to one ventilator and that is not good at all, or so say the experts.

Donald is gonna be grasping for straws and this is on TV so he's gonna lunge for it to be a hero. Americans might end up testing this thing anyway!
No he won't.

I'd be willing to bet that his contract contains "hold harmless" clauses that protect him from lawsuits. I don't know why you aren't upset that Boris is using this initiative as a smoke screen for his blunders. Instead you keep posting the fake news. I don't get it.
In other words, DIY is sky high about these new-fangled ventilators. Not surprising, he's sky-high excited about anything covid these days. My skeptiscm was met with hostility. It's OK, I'm only aggravated, not offended. In the end, as predicted, none of the new-design ventilators made it through the development cycle in time.



The government commissioned several companies to supply 10,000 brand new ventilators each, awarding contracts to Dyson, defence company Babcock and a Cambridge-based group called Sagentia, a subsidiary of Science Group.

But none of the companies has so far received regulatory approval for new devices.

Dyson’s is the second project to be abandoned, after an effort involving the Renault and Aston Martin Red Bull Formula One teams was stood down due to a change in the specifications set by the government for new devices.

The only group to have secured regulatory approval and supplied ventilators to the NHS in significant numbers is Ventilator Challenge UK, a consortium of manufacturers that focused on scaling up production of proven devices, rather than building new ones.


I'm just posting this to hold DIY accountable for the crap he lays here. Same thing happened with hydoxychloroquine. DIY, let me know if you want me to recap that episode too. Thanks for the signature, btw.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Just posting a follow-up on an earlier conversation. DIY was all breathy and giggly about some nickel-and-dime ventilators that were going to be built in an unheard of time. I was skeptical and our resident attention deficit disorder poster went ballistic. So, here is a recap of the earlier posts with a follow-up about what actually happened:






In other words, DIY is sky high about these new-fangled ventilators. Not surprising, he's sky-high excited about anything covid these days. My skeptiscm was met with hostility. It's OK, I'm only aggravated, not offended. In the end, as predicted, none of the new-design ventilators made it through the development cycle in time.



The government commissioned several companies to supply 10,000 brand new ventilators each, awarding contracts to Dyson, defence company Babcock and a Cambridge-based group called Sagentia, a subsidiary of Science Group.

But none of the companies has so far received regulatory approval for new devices.

Dyson’s is the second project to be abandoned, after an effort involving the Renault and Aston Martin Red Bull Formula One teams was stood down due to a change in the specifications set by the government for new devices.

The only group to have secured regulatory approval and supplied ventilators to the NHS in significant numbers is Ventilator Challenge UK, a consortium of manufacturers that focused on scaling up production of proven devices, rather than building new ones.


I'm just posting this to hold DIY accountable for the crap he lays here. Same thing happened with hydoxychloroquine. DIY, let me know if you want me to recap that episode too. Thanks for the signature, btw.
Ya should have highlighted prescription your motives would be less transparent, childish and vindictive, just like Donald, another mean tweet.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Ya should have highlighted prescription your motives would be less transparent, childish and vindictive, just like Donald, another mean tweet.
I didn't change a thing in your posts. They were dumbshit posts and stand as such all on their own. People who continually flood us with misinformation should at least be held accountable for their words. That's all I'm doing. We'll never know how many lives were lost due to this poor allocation of resources by Boris. It's so obvious that a person sitting thousands of miles away with only their experience in product development and nothing specific to ventilators could see it for what it was. You, on the other hand simply couldn't stop posting the propaganda.

We agree on most things. Just not this. Allow me to me make you out to be the fool that you are when you post crappy shit. You earned it.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I didn't change a thing in your posts. They were dumbshit posts and stand as such all on their own. People who continually flood us with misinformation should at least be held accountable for their words. That's all I'm doing. We'll never know how many lives were lost due to this poor allocation of resources by Boris. It's so obvious that a person sitting thousands of miles away with only their experience in product development and nothing specific to ventilators could see it for what it was. You, on the other hand simply couldn't stop posting the propaganda.

We agree on most things. Just not this. Allow me to me make you out to be the fool that you are when you post crappy shit. You earned it.
Your motives in this are transparently obvious to any intelligent person following the narrative here and you are increasing looking like a fool and bully to many. They look at your posts with a fresh perspective, you don't need to be perceptive for this, or some kind of empath either, just not have your objectivity destroyed by your ego and anger. Your behavior parallels Donald's in many ways, he is an angry egotistical bully too, who constantly mean tweets at his perceived enemies. Donald is digging his own social grave as are you. Many of your "debate opponents have said many stupid things, I guess only those who thwarted you end up in your sig.

Your talents are wasted here, you should be on twitter, along with Donald
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Your motives in this are transparently obvious to any intelligent person following the narrative here and you are increasing looking like a fool and bully to many. They look at your posts with a fresh perspective, you don't need to be perceptive for this, or some kind of empath either, just not have your objectivity destroyed by your ego and anger. Your behavior parallels Donald's in many ways, he is an angry egotistical bully too, who constantly mean tweets at his perceived enemies. Donald is digging his own social grave as are you. Many of your "debate opponents have said many stupid things, I guess only those who thwarted you end up in your sig.

Your talents are wasted here, you should be on twitter, along with Donald
We agree about a lot of things. In addition, I've come to agree that whatever crap you want to throw down on this forum is yours to throw. What more do you want? I mean you were all in with HCQ and when I pointed out it was almost certainly just a Republican propaganda ploy, you went all in promoting it.

When contrary information was given, you doubled and tripled down on your wild ass posts about how great HCQ was. So, now you blame me for holding you to your words? Kind of unfair, isn't it?
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
We agree about a lot of things. In addition, I've come to agree that whatever crap you want to throw down on this forum is yours to throw. What more do you want? I mean you were all in with HCQ and when I pointed out it was almost certainly just a Republican propaganda ploy, you went all in promoting it.

When contrary information was given, you doubled and tripled down on your wild ass posts about how great HCQ was. So, now you blame me for holding you to your words? Kind of unfair, isn't it?
He's one issue, it was out of context the date was not included, it was long before it became politicized and merely a scientific and medical subject in desperate times, places like michigan were giving out die in place orders to guys like @captainmorgan and doctors were prescribing out of desperation and compassion. They have been prescribing it for over 50 years for anybody going to a place where malaria was endemic as a prophylaxis.
I've wasted enough electrons on it here to prove you are disingenuous, its just another way of distorting the truth, pathetic really.

Advising people to talk to their doctors is some kind of high crime in a time of crises, the captain was right to call you a tard and put you on ignore as a pain in the ass. :D
 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I usually ignore most this shit, but 'Michigan die in place orders'?

Bullshit. And you are saying that Fog is the one being disingenuous?
You live in Michigan and at the time there were dire predictions and people like @captainmorgan were searching for info on the subject, we don't usually directly message each other, it's not his style. He said there was no point in people like him going to the hospital, he wouldn't get a ventilator anyway. I was so concerned when he went off for a couple of weeks I PM'd him, Michigan was hot and he was vulnerable. It was essentially a die in place order, the governor issued such a statement I believe and he interpreted it that way. I told him to see his doctor about HCQ, long before any of this bullshit blew up and foggy became hysterical. I like foggy but he's being an asshole about this and behaving like a child. Who the fuck does the arrogant fuck think he is the arbitrator of truth and the site censor? His motives in this matter are transparent and involve behaving like a fool and and having the Captain call him a tard and put him on ignore. Telling someone to see their doctor is not a crime, only a tard would think so!

He's become such a pain in the ass the Captain and I PM on topics of interest to him, foggy thinks he knows better than others and what is good for them, he figures he's the smartest guy on the site, that is arrogance.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I just about fell off my chair when he said send the study to my doctor lol. I would no longer have a doctor lol.
What is the title of the thread you are on? When was it created? What was going on then? What do you think the motives of the person creating it were? Please read the preamble. What do you think foggy's motives are other than a sore asshole? He's been mean tweeting like Donald and similarly motivated, Donald is an asshole too.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
You live in Michigan and at the time there were dire predictions and people like @captainmorgan were searching for info on the subject, we don't usually directly message each other, it's not his style. He said there was no point in people like him going to the hospital, he wouldn't get a ventilator anyway. I was so concerned when he went off for a couple of weeks I PM'd him, Michigan was hot and he was vulnerable. It was essentially a die in place order, the governor issued such a statement I believe and he interpreted it that way. I told him to see his doctor about HCQ, long before any of this bullshit blew up and foggy became hysterical. I like foggy but he's being an asshole about this and behaving like a child. Who the fuck does the arrogant fuck think he is the arbitrator of truth and the site censor? His motives in this matter are transparent and involve behaving like a fool and and having the Captain call him a tard and put him on ignore. Telling someone to see their doctor is not a crime, only a tard would think so!

He's become such a pain in the ass the Captain and I PM on topics of interest to him, foggy thinks he knows better than others and what is good for them, he figures he's the smartest guy on the site, that is arrogance.
So we have these things called telephones. And if you have a doctor/emergancy you could call them. I know it is not the kind of thing that was popular prior to the pandemic. There was no 'die in place order' essiantially or otherwise, that is bullshit that gets spread to scare people.

And I am absolutely floored that you told someone to talk to their doctor about some drug that got popular just because President Trump wanted to push it. Telling someone to contact their doctor is not the same by a mile as planting a drug that is only even a blip on the radar because of Dear Leader's propaganda trolls.

You might consider by having a patient asking about a drug with absolutely zero reason to be mentioned it would put a doctor instantly in a tough spot having to combat internet gossip aimed to help Trump's trust?

Yeah what you did by advertising Trump's snake oil is not the same as asking someone to contact their doctor at all to me either.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
So we have these things called telephones. And if you have a doctor/emergancy you could call them. I know it is not the kind of thing that was popular prior to the pandemic. There was no 'die in place order' essiantially or otherwise, that is bullshit that gets spread to scare people.

And I am absolutely floored that you told someone to talk to their doctor about some drug that got popular just because President Trump wanted to push it. Telling someone to contact their doctor is not the same by a mile as planting a drug that is only even a blip on the radar because of Dear Leader's propaganda trolls.

You might consider by having a patient asking about a drug with absolutely zero reason to be mentioned it would put a doctor instantly in a tough spot having to combat internet gossip aimed to help Trump's trust?

Yeah what you did by advertising Trump's snake oil is not the same as asking someone to contact their doctor at all to me either.
Pre trump before you even cared about it. Doctors make the calls, I trust them so should you, if you went on a trip last year to a place where malaria was endemic, your doctor would have prescribed HCQ in almost all cases as a malaria prophylaxis, though it is used as a treatment too, even if you had a heart condition in many cases. The mortality rate for malaria is atrocious and it claims millions a year, if you get it you're screwed for life, provided you survive, benefits outweigh risks. In fact in some countries where malaria is endemic HCQ without prescription and is as common as aspirin.

You have taken your propaganda war to the wrong place and are wasting your time fighting the wrong person for the wrong reason. This discussion was pre trump and even pre flawed french trial, there was a reason supplies of HCQ were getting low even before Donald and the right knew about it, doctors were prescribing it at the time and apparently it was a crime to post and report about it at the time. My posts on the subject have been balanced and I've posted the bad out comes from trials and even minimised a positive pre trial out of concern about the political situation. I've followed the evidence and I'm not getting ahead of my skis and neither should anybody else, professional ethicists make the calls on ending studies these days and they are starting to speak to some of them now. I was gonna post the who opinion on it but there is too much hysteria around it for rational discussion.
There was a shortage of ventilators at the time and they were telling seniors they would not get one, a death sentence then in the minds of many, fortunately things never turned out as feared in those dark desperate days of Donald fumbling the ball and limited public safety info in the news, there was lot's of panic though as the experts ran around with their fucking hair on fire!

We have wasted enough time on this vindictively motivated topic, I've told foggy to bury the bone, several times. You also know I have addressed this honestly and extensively with articles and timelines to aid your understanding. The Captain perceived it as a die at home order, because at the time some were projecting over capacity that never happened, thank God! Ask him.
 
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