Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Torontokes thread is the bomb. Also interesting to see how some traits will never develope in 12/12.
The far red thread
- Thread starter Rahz
- Start date
wietefras
Well-Known Member
If you are growing lettuce yes.
Like I said above, that video shows that FR does not increase photosynthesis more than other photons and that the reason for extra growth in lettuce is it's shade avoidance.
So if shade avoidance (in case of cannabis that would be stem elongation) is not what you're after, that video clearly indicates not to use FR.
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
With reference to that slide at the timestamp mentioned above? Maybe we should listen to the bonobos foraging beneath dense forest canopy? Bet they enjoy lettuce there.
The publication is behind a paywall, be nice if someone could find a free copy.
wietefras
Well-Known Member
Just continue few minutes further to 21:00. I took this screen cap:
And then we have this study where the outcome supposedly shows that indeed all photons are created equal and that given the same intensity, the spectrum (or at least it's content in blue light) does not matter for Cannabis yields:
Which actually goes totally against his earlier research which showed that warmer light (less blue) produces significantly more yield:
Sensitivity of Seven Diverse Species to Blue and Green Light: Interactions with Photon Flux
Despite decades of research, the effects of spectral quality on plant growth, and development are not well understood. Much of our current understanding comes from studies with daily integrated light levels that are less than 10% of summer sunlight thus making it difficult to characterize...
Although that was not on cannabis, but anything but leafy greens show clearly less growth with more blue in the spectrum:
It even goes against his own remarks earlier in that video where he states that red photons are 15% more efficient for photosynthesis.
So yeah, there is a lot of contradictory conclusions coming out from his studies. Or at the very least his evidence is incomplete. Maybe the blue content doesn't matter, but is the red the same in all those test cases? Or perhaps his veg stage (where all plants are put under the same light) is what caused the plants to be more receptive to blue light? etc etc etc.
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
Well, the better quantum efficiency of red vs blue is because a higher nm photon needs more energy to be created in the first place...
So the diode PUMP is more efficient OR there is less loss from absorption due to less coating.
Furthermore, this is also the reason why Far Red 730nm is so efficient, it (a) needs less energy PLUS (b) triggers the Emersoneffect even an additional help - and Bugbee offers both the experimental proof plus explains the theory behind it.
He also ventures on to illustrate that diff species can respond also difftly to FR, understandably in the apical dominance trait or different strategies to veg and capture light.
Anyway... in REGARD to photosynthesis it doesnt matter for the reaction center what wavelength the photon is - itll do the job likewise. But blue holds MORE energy as required - which transfers to heat and is the loss of efficiency (or harvest - and your last pic prooves that)
So the diode PUMP is more efficient OR there is less loss from absorption due to less coating.
Furthermore, this is also the reason why Far Red 730nm is so efficient, it (a) needs less energy PLUS (b) triggers the Emersoneffect even an additional help - and Bugbee offers both the experimental proof plus explains the theory behind it.
He also ventures on to illustrate that diff species can respond also difftly to FR, understandably in the apical dominance trait or different strategies to veg and capture light.
Anyway... in REGARD to photosynthesis it doesnt matter for the reaction center what wavelength the photon is - itll do the job likewise. But blue holds MORE energy as required - which transfers to heat and is the loss of efficiency (or harvest - and your last pic prooves that)
salmonetin
Well-Known Member
...es curioso como se interpretan o se deducen cosas viendo los videos...
...cada uno saca sus conclusiones... si te crees que tienes toda la razon... segun mi pov vas mal...
...quizas no ves todo el conjunto... o te saltas partes...
...la critica debe empezar por uno mismo.... despues de uno mismo vienen todo los demas...
...autocriticate antes de criticar... buen slogan para una camisa...
Saludos
.
...cada uno saca sus conclusiones... si te crees que tienes toda la razon... segun mi pov vas mal...
...quizas no ves todo el conjunto... o te saltas partes...
...la critica debe empezar por uno mismo.... despues de uno mismo vienen todo los demas...
...autocriticate antes de criticar... buen slogan para una camisa...
Saludos
.
captainmorgan
Well-Known Member
I've been using 730nm for 7+ years as a phytochrome trigger and never found any other noticeable advantage of using it during lights on except to induce stretch, never understood why people were adding it to their main lights. Using it as a trigger shortens flower time and it can be used to increase yield by lengthening the lights on time up to 14/10. I think the same kind of thing is going on with added 660nm, everyone is adding it but I prefer my red peak to be closer to 630nm tho I think widening the red peak by adding some 660nm is beneficial.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Wrong way around but i understand: reds have less energy but higher nm than blues.
The far reds have also been quoted as adding heat to cannopy, not sure how and why... Close to IR?
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
This is very interesting and i actually got some strips made on similar suspicion: half 630 half 660.
Ive also theorized regarding red peaks, if plants have linear response to different reds or if plants will react mainly to the strongest red in the spectrum.
Have you made any observations re red peaks? 630 vers 660? Ive seen you quote biomass for 630; would you add 630 to vegg light?
Having had really good results with 90cri flowering im really keen on knowing more of 630
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
generally all photons of "light" create heat when they are absorbed by matter. Just that the energy required for photosythesis PS substracts from this energy (resulting in lesser heating up).
Furthermore, the photons of visible light are reflected by matter much more easily (with less loss) while IR transfers most of its energy to the matter it falls upon (thus, more heat [with less energy!])
However, the above said downright ignores the Emerson Effect. Id like to know more about this, esp. at which wavelength (780nm?) an IR photon lacks energy to not being able to further excite the PS reactioncentre I (perhaps @Randomblame could chime in here...?)
its good because of the fluorescent effect. If the 630 gets deflected youll the photon at a higher nm penetrating deeper into the canopy.
I've seen a chart somewhere depicting this fluor. effect, its one of the reasons why HPS has such a good penetrating light.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
I would very much like to see that if you can share. Its interesting as its similar to how uv has been quoted to me: uva protects and sort of butters up the plant to take the uvb with less damage.
This would make a really good case for 90cri+660.
Kassiopeija
Well-Known Member
unfortunately, this is all I have (the graphic is from RIU somewhere) so I can't even say what/who the booktitle/author is, but it looks like it's from a college-grade learning book (guess)
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
Examples abound of different lights working for growers with and without added reds. The cultivars might hit go-slow mode if they get generic 4K, or just too much of any light. But by and large there are lots of happy growers out there using a range of generic whites.
People are adding 660 as a readily available substitute for 680, alongside 730 for emmerson effect. Manufacturers are seemingly adding 660 combined with higher lumen/watt CCT in a race to to offer the most electrically efficient fixtures. Using the best bins is not a reflection of the best light just the best efficiency, unless only photons for watts count.
730 + other nm's added to main lights seems to tick boxes for some growers. Like this example here. Low watts/sq ft. Using 561C's too.
I bet a lot of people feel the same way as you about adding 630 and some 660. I have a fixation on emmerson effect, Pr/Pfr and ratio of red to far red.
salmonetin
Well-Known Member
...red 630 to red 660 ratio...
...red 630 to far red 730 ratio...
...red 660 to far red 730 ratio...
...red to blue... hay varios azules...
red to uv....
red to white... los calidos los neutros los frioss...
..a lot of missing ratios men....
Pd.... el capitan los usa como trigger... o sea controlando tiempo y potencia....
...tenemos potencia.... ...luego lo que falta es mas control de tiempo y potencia y cuando y como usar el far red... lo del cuando como donde de que manera ...de toda la vida
...un controlador de iluminacion... ayuda a experimentar segun mi pov pero no es camino barato....
PD 2.... a mi me gusta mas la vision de las plantas con rojos tambien.... estaria flipado con un video acelerado del principio a fin de una planta con la idea infragram.... me gusta mas el uso de los fr rojos near ir rojos que le dan las camaras.....
no es una via cara... hoy en dia tienes camaras 4k baratas ....juas ya veo hasta 8k .... pal que pueda ... mejor que tener que usar un sensor controlador etc.... segun mi pov... y lo tienes grabado a posteridad... ahora podras probar mas cosillas entendiendo sus colores...
...lo del sensor yo prefiero un espectroradiometro pues estan involucrados muchos mas ratios y colores a seguir...
...sensor de rojos sensor de infrarrojos sensor de uv .... sensor de par ...de par extendido...
pero ninguno barato.... la idea de infragram la veo mas accesible a la gente en general....
Saludos
...red 630 to far red 730 ratio...
...red 660 to far red 730 ratio...
...red to blue... hay varios azules...
red to uv....
red to white... los calidos los neutros los frioss...
..a lot of missing ratios men....
Pd.... el capitan los usa como trigger... o sea controlando tiempo y potencia....
...tenemos potencia.... ...luego lo que falta es mas control de tiempo y potencia y cuando y como usar el far red... lo del cuando como donde de que manera ...de toda la vida
...un controlador de iluminacion... ayuda a experimentar segun mi pov pero no es camino barato....
PD 2.... a mi me gusta mas la vision de las plantas con rojos tambien.... estaria flipado con un video acelerado del principio a fin de una planta con la idea infragram.... me gusta mas el uso de los fr rojos near ir rojos que le dan las camaras.....
no es una via cara... hoy en dia tienes camaras 4k baratas ....juas ya veo hasta 8k .... pal que pueda ... mejor que tener que usar un sensor controlador etc.... segun mi pov... y lo tienes grabado a posteridad... ahora podras probar mas cosillas entendiendo sus colores...
Infragram: online infrared image analysis
Public Lab's online, open source service for generating plant health analyses from near-infrared imagery.
infragram.org
...lo del sensor yo prefiero un espectroradiometro pues estan involucrados muchos mas ratios y colores a seguir...
...sensor de rojos sensor de infrarrojos sensor de uv .... sensor de par ...de par extendido...
pero ninguno barato.... la idea de infragram la veo mas accesible a la gente en general....
Saludos
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Moflow
Well-Known Member
http://www.outline-of-knowledge.info/OKD/1/Consciousness/Speculations/Sensation/Mathematics/Color/harmonic ratios and color.html
Link doesn't appear to work
but an interesting read lol
harmonic ratios and color
Tone and color frequencies and wavelengths have harmonic ratios {harmonic ratios, color}.
harmonics
Harmonic ratios have small integers in numerator and denominator. In increasing order of denominator, harmonic ratios are 1:1, 2:1, 3:2, 4:3, 5:3, 5:4, and so on.
color wavelengths
The purest red color is at light wavelength 683 nm, with orange at 608 nm, yellow at 583 nm, green at 543 nm, cyan at 500 nm, blue at 463 nm, and violet at 408 nm. Magenta can be at 380 nm or 760 nm.
Link doesn't appear to work
but an interesting read lolharmonic ratios and color
Tone and color frequencies and wavelengths have harmonic ratios {harmonic ratios, color}.
harmonics
Harmonic ratios have small integers in numerator and denominator. In increasing order of denominator, harmonic ratios are 1:1, 2:1, 3:2, 4:3, 5:3, 5:4, and so on.
color wavelengths
The purest red color is at light wavelength 683 nm, with orange at 608 nm, yellow at 583 nm, green at 543 nm, cyan at 500 nm, blue at 463 nm, and violet at 408 nm. Magenta can be at 380 nm or 760 nm.
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Hi guy's , I'm new here , I've been read this thread for the last week , so I decide to added to my fixture a few 730 nm to EOD treatment , I got 8 cheap star 730nm diodes ,I will be run then on APC12 700, the information for the vendor says 1,8v 700ma max , so I ghess they have 30% effecient , so they probaly have 7,2 w rigth? 7,2w x 30% = 2, 16 p/w x 5,5QER =11,88p/w /0,97 sqm (my area) =12,2 p/w -20% wall losses = 9,7p/w /4.000 umols = 412 s /6 - 7 min , it is right? if it's I should use the all 6-7 mim after lights out or use for example 3 ,30min before and 3,30 after for the EOD treatment ? thanks , nice knowleged on this thread.
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
Nice link.
Public lab also has diy spectrometer guide, but do not see utility as although we could use such a tool to detect presence of light wavelengths the project provides no means of calibration. So quantity or intensity cannot be recorded.
SpectralWorkbench
An open source spectral library and DIY spectrometry community developing environmental testing techniques.
spectralworkbench.org
Think one of the best tools we already have is in "The Maths behind" thread.
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
Have not double checked your maths, but for simplicitys sake would say use the 6mins from lights out withought trying to straddle 3 mins either side of the main lights off. Right after lights off has reportedly worked for others here.
salmonetin
Well-Known Member
....thinking in plants ...the uv cams we can help us too......y las thermal cams help us too....Nice link.
Public lab also has diy spectrometer guide, but do not see utility as although we could use such a tool to detect presence of light wavelengths the project provides no means of calibration. So quantity or intensity cannot be recorded.
SpectralWorkbench
An open source spectral library and DIY spectrometry community developing environmental testing techniques.
Think one of the best tools we already have is in "The Maths behind" thread.
...esas tan de moda ahora con el COVID...lo bueno es que estas ultimas bajaran de precio....
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/11/12/1401/htm
Saludos
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wietefras
Well-Known Member
They tell you to calibrate wavelengths using a CFL, because of it's know peaks. Then you can "calibrate" intensity by using a know light source. Like with one of those tungsten calibration bulbs.Public lab also has diy spectrometer guide, but do not see utility as although we could use such a tool to detect presence of light wavelengths the project provides no means of calibration. So quantity or intensity cannot be recorded.
I checked an Osram the 730nm led and this looked to actually peak around 715nm.