10-30-20 or 10-50-30 for flower?

90'sStoner

Well-Known Member
Most annual flowering plants die from the top down. That means they yellow from the top not the bottom.




Leaves are going to go yellow and die eventually. Cannabis is an annual flowering plant meaning it grows, flowers, produces seeds, and dies. The seeds start that process again. But because its flowering is also triggered by photoperiod it can be kept growing for years by manipulating the light hours to prevent it from flowering as is possible with thousands of other plants.

The leaves will yellow naturally on their own even if you're still feeding them up until the end because the plant is coming to the end of it's life cycle.

All too often what you see are plants weeks out from being done with yellow leaves that lack chlorophyll and are unable to produce the energy the flowers need to reach their full potential. That's caused by growers that switch to flower and seem obsessed with no N and more P/K. Then they start flushing weeks before the plant is close to being ready to harvest. The entire plant still needs nitrogen even in flower as it needs P/K. It's needed for too many plant functions to list. Yet right when those functions are the most important the plant is deprived by a nutrient it needs. It's like people are trying to make their plants leaves turn yellow.

Here's some examples of what I mean.

These plants were grown outside in 3 gallon pots of soil which are small to begin with. They were fed only a couple times with the rest of the watering being straight from the hose. They still had about 4 weeks left yet all the leaves are yellow from lack of nitrogen plus other nutrients. I have no doubt that had these plants been fed properly they would have produced 25 - 35% more bud by weight.





Here's some plants fed until the end. The leaves are yellowing because the plants are coming to the end of their life cycle. The leaves are yellowing more at the top than the bottom. Nitrogen is a mobile nutrient so if those leaves needed the nitrogen they would take it and the bottom leaves would go yellow first. As with most flowering annual plants the flowers will die off before all of the foliage. The plant will stop taking nitrogen when it doesn't need it anymore.

If you feed properly the plant will yellow on it's own when it's time. There is no need to force it. If you don't overfeed you'll always have healthy plants that will change on their own based on what stage they are in their lifecycle.

This is my grow, just top dressed at week 5. Still 4 or 5 to go. Got a close up of the girl with the most fade
 

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getogrow

Well-Known Member
This is my grow, just top dressed at week 5. Still 4 or 5 to go. Got a close up of the girl with the most fade
Thats a lil too early for a fade in my opinoin and of course genetics may play a part. Those couple that are worse , need more food. Thats beyond fade and is eating itself at this point. Your on the right track though! keep it up! great fuckin job bud!
 

.Smoke

Well-Known Member
I use a ratio of about 1-1-2 in flower (or 10-10-20 if you prefer). In veg, ~3-1-4.

Flower:

View attachment 4611140

Veg:

View attachment 4611142
Nice.

Thanks to the help of @TintEastwood I'm running a new formula for my current grow (hempy perlite/vermiculite) that's a mix of the new 1 part Megacrop blended with a diluted Lucas Formula no CalMag.
Numbers are...
1-1.4-1.75 /89 Ca/49 S

Going to try and run it the whole cycle like Lucas and see what happens. Seeds just popped so data will be logged in journal as things progress.
 
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spek9

Well-Known Member
Thanks to the help of @TintEastwood I'm running a new formula for my current grow (hempy perlite/vermiculite) that's a mix of the new 1 part Megacrop blended with a diluted Lucas Formula no CalMag.
Numbers are...
1-1.4-1.75 /89 Ca/49 S

Going to try and run it the whole cycle like Lucas and see what happens. Seeds just popped so data will be logged in journal as things progress.
I always see Ca deficiency show up if its below 100 PPM, so keep your eyes peeled for a Ca def specifically. Mind you, the water I use is only 65 PPM, so that puts me behind the 8-ball from the start.
 

.Smoke

Well-Known Member
I always see Ca deficiency show up if its below 100 PPM, so keep your eyes peeled for a Ca def specifically. Mind you, the water I use is only 65 PPM, so that puts me behind the 8-ball from the start.
Will do. Have had to deal deficiency before so will keep a close eye on it.

I'm running RO water for the first time on a whole run also, so I'm sure I'll be "hovering" over them more so than usual.

At least its 2 plants and not 12 this time... :)
Honestly though, I'll probably throw in 2ml just to make sure...
 

spek9

Well-Known Member
Will do. Have had to deal deficiency before so will keep a close eye on it.

I'm running RO water for the first time on a whole run also, so I'm sure I'll be "hovering" over them more so than usual.

At least its 2 plants and not 12 this time... :)
Honestly though, I'll probably throw in 2ml just to make sure...
Yeah, RO removes everything, including all Ca and Mg, so these two you'll need to keep your eyes on for sure.
 

TintEastwood

Well-Known Member
Will do. Have had to deal deficiency before so will keep a close eye on it.

I'm running RO water for the first time on a whole run also, so I'm sure I'll be "hovering" over them more so than usual.

At least its 2 plants and not 12 this time... :)
Honestly though, I'll probably throw in 2ml just to make sure...
Yeah...the Ca. PIA.
I'm in coco with its funky Ca/K cation BS. Lol

Hopefully you will be all good in the hempy.
 

90'sStoner

Well-Known Member
Thats a lil too early for a fade in my opinoin and of course genetics may play a part. Those couple that are worse , need more food. Thats beyond fade and is eating itself at this point. Your on the right track though! keep it up! great fuckin job bud!
Cheers man, I top dressed em a day or 2 ago and added some chicken manure (which I usually wouldnt) hoping they densen up a bit more than usual
 

DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
Too many people go out of their way to cut out N while in flower when the plant still needs N in flower. Without nitrogen the plant can't produce chlorophyll which is required for the process of photosynthesis to occur. It also is used for nutrient uptake and believe it or not is used in the production of flowers. The fade with yellow leaves at harvest that some people think is is normal is actually a plant that has been starved of what it needs to reach maximum yield.
It's also the most overfed Macro element in the flower stage and will cause buds to not reach their full potential.
It's more common to see plants being overfed nitrogen than underfed it.

In general horticulture it's an established practice to switch to flower specific ratios or ingredients and cut out the high N products such as bloodmeal etc, yet in hydro a lot of nutes come packed with too much N to be fed at the EC levels some people are feeding at.

You can dose a plant on a 2.0EC feed strength if most of it is made of calcium, magnesium, micros and THEN base, but going to that strength in flower with a nitrogen base enough to support veg growth, which a lot of bloom feeds have in them, will see you burn your plants and seriously impact your final crop in more ways than just dry weight.

It's true that people stop feeding too early a lot of time, but that's due to all of it's nutrients being cut off, not just Nitrogen.
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
It's also the most overfed Macro element in the flower stage and will cause buds to not reach their full potential.
It's more common to see plants being overfed nitrogen than underfed it.
I have to disagree. The most overused element i see being used is P. Going by this website, N is way under used. This website has folks scared to death to put N in their diet at bloom time. That is the only reason i use xsto's quote as my sig. If you want to back off nutes , that is fine, if you want to cut down the N , that is fine but know what and why before you do it.
 

DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
I have to disagree. The most overused element i see being used is P. Going by this website, N is way under used. This website has folks scared to death to put N in their diet at bloom time. That is the only reason i use xsto's quote as my sig. If you want to back off nutes , that is fine, if you want to cut down the N , that is fine but know what and why before you do it.
P is much more benign in the flower stage than N. You'll get a better finish with yellowing plants underfed nitrogen than you will plants overfed it. It's the only element which can compleely fuck the quality of your harvest. Keeping your plants green is not the priority when you're at peak bloom. Getting the fullest buds is.

There are plenty of examples of plants overfed with nitrogen on here and plenty of other forums. You don't have to look far to find them
 

getogrow

Well-Known Member
P is much more benign in the flower stage than N. You'll get a better finish with yellowing plants underfed nitrogen than you will plants overfed it. It's the only element which can compleely fuck the quality of your harvest. Keeping your plants green is not the priority when you're at peak bloom. Getting the fullest buds is.

There are plenty of examples of plants overfed with nitrogen on here and plenty of other forums. You don't have to look far to find them
Thats not my point sir. my point is they cannot survive without N in any stage of life. We as growers tend to cut back on N towards the end. No big deal and the ones who cut it off completely are running with whats leftover in the soil. All i am saying is that if you were to water an inert medium with zero N at the beginning of flower then your going to have problems later.
overfeeding with N is a huge mistake in flower. i agree with most of that. I still stand by P and K as being the number one and two overused nutes because "they make the buds bigger" RIU has most thinking N is bad for buds. i dont like that misinfo.
"Fading" is one thing but dying is another.....thats my only debate. Faded from low N vs Dead from no N. or even lack of yield from no N.
 

DukeFluke

Well-Known Member
I believe Ca is much more benign in the flower stage then P. So is N and K if im not mistaken.

No, N is not benign. It will have a serious effect in the flowering stage to the point where it will ruin a crop.

A plant can take the required nitrogen from its stores during the final week of bloom where it is just swelling out the calyxes. By that point you have built the yield you are going to get anyway and nothing short of a major fuckup will change much by then. In that instance, a plant isn't being starved of nitrogen, it's just using up what's readily available to it.

You can trial this for yourself any time.... A yellowing plant can finish with solid swelled calyxes, while a dark green plant with a high percentage of nitrogen as it's finishing feed can finish airy and with a high leaf to bud ratio. If it was true that nitrogen was a building block even in the final stages then this wouldn't be the case.
 
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