Lightleak on QB’s
- Thread starter dendroaspis
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PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Because timers which aren't meant for LEDs do let trickle amounts of current through, just enough to keep the timer powered. That small current seems to be enough to activate the driver. Get a timer specifically rated for LEDs.
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dendroaspis
Active Member
I had to leave my friends place. will go back tomorrow to check.
dbz
Well-Known Member
As an aside if any of your plugs aren't polarized (they should be, because hopefully it is grounded) basically meaning you can only plug it in one way (it only fits into the outlet one way) then you could turn it around and plug it in the other way.
Timers work fine with LEDs, the thing is they generally are single pole switches.
With Alternating current you have a hot and neutral. So the timers are designed to switch off the hot side, not both sides.
When something is turned on, the hot goes into the device and then it alternates with the neutral becoming hot as well between the two. Which is why most modern appliances, it doesn't matter how you plug them in, and you can run an outlet backwards for years with the neutral on the hot terminal and the hot on the neutral terminal. Much like very old table lamps IF they are reversed and you try to use a timer on it, then some current leaks through to the LED, and because it is LED it doesn't take much. Which is why if you plug an HID into the same outlet you won't notice the same effect even though it is still wired wrong because not enough current leaks through to turn on the HID at all (but it is still leaking through on a timer).
So when you correct the wiring and have the hot wire on the correct terminal of the outlet, then your problems will magically disappear. In the US plugs were polarized so that they would only go in one way (one blade fatter than the other) in Europe plugs aren't polarized, but a grounded timer will make sure to have the hot side on the corresponding side to hot, to make sure the switch in the timer works. So no matter where you are with AC, if this is reversed and you use 99 percent of timers you will have this issue. It can be very confusing because another appliance won't turn on at all (it isn't getting enough current) but leds require very little current to glow.
You can use a multimeter or a number of tools here to test the outlet to see which wire is hot and neutral wired to the outlet. Then the color of the terminals on the outlet should let you know whether or not it is attached in the right spot. If they are attached in the right spot but the hot is still reversed with the neutral according to readings, then it has been reversed in an outlet prior to the one you are looking at, or in a junction box somewhere etc.
Just as a note because some seem sensitive of the subject: technically there is no polarity per-se in AC currents. Polarity is DC positive and negative. There is no positive and negative in AC.
Timers work fine with LEDs, the thing is they generally are single pole switches.
With Alternating current you have a hot and neutral. So the timers are designed to switch off the hot side, not both sides.
When something is turned on, the hot goes into the device and then it alternates with the neutral becoming hot as well between the two. Which is why most modern appliances, it doesn't matter how you plug them in, and you can run an outlet backwards for years with the neutral on the hot terminal and the hot on the neutral terminal. Much like very old table lamps IF they are reversed and you try to use a timer on it, then some current leaks through to the LED, and because it is LED it doesn't take much. Which is why if you plug an HID into the same outlet you won't notice the same effect even though it is still wired wrong because not enough current leaks through to turn on the HID at all (but it is still leaking through on a timer).
So when you correct the wiring and have the hot wire on the correct terminal of the outlet, then your problems will magically disappear. In the US plugs were polarized so that they would only go in one way (one blade fatter than the other) in Europe plugs aren't polarized, but a grounded timer will make sure to have the hot side on the corresponding side to hot, to make sure the switch in the timer works. So no matter where you are with AC, if this is reversed and you use 99 percent of timers you will have this issue. It can be very confusing because another appliance won't turn on at all (it isn't getting enough current) but leds require very little current to glow.
You can use a multimeter or a number of tools here to test the outlet to see which wire is hot and neutral wired to the outlet. Then the color of the terminals on the outlet should let you know whether or not it is attached in the right spot. If they are attached in the right spot but the hot is still reversed with the neutral according to readings, then it has been reversed in an outlet prior to the one you are looking at, or in a junction box somewhere etc.
Just as a note because some seem sensitive of the subject: technically there is no polarity per-se in AC currents. Polarity is DC positive and negative. There is no positive and negative in AC.
Gorillaglue4u
Well-Known Member
I have the same issue with the 650r i called they said it was because my cheap timer i have on a 220v line they said i needed a dual pole timer.
dendroaspis
Active Member
Did that help?
Gorillaglue4u
Well-Known Member
Never changed it out but that came directly from hlg when i called them. Its not enough light to effect anything
dendroaspis
Active Member
dendroaspis
Active Member
I see, well with my friend the plant started revegging.. so I’m quite keen to sort this out.. there where two other issues I took care of aswell. But its very weird because in her previous two grows this didn’t happen.
dbz
Well-Known Member
If you have a 4 wire 220/240 US then you would need a dual pole timer. An European 230 is still just hot neutral ground, and it would be a reversed wiring issue and any standard timer should work (esp mechanical).
I would think though a 220/240 US timer which I honestly have no experience with, would cut off both hots.
Really! I have seen the same problem as yours before but the little bit of light leak we are talking about did not effect their plants in any way. Interesting that a reveg is happening to yours.
dendroaspis
Active Member
Like I said there where to other very small light leaks.. maybe the combo of those three was enough to send it over the edge. Also, the previous two runs had no problems.. only difference is two more QB’s with lightleak. But who knows.. just trying to resolve it now. Hopefully have some quality buds for her in the future.
dendroaspis
Active Member
Yeah, I didn't word that right. I was referring to the comment "I'd venture to say it's a driver issue, not shutting down". It's not a driver issue, has to be an electronic timer leaking current to the driver or the house wiring. A driver can't deliver any power to the LED if the driver isn't getting some AC power.Because timers which aren't meant for LEDs do let trickle amounts of current through, just enough to keep the timer powered. That small current seems to be enough to activate the driver. Get a timer specifically rated for LEDs.
Can LED bulbs be used with a timer? Timer Switch for LED,energy saving CFLs & - mydome Home Security
Why do Timer switches not work with CFL.s or LEDs, How to stop lights flashing with a timer switch, A timer for your LED bulbs.
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
I don't understand how you can say all timers work fine with LEDs in one sentence, and then go on to say that they don't work fine with reverse polarity. I guess I'm a bit confused about how you think the current can only sneak through the timer if the hot and neutral are swapped, but not if it's wired correctly. As you said, there is technically no polarity with AC, and I would assume that even with the hot and neutral swapped, a properly working timer is still either an open or closed switch.
dbz
Well-Known Member
Some electrical timers may let leak through regardless. However as I was trying to say earlier. The switches in a mechanical timer are on the hot leg. If the outlet is wired correctly, when the hot is switched off there is no need for a double pole switch. There is no "reverse polarity" per-se. It is a swapping of the hot and neutral. AC works by the current alternating, the neutral is wired back to the ground bar, when the hot is switched off and it is wired correctly there is no current on the neutral then so you don't need a double pole switch. If you go down to your breaker box and look at it for instance. You will notice that the hot (generally black, sometimes blue or red) is wired into the breaker, if you remove this, then there is no electricity on the circuit. If you flip the breaker which just turns off the hot leg, there is no electricity on the circuit. Same thing with a single pole switch in a timer. If however the neutral is wired hot, then the switch does allow through because it isn't a double pole switch.
The reason I am so quick to this, is because I experienced it myself. I tried 4 different timers before I checked my wiring. Light leaks through all of them. Then I checked my wiring. As I said above due to most mechanical and electric timers being single pole switches (for the hot leg), when reversed that I had light leaks. When the wiring was corrected every timer worked without any current "leaking".
As a note, this is also a shock hazard. Consider a toaster with a single pole switch, if the outlet has reversed the neutral and the hot, then the toaster will always have electricity in it waiting to be connected to ground. If say you then stick a knife in the toaster to get your english muffin out, and it comes in contact with the heating element then you will ground the live hot circuit and complete it and get shocked with the full 120 or 230v. If the single pole switch toaster is wired correctly, then when it is off, there is no electricity going to the heating element and no risk of shock.
Even with LED's when there is this issue, if you were to come in contact with the wiring while it is switched off with reversed hot and neutral...say on the driver..then you would fully complete the circuit because you are in contact with the ground.
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dendroaspis
Active Member
this is on full dimmode
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Caliverner
Well-Known Member
I have a Mrs hydro 2000 that does the same thing
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
I do have a general understanding of AC, but I guess what I'm not understanding is how the current leaks through with the hot and neutral swapped even if it's a single pole switch. How is the circuit complete and allowing electrons to pass if the switch is open? Are you saying it's trickling through the ground?
I'm not saying that you're wrong, and that in your case it wasn't a real issue, but I do stand by my previous statement that not all timers are made for LED fixtures, and that making sure that your timer is rated for LEDs should prolly be at the top of your checklist.
Certainly it's possible to easily wire AC backwards, and not realize, but I would hope that any certified electrician would wire a house properly in the first place. As @1212ham pointed out a $5 outlet tester will give the quick answer on that piece, and is certainly worth the $5 investment to add that tool to your kit, if you don't already have one.