THC, CBD, Terpene test results – UVA vs UVB vs none

Humple

Well-Known Member
So we all know that sunlight is not static. If you are not a botanist, like me, then you tend to rely on correlation. For example, if we see cannabis growing and evolving in high-UV areas – which it does and did – and we know that UV breaks down cannabinoids and we have also read scientific theories that cannabinoids evolved as a way to protect the plants from UV and plant pests, then it might seem obvious that more UV is beneficial.

But the question is, UV spans quite a wide range from around 280nm for UVB to 400nm. So should we give our plants the same ratio as the sun (small amounts of UVB grading to larger amounts of UVA), or is it enough to give them part of that spectrum to get the desired results? And what about the end-grower? Does he or she need to manage that UV by using stronger wavelengths (UVB) with timers to again mimic the sun (UVB is a bell curve that is highest at midday in summer) or is it sufficient to apply a small amount of weaker UV (UVA. near-UV) over a 12-hour period to prevent the risk of UV damage to their plants and make life easier for the grower to manage?

Now let's look at the red spectrum. Should we be providing more red to mimic the sun during autumn when cannabis flowers? Do we recognise that the sun is typically "redder" at the equator where cannabis evolved because the atmosphere is thicker around the equator? Do sativas respond better to red light for this reason compared to indicas which evolved in mountainous regions where the atmosphere is thinner, so there is more blue as well as UV in the spectrum?

Are we going around in circles with the "red for flowering, blue for quality" argument again? :wall: < Joke

As far as I am aware, NASA tried to answer this question with their spectrum tests in the 80s that are still ongoing. The objective was to create the highest yield with the least amount of energy. That meant lots of red light (least amount of energy to produce). But plants did not grow very well under just red light, so blue was added. This was better but as the pants grew, wouldn't it be better to have a bit of light reflecting into the lower canopy? Like green?

This is pretty much what happened, and so the results of at least one NASA test (and I believe there were more, but the link below provides a good start) found a ratio of B=15% G=25% R=60% and a small amount of FR provided the best dry yields.

This is the NASA test and a great comparison of different lighting results on lettuce for anyone interested: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170010694.pdf

The only issue is this is lettuce, not flowering cannabis – as you have already pointed out Humple. But maybe we could all to point to the leaf areas of those tests and say "Hey, bigger leaf surface area = more photosynthesis = more yield" and that was what the results proved. So shouldn't a plant that produces flowers also be able to use a larger leaf surface area to provide energy for flowering? If that is the case then the photomorphogenic response to red (bigger, thinner leaves, longer stems and petioles that allow light to filter through the whole canopy) would be desired.

Who knows, maybe that is why mother nature also provides more red during flower. Or is it the other way around? That plants simply evolved that way because that's how mother nature works? See, we can still learn a lot from mother nature. That doesn't mean exactly mimicking the sun IMO but using lessons learned from how plants respond to different forms of sunlight at different times of day and year and in different parts of the world to make growing as efficient as possible. I think that's what NASA is also trying to do.
Well said. And I don't disagree. These are the questions to be asked and answered, and there's no doubt your High Light boards are a great addition to that conversation. I think you guys have come up with an ingenious approach to UV, to say nothing of the convenience of having everything on a single board. That still doesn't convince me that we've arrived at an optimum spectrum balance (not that you're claiming it's the be-all, end-all in the first place), but it's nonetheless a worthy entry to the field. Appreciate the dialogue, by the way!
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Sometimes it comes down to practicalities. We have not built a heavy UVB lamp, but I'm sure there would be added expense not just with the UV LEDs and their short lifespan, but possibly getting it through health authorities. Perhaps ~295nm is the most efficient or can trigger certain photomorphogenic response, but if we can do the same or at least similar with other wavelengths, that would be more practical and cost-efficient.

Sometimes you just have to draw a line in the sand and say "This is the best compromise for the price and for most growers who do not wish to have multiple timers and light sources and spend an extraordinary amount of time managing every facet of their grow". You guys are right there already playing with this stuff but in my dealings with average growers the majority just want good yields, good quality and to set and forget their lights so they can get on with other things. Sorry, this wasn't really addressing your post I just made a comment. Apologies.
Lol no worries I guess we can agree to disagree.
 
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ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
The Osram Oslon are one of the most efficient 620/630nm diodes and they have typical efficiency of 57%. We have calculated other 620 and 630nm diodes around the 55-56% mark. That is almost the same efficiency that we are getting with our Nichia V3F1 CRI90 2700K. If we used CRI90 3500K we would get less 620, but the diode efficiency increases. I think it goes 55% for 2700K, 56% for 3000K and 57% for 3500K all in CRI90. So for the High Light board we decided to use the most efficient CRI90 LEDs we could find, which were the Nichias, and use them instead of a blend of CRI70 or CRI80 and monos.

Here is the Osram I am talking about. You should calculate about 57% typical efficiency for these: https://www.osram.com/ecat/OSLON® SSL 120 GA CSSPM1.23/com/en/class_pim_web_catalog_103489/global/prd_pim_device_2402546/

We do know that everything comes down to available flux bins and that was another reason to go with Nichia. They give us very good (top-tier) flux bins and Osram tends to blend their top bins in each lot and offer them as a range, so the average is a bit lower. That was the thinking at the time of design. Things change and maybe we will do something different later on.
Haha yes Osram makes a good one.
 
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2com

Well-Known Member
We use HPS for bigger grows bloom (really want to try CMH, just haven't yet), and LED (blend of 2700K 3500K 6500K UV, a few mono reds on some tent boards) for tent blooms atm, I supplement UV by way of reptile bulbs in the tents and don't supplement UV for the HPS. Until my project is finished this is what we'll be using. I veg everything under LED 6500K for bigger grows, and (~3000K + 6500k) for tents. Not running any EOD FR atm or any FR supplemental. I want to try all sorts of things and dont think these are the primo SPDs to mimic, just what works until I can play with spectrum more easily.

I think the highligt boards do a good job of valueing a wide SPD. I think the added NUV is awesome, I think the wider R into FR is also beneficial. I think the photon efficacy is very good especially when you take into account the extra short WV included in the SPD. I think the chip count is good as it improves lifespan, efficiency, and spread (size). Ill continue to reccomend.

I think 480nm is important based on my reading but don't really know as I'm not a botanist. Theres only a few chips that value 480nm that I know of atm, most all others have a dip in this region. 480nm is hard to produce for mono or for PC and either one has crap efficiency. The LM302n, or the 5K opti, or the Marubeni 5k, all have poor efficiency. The best cyan mono I can find is like 42% efficiency, the 505nm is really bad (25%) :shock: Lol

I think UVB is important but I also think UVA is important, but again I'm not a botanist. Just based on experience and the literature.

I think IR is something of a wild card and really the only WV that LED can't mimic atm. With IR your LST increases without your ambient. This is significant imo and has implications to VPD (which I have some opinions on as well lol, essentially I think localized leaf VPD is different than above canopy VPD) and maybe other plant processes as well???
hey Im just a homegrower vegging on 0,64qm and flowering in 1.44m^2. I did ran a 600w MH + HPS for several winters. Then changing some stuff, currently its
4*75w 3590 Cree 3500k plus 20*730nm 12*400nm, at center HID either 250w HPS or 600w MH.
Vegging tent is currently MH HPS combo with extra sidelighting e27 variable colors...

my future is to build a LED for this, in a smaller tent the heat from the HIDs hit more... thats why I became interested in chips, wavelength and photo receptors. still trying to absorb all the information...
Thank you both for the details.
When you guys are listing these multiple different K temps that you incorporate and use, are you mostly talking about...individual diodes that you are soldering to sinks, or some other completely diy type of deal. Or are you talking about several pre-made boards, cobs or strips or something else?
 

ChiefRunningPhist

Well-Known Member
Thank you both for the details.
When you guys are listing these multiple different K temps that you incorporate and use, are you mostly talking about...individual diodes that you are soldering to sinks, or some other completely diy type of deal. Or are you talking about several pre-made boards, cobs or strips or something else?
A DIY mish mash of different LED fixtures, I use a lot of E27 to suppliment.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Thank you both for the details.
When you guys are listing these multiple different K temps that you incorporate and use, are you mostly talking about...individual diodes that you are soldering to sinks, or some other completely diy type of deal. Or are you talking about several pre-made boards, cobs or strips or something else?
yeah well the diodes in my post are these with the "nm" specifying the wavelength. They're monos.
The Crees are "COBs" giving off a balanced blue & yellow/reddish spectrum
The MH/HPS are HIDs with their known output

I still feel something is missing... asking myself how much light should I stuff into that 550nm spot where absorbtion is somwehat lacking.. but I grow usually plants that have height of 1m (mainstemlength 1.50 due to LST)

Plus I got interested in Solarcure B to complement the UVA....
 

end_of_the_tunnel

Well-Known Member
Haha this is where I disagreed with Random. There's far more efficient 630nm chips than PC. We disagreed on a few things, but I miss the guy. Hope he's doing ok. He got a lot of us started and hyped about LED, myself included.
This site is sprinkled with his posts and advice. Random was generous and epitomised what a forum should be about.
 

024deeweed420

Active Member
hi there, I’ve just installed a couple of uva pucks from rapid led into small my cob led diy setup.( 2x3 tent just growing 1 plant at a time, all I need.) Wanted to know , we’re the uva lights running the whole 12 hours or just for a few hours per day? The rapid led website recommends I think 2 hours per day in flowering for their puks but I’ve heard people doing both 12 hours or a few hours. Any suggestions?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
hi there, I’ve just installed a couple of uva pucks from rapid led into small my cob led diy setup.( 2x3 tent just growing 1 plant at a time, all I need.) Wanted to know , we’re the uva lights running the whole 12 hours or just for a few hours per day? The rapid led website recommends I think 2 hours per day in flowering for their puks but I’ve heard people doing both 12 hours or a few hours. Any suggestions?
People have told me that they run their UV supplementation all day, AFTER HARDENING THE PLANTS TO IT. That's an essential step to avoid burning the plants.

One in particular reports he runs UV light in his prebloom veg so he can run his UV light full time in bloom.
 

024deeweed420

Active Member
People have told me that they run their UV supplementation all day, AFTER HARDENING THE PLANTS TO IT. That's an essential step to avoid burning the plants.

One in particular reports he runs UV light in his prebloom veg so he can run his UV light full time in bloom.
yeah ok cheers, makes sense , so slowly add a bit more time during veg then more again during flower or something like that.
Thanks!
 

mauricem00

Well-Known Member
As some of you might know, former member Or_Gro did a side-by-side comparing three different types of LED boards with supplementary UV reptile bulbs. He also did a control grow without any UV at all. The test results are interesting because UV clearly works – an increase of almost 20%!

But perhaps the most surprising thing is, you don't need UVB to do it. UVA and near-UV (400-420nm) appear to be just as effective.

The following are the results comparing a 4'x4' tent full of QB96 boards and a 4'x4' tent full of QB288 boards – both of which had 30% UVA and 6% UVB supplements (fluorescent reptile bulbs) – and a 4'x4' tent full of High Light boards and a 3'x3' with QB96 boards, both of which had no supplementary UV.

The High Light boards do have a small amount of UVA and some near-UV (400-420nm) incorporated into the boards themselves (Sunlike 415nm-pump LEDs).

The 3'x3' served as the baseline, as it had no UV or near-UV.


6 x QB96 Elite, 1 x 28 diode FR bar, 2 x 4’ T5 30% UVA & 6% UVB
Total THC: 19.8%
Total CBD: 0.7%
Total Terpenes: 4.7%


8 x QB288, 4 x QB35, 1 x 28 diode FR bar, 2 x 4’ T5 30% UVA & 6% UVB
Total THC: 18.7%
Total CBD: 0.63%
Total Terpenes: 5.0%


8 x High Light UV
Total THC: 19.1%
Total CBD: 0.64%
Total Terpenes: 4.8%


Control – 3'x3' room with 4 x QB96, 4 x rapidled FR pucks, NO UV
Total THC: 16.6%
Total CBD: 0.52%
Total Terpenes: 3.9%


I think we can safely say that UV works. However, UVA and near-UV (400-420nm) seems to work just as well as UVB. Empirical evidence, my friends :D
those test would suggest that 415nm light are as effective as reptile bulbs. since those diodesdrive phospher only a small amount of their energy is emitted as 415nm. what percentage of you UV boards is 415 nm
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
hi there, I’ve just installed a couple of uva pucks from rapid led into small my cob led diy setup.( 2x3 tent just growing 1 plant at a time, all I need.) Wanted to know , we’re the uva lights running the whole 12 hours or just for a few hours per day? The rapid led website recommends I think 2 hours per day in flowering for their puks but I’ve heard people doing both 12 hours or a few hours. Any suggestions?
If they are 395nm LEDs then you would run them 12/12, as that wavelength is not far off what we're running and similar to the UVA found in a typical CMH spectrum.



For the tests conducted in this thread, the reptile bulbs were running full-cycle.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
This test suggests a lot of things, including that there may not have been enough UVB for conclusive results.
There was a follow-up thread here that covered a second set of tests conducted with more reptile bulbs and CMH: https://rollitup.org/t/more-thc-testing-uva-vs-uvb-vs-near-uv.1010801/

One of the test growers for the second round included this tent:
1600158963862.jpeg

There was certainly enough light from these Arcadia bulbs to show up on the spectrometer.
1600158962912.png

Here's what a 6% UVB Arcadia bulb looks like. The UVB doesn't show up in the above spectograph, however you can get an idea by matching it to the spikes above. UVB is very powerful – you don't need much:
1600159155723.png
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
There was a follow-up thread here that covered a second set of tests conducted with more reptile bulbs and CMH: https://rollitup.org/t/more-thc-testing-uva-vs-uvb-vs-near-uv.1010801/

One of the test growers for the second round included this tent:
View attachment 4684161

There was certainly enough light from these Arcadia bulbs to show up on the spectrometer.
View attachment 4684160

Here's what a 6% UVB Arcadia bulb looks like. The UVB doesn't show up in the above spectograph, however you can get an idea by matching it to the spikes above. UVB is very powerful – you don't need much:
View attachment 4684163
Good stuff but how does one quantify exactly how much IS needed? Just like vitamins, there's a big difference in results between an adequate amount and an optimal quantity.
 

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Good stuff but how does one quantify exactly how much IS needed? Just like vitamins, there's a big difference in results between an adequate amount and an optimal quantity.
Well my opinion is the "optimal" amount will vary among strains and will also depend on the ratio to other colours, as well as the initial UV wavelength. No to mention how long you expose the plants.

Sunlight is about 3% UV. Of this, UVB accounts for 5% and UVA 95%. But that total ratio (3%) is when the sun is at its highest at the equator at sea level. Total UV can be much less than this depending on the time of day, season, equatorial latitude, altitude, ozone layer etc.

I believe these points have been covered elsewhere in this thread (or possibly the other UV thread), but what it means is that improvements can be seen with very little UV – and indeed studies have shown that increases in cannabinoids can also be achieved with violet (near-UV) and blue light.

The Italian studies as well as the Or_Gro tests seem to suggest that additional blue light can also increase cannabinoids in the presence of UV. That makes sense when you think about it, because blue light is higher energy light compared to other visible colours. So if the secret is to mildly stress the plant to produce more cannabinoids, then it stands to reason that you should be able to achieve this with smaller amounts of blue light than, say, red light.

In the mean time, all we can do is experiment to see what works.
 

mauricem00

Well-Known Member
a well known grower here is using 5000k led flood lights with UV bulbs and a 450nm led strip light 1600281354469.pngvery little red. did you find any evidence that UV or violet promoted flowering?
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
at sea level.
Interestingly, some of the places where Cannabis originates from have higher UV levels (sometimes even greater than the UV index reserves [>15])...
I think plant tissue can harden itself from UVB and therefore mitigate some of the effectivity of this radiation. Some growers therefore splice UVB away from UVA, and let UVB shine for just few hours. Some integrate it in the middle of the 12h light regiment(natural outlay), some more towards the end - giving the plants the chance to repair the photodamage during the night - so photosynthesis isn't stiffled the next day.
The shortened UVB light regiment would call for more power... but how strong actually are UVC/UVB mono diodes in their quantum release in comparison to the t5/t8 counterparts? LED tech has one 280nm translating 80mA - is that much?
 
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