Dr. Bruce Bugbee method: NASA technique on Mars etc.

[Overgrowtho]

Hi, is anyone here working with Dr Bruce Bugbee's system/research from Uni of Utah? He specializes in Cannabis and advises NASA how to grow on Mars.

He advises to use 50% vermiculite and 50% peat moss for explosive growth (a bit of gypsum and dolomite added in only).

Of course this is a soil-less medium, so I thought that means we need to use chemical nutrients that you would normally use with hydro, right?

He suggests using 20-10-20 nutes with 1.2 EC.

Using his system and CO2, he says you can really "push" the plants with a lot of light.

I've tried it for a couple weeks (with some Earth Worm Castings mixed in (EWC is not his system!) as I couldn't find hydro nutes in time, where I am in Asia. I saw explosive growth and then they started to yellow, I guess due to lacking micro nutrients. So I moved them over to super soil and they are somewhat recovering but much slower. That first couple of weeks had explosive growth, so I'm excited about the idea of his research.

Finally, I've gotten some hydro nutes and I'm really keen to try this again.

I was hoping that some people on here might have tried his system (or are using it now) or could advise about soil-less medium questions along the way in case of any issue I encounter?

(Dr. Bugbee hasn't been responsive on email so far -- I'm sure he has a million other important things to do, like helping us colonize mars -- than answer my newb questions).

 

[Overgrowtho]

Anyone? Anyone?

 

[HydroKid239]

Hi, is anyone here working with Dr Bruce Bugbee's system/research from Uni of Utah? He specializes in Cannabis and advises NASA how to grow on Mars.

He advises to use 50% vermiculite and 50% peat moss for explosive growth (a bit of gypsum and dolomite added in only).

Of course this is a soil-less medium, so I thought that means we need to use chemical nutrients that you would normally use with hydro, right?

He suggests using 20-10-20 nutes with 1.2 EC.

Using his system and CO2, he says you can really "push" the plants with a lot of light.

I've tried it for a couple weeks (with some Earth Worm Castings mixed in (EWC is not his system!) as I couldn't find hydro nutes in time, where I am in Asia. I saw explosive growth and then they started to yellow, I guess due to lacking micro nutrients. So I moved them over to super soil and they are somewhat recovering but much slower. That first couple of weeks had explosive growth, so I'm excited about the idea of his research.

Finally, I've gotten some hydro nutes and I'm really keen to try this again.

I was hoping that some people on here might have tried his system (or are using it now) or could advise about soil-less medium questions along the way in case of any issue I encounter?

(Dr. Bugbee hasn't been responsive on email so far -- I'm sure he has a million other important things to do, like helping us colonize mars -- than answer my newb questions).

I can only guess so. Those are soilless.. so feed and ph must follow accordingly. (Or I can only assume) No expert. Just reading a lot tonight.

 

[HydroKid239]

I've watched a couple of his vid's when I had the time.. unfortunately since they were 30-40+ min some well over an hour... I smoked while watching, and BAM.. memory gets hazy.

 

[Overgrowtho]

Man you have to watch his videos like 2-3 times to grasp everything. And take notes. But I think it's well worth it. Not too many established universities are researching optimal cannabis cultivation in a scientific environment. This could be huge. Why not give it a try?

 

[xtsho]

I'm sure that his methods work. However they are not for many growers. Vermiculite and peat will hold a ton of water unlike peat and perlite which dries out faster. Many people will have issues. Much of his stuff is for more advanced growers that already know what they're doing.

 

[Overgrowtho]

Hi Xtsho,

I hear ya, its a bit risky to try this method perhaps. If using an air pot or smart pot I guess that would help with the ton of water holding. He doenst use them however (from what I could see in his videos). Anyways Im quite interested to try it I think -- might be very rewarding.

I guess early-on it needs very little watering, and perhaps a small pot that will dry out fast.

Until roots are super thirsty later.

 

[curious2garden]

It's not so much that his growing methods are risky. It is the fact his light expertise doesn't necessarily generalize to plant husbandry. There are better substrates than what he is using, etc... That limitation doesn't detract from his knowledge about lighting.

 

[Overgrowtho]

I thought the point was that he has scientifically researched many substrates and determined that this was the best solution.

There are better substrates than what he is using

Please unpack?

 

[JonCreighton]

iv done this method and i dont really understand why people are saying its hard or confusing... infact i find it the most simple technique if ur a beginner...
its like hes done all the work for you.... watering wise id say EC is the most important thing... his system of 1.3 in and 1.0 to 1.5 out is as simple as it gets.. samee nuits straight thru flushing 10- 20% runoff everytime... lift the pots to seee how much you should be watering... if ur runnoff is over 1.5 ur watering too much let the pot become lighter before u hit it w a feed... if ur below 1.0 ur letting it dry out too much and they arnt getting enough nuits... its a very simple method that everyone uses...
the 20-10-20 straight thru is fine and iv done this and the nuits are cheap price wise.. very cheap... but iv heard his lab talk abiout the plants not needing any more potassium durring flower.. now this guy isnt a weed connasiuer hes more into energy principals and all that.. and iv heard the lab talk about potassium being detrimental to the environment.. so its just my opinion hes pushing the potassium levels as low as they can go.. so i will add more potassium than he reccomends... i also noticed slightly leafier nugs going 20-10-20 stright thru so i ticked up the potassium a little next grow and it seemed to be back to normal.. but im not sure about this it could have been confiation bias or anything...

the soil mix isnt the easiest but it is my soil of choice just because i belive hes done the testing... if i rememeber off the top of my head i came to these conclusions

he says int he video you can exchange peat for something else in this mix but i wouldnt... even going to home depot for the peat did not work.. you have to find real peat from a supply or feed store... home depot peat isnt "real" peat and the ph is fucked up... so if oyu use cheap peat ur going to go thru this process of making the medium and ur ph is going to be way too high... if all you can find is cheap peat or coco i think ur going to have to adjust the ph when you feed..
vermniculite also good for retetion and packed w silica - so you wont have to add silica till maybe the end if ever... and raises the ph of the peat..
the lime will raise the soil ph.. if u can find dolemitic.. u wont need to add as much magnesium when feeding..
the gypsom will help w calcium so you wont need to add as much of that when feeding

you dont need to do all this stuff but u can se why hes doing it and make adjustments... for istance this mix is going to settle out to like a 6.5ph.. if u were to use cheap peat it would settle out to a ph of 8.0 lets say... so when u water ur going to need to lower the ph of the water to 6.0ish to balance that out...
this is kinda why i find this method simple... take the time to get ur soil correct and all u got to worry about is 1.3 in and 1.3 out....
i shiould say even if u add all the suppliments to the medium and go 20-10-20 ur still going to neeed to add calcium and magnesium at times...

 

[JonCreighton]

It's not so much that his growing methods are risky. It is the fact his light expertise doesn't necessarily generalize to plant husbandry. There are better substrates than what he is using, etc... That limitation doesn't detract from his knowledge about lighting.

this guy isnt a light manufacture or a physicist.. this is possibly the leading plant scientist in the country... what makes you think his expertise is in lighting only? in his video on grow lighting myths he mentions making a whole series on nutrients... and the systems they develop for nasa are total systems not just light oriented...

 

[Overgrowtho]

Hi @JonCreighton , great to hear your report! Did you find that that it is correct, that you can really push plants with a lot of light using this method to get huge growth? How about a few pics?

Today I mixed up some pH 6.5 peat with the vermiculite. I accidentally added pert-lite too but I think that's fine anyways (right?) along with the gypsum and dolomite (it came in pebbles which I mashed into a fine grain). I tested the pH of the mix and it came to 7.

I'm trying this with a smart pot by the way.

So I guess if I water/feed with 5.5-6 that will be good right? I am just doing 1 plant in my lab to test it out. Where I live in Asia we dont have 20-10-20 hydro nutes but we have decent hydro from Australia that have all the macro and micro nutes.

Thank you so much for clarifying about the EC. I hadn't understood that yet -- very interesting to read your posts!!!

 

[JonCreighton]

ph wise think of it as a combo of ur watering and ur meidum... and try to combine them to hit like 6.5 or whever u want i to land but its sa combo oif the two. if ur medium starts at 7.0 and ur constantly hitting it with 6.0 it will naturually start to lower over time but u get the point...

if u got bugbees medium or another miedium and ur clicking on all cyliinders then idk how much of a difference it makes ot be honest.. butttt i think staying clicking on all cylinders is easy with this mix... way easier than soil or coco if u ask me... most of your worries are in the mix already... all u got to worry about is watering at the correct time... EC seems ot have a direct corrolation to quality... iv done different PHs and different NPK combos and they honrestly donyt have that much of a difference.... but god dam u mess up ur EC and problems arise... so this method kinda builds in most factors and u just got to worry about keeping the EC in those pots at 1.3ish and thats the most important thing... thats why i say this is actually the easiest method...

some pics.... bioth these are the bugbee mix... one is the greenhouse... i go outside wayyyyy later than most people and push them as hard as u can... i find better nug qaulity this way than just putting them outside for 4 months.... one is a pheno hunt i was pushing super hard... by hard im talking ppfd 1300-1500

 

[JonCreighton]

if ur looking for explosive growth its kinda a different calcualtion... u have to keep that EC correct but the calculation i could do for yield is kinda likee...

photosythiesis = LIGHT x (CO2 x limiting factor)

the light drives everthing... the co2 is how u covert that light to yield...limiting factor is the envirmonemnt... the heat is how the co2 is uptaken basically the ehigher the better... the humidity drives where the heat can be set (VPD).... how high u can run the humnidity is based on disease and plant health....

thats thee equation to maximise if u want yield.... focus on that.... just make sure ur root zone is solid and stable... as i keep saying 1.3 in 1.3 out... root zone should be pretty easy... maximising that equation above is a little trickier...

ambient co2 1000 ppfd of light...... 1000(.4)= 400 net photosythis

enriched co2 clicking on all cyliders envirnment wise 1000ppfd of light..... 1000(.7)= 700 net photsytheis

hopefully ur picking up what im putting down i dont really know how to exlplain it quickly...

 

[Overgrowtho]

Thanks again. Yes picking up. Very cool stuff. I will chew on that it sounds great!

 

[Kassiopeija]

this guy isnt a light manufacture or a physicist.. this is possibly the leading plant scientist in the country... what makes you think his expertise is in lighting only? in his video on grow lighting myths he mentions making a whole series on nutrients... and the systems they develop for nasa are total systems not just light oriented...

You're right, but Anni has a point too - as vermiculite is just a different material than perlite, and both have different functions. Perlite gives aeration - and cannabis roots like a light soil where roots can "breath" (gas exchange). Who has ever drowned a seed in a glass of water because it did sprout over night? Or encountered root rot because the medium was "too heavy" in conjunction with excessive (too early + too often) waterings?

Bugbee's substrate is actually developed to work in a gravity-free or less-gravity zone than what we have here on earth. There, a substrate wouldn't compact much together - which cancels the need for perlite out. So he replaces it with vermiculite - to increase the access of roots for water. Vermiculite is also very special in that it doesn't allow for water to evaporate. Less gravity would actually cause swifter evaporation, as the water can spread out distal more easy...

Secondly, peat is also very special in that it is very long-fibery - creating capillary "bridges" between the verm with which the water can travel between the different verm grains. It also has a tendency to lump strongly together, keeps the whole substrate together - if one would replace that with coco's in a spaceship the dry coco chips would fly all over the place around...

 

[Overgrowtho]

Good points. In his popular video I think he did say that vermiculite could be replaced with other inert substrates. I guess it is good that today before even thinking, I just added a lot of pertlite to the peat/vermiculite in my lab.

It is a trip, very funny and cool, to mentaly simulate growing on Mars

But as I'm not on Mars I think the green thumb took over my brain and intuition poured that pertlite in....

Truly the peat/vermiculite holds water, crazy amounts! So, I'm pretty sure a 20% to 25% pertlite won't hurt and may help. Esp for a relative newb as myself, still getting the hang of watering.

 

[JonCreighton]

You're right, but Anni has a point too - as vermiculite is just a different material than perlite, and both have different functions. Perlite gives aeration - and cannabis roots like a light soil where roots can "breath" (gas exchange). Who has ever drowned a seed in a glass of water because it did sprout over night? Or encountered root rot because the medium was "too heavy" in conjunction with excessive (too early + too often) waterings?

Bugbee's substrate is actually developed to work in a gravity-free or less-gravity zone than what we have here on earth. There, a substrate wouldn't compact much together - which cancels the need for perlite out. So he replaces it with vermiculite - to increase the access of roots for water. Vermiculite is also very special in that it doesn't allow for water to evaporate. Less gravity would actually cause swifter evaporation, as the water can spread out distal more easy...

Secondly, peat is also very special in that it is very long-fibery - creating capillary "bridges" between the verm with which the water can travel between the different verm grains. It also has a tendency to lump strongly together, keeps the whole substrate together - if one would replace that with coco's in a spaceship the dry coco chips would fly all over the place around...

good stuff.. thanks

are u sure the nasa studies and thee cannabis studies are the same... my impression was this is the guy nasa hires to study growing stuff in space therefore maybe the leading plant scientist in the country... that was approached by the cannabis industry to study cannabis... as in the nasa work and the cannabis work are two totally different things... his data is based on earthbound cannabis cultivars and a lot of the data doesnt makes sence on mars...... his video should be titled "the guy NASA chose to study plants in space has studies cannabis and wants you to know x"... for instance his research into lighting that hes kinda famous in these circuls for was done for electrical companies cuz they didnt want to give discounts to cultivators... then he makes a video and says push DLIs up over 60...

iv never had a problem w the vermicukte... maybe its used in the space station for the reason u listed.. but in his video he mentions maybe spending a little more to get the vermicukite for a few reasons... u have to raise the ph of the peat... it has the best nutrient exchnage rate... it has great water retion rate.. its loaded w silica... in my personal experience u feed a 15 gal pot its heavy... 2 days later its so light i could throw the plant thru the roof.... putting vermicuklite w topsoil might not be a good idea... but if u replace it w perilite in this mix ur going to be fucking up the mix big time... iv certainly added a little periklite to increase volume before... but id rather stay w the vermiculite... and deffinatly try to keep to his ratios cuz they add up for specific purposes....

all this being said you have to put his info into refrence frames i think.... he says 20-10-20 striaght thru... but hes always going on about "the footsteps of the farmer being the best fetalizer" and plurple LEDs suck cuz u cant diagnose the plants.. so what i think he means is 20-10-20 as a base straigh thru and add slight adjustments as the plants dictate.. not just 20-10-20 striahg thru period...

 

[JonCreighton]

Good points. In his popular video I think he did say that vermiculite could be replaced with other inert substrates. I guess it is good that today before even thinking, I just added a lot of pertlite to the peat/vermiculite in my lab.

It is a trip, very funny and cool, to mentaly simulate growing on Mars

But as I'm not on Mars I think the green thumb took over my brain and intuition poured that pertlite in....

Truly the peat/vermiculite holds water, crazy amounts! So, I'm pretty sure a 20% to 25% pertlite won't hurt and may help. Esp for a relative newb as myself, still getting the hang of watering.

just keep in mind ur using that vermiculite to pull the ph of the peat (3.5) back upward.. so if u skimp on the vermiculite ur going to need to adjust for that.... u would want to add a little more lime than he reccomends... or ph ur water up a little when u feed...

 

[Vizzaro]

ph wise think of it as a combo of ur watering and ur meidum... and try to combine them to hit like 6.5 or whever u want i to land but its sa combo oif the two. if ur medium starts at 7.0 and ur constantly hitting it with 6.0 it will naturually start to lower over time but u get the point...

if u got bugbees medium or another miedium and ur clicking on all cyliinders then idk how much of a difference it makes ot be honest.. butttt i think staying clicking on all cylinders is easy with this mix... way easier than soil or coco if u ask me... most of your worries are in the mix already... all u got to worry about is watering at the correct time... EC seems ot have a direct corrolation to quality... iv done different PHs and different NPK combos and they honrestly donyt have that much of a difference.... but god dam u mess up ur EC and problems arise... so this method kinda builds in most factors and u just got to worry about keeping the EC in those pots at 1.3ish and thats the most important thing... thats why i say this is actually the easiest method...

some pics.... bioth these are the bugbee mix... one is the greenhouse... i go outside wayyyyy later than most people and push them as hard as u can... i find better nug qaulity this way than just putting them outside for 4 months.... one is a pheno hunt i was pushing super hard... by hard im talking ppfd 1300-1500

Thank you for this explanation. I too am trying out Dr. Bruce Bugbee's special media. I purchased a bag of Sphagnum Peat Moss from my local home depot and Vermiculite from my local Hydro store as well as some Dolomitic Lime (Unfortunately the Lime was not powder it was more like small rocks) and gypsum pallets. I also purchased a Jacks 20-10-20 General Purpose not realizing there is a Peat-Lite version of Jacks 20-10-20 with double the micronutrients of the General Purpose and the Peat-Lite 20-10-20 is the one Dr. Bruce Bugbee uses. My tap water has an EC of 0.5 at 240ppm I am not sure if that plays a factor into Fertigating, Please let me know if that is too high. So I have been fertigating my plant with my tap water and I guess half strength 20-10-20 since I want my EC to be around 1.0 - 1.3. This is my first grow and I have been doing a lot of reading and finding that people like to raise their EC in flower and since I am in flower I thought I would try it out and raise my EC, unfortunately my EC run-off sky rocketed to 2.0. I thought by fertigating my plant more often would bring down the EC, after reading about "high frequency fertigation" the article was about Coco-Coir but seeing as how Peat and Coco are both soilless medias I figured the same rules apply.

I do have a lot of questions to ask you. As to how to properly fertigate a cannabis plant in Peat/Vermiculite. Did you use the Peat-Lite 20-10-20? How do you catch your run off? How can I bring my EC down? Should I fertigate with R/O water only? You mentioned having to add CAL-MAG later when its depleted in the medium do you just add more Lime in a top dressing? Are you always testing your run-off pH cause I stopped again after reading an article that measuring that doesn't really help you know the real pH at root level? I have notes of my fertigation schedule as I am trying to find when the right time to Fertigate is and I am having a hard time trying to figure that out. Also I have been wondering about the Potassium and bud quality cause I know everyone talks about increasing potassium during flower to make the buds grow bigger and I was curious if you would consider increasing potassium for more thicker buds or if there isn't much of a difference.