The Divided States of America

[DIY-HP-LED]

It's still a work in Progress
It's simply the fucking Humans that are fucking up the Concept of getting along/not killing each other.
Some fucking day, right?

That's the idea and believe it or not it is getting better over time, it is not a linear progression though the line zig zags up and down a bit, but the upward trend is unmistakable and the British/American model provided the means. The British spread more than empire, they spread liberalism and then democracy, the British empire carried the seeds of it's eventual dissolution in it's cradle and left many democracies in it's wake, many failed, but many thrived and grew and some are struggling, but they spread the idea, the means to achieve it, to adapt it and improve upon it.

This political "technology" helped change the world too, even totalitarian systems ape the form and even some of the substance. It works for republics and constitutional monarchies too, the forms vary but the idea and ideals remain the same. More often than not it is the historical baggage of the people that is the problem and those who want to gain power by social division, not the system or constitution, they depend on the good will of the parties involved.

 

[Fogdog]

The Greeks had a democracy long before America existed. The UK's democracy started around 1295.

"existing"

The UK is a monarchy, more accurately put, a constitutional monarchy. Not saying the US is better. Not saying UK doesn't have democratic institutions (of course it does and did).

Just saying that at the time the US was formed, the English king still held executive power, so, not a democracy in the sense that the US was. But I know I'm speaking to somebody who already knows that and much more than I do on the subject.

 

[Fogdog]

If you guys want the beginnings of a royal family we've got a Prince you can have....

We just got rid of one family that seemed to be getting too comfy in the People's House. But I'd be glad to hear if the UK got rid of it's royal family. Maybe they can all join Putin in his dacha.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

"existing"

The UK is a monarchy, more accurately put, a constitutional monarchy. Not saying the US is better. Not saying UK doesn't have democratic institutions (of course it does and did).

Just saying that at the time the US was formed, the English king still held executive power, so, not a democracy in the sense that the US was. But I know I'm speaking to somebody who already knows that and much more than I do on the subject.

Interestingly both countries and Canada too gave the franchise to women at the same time, both democracies evolved, with the franchise being broadened to include all adults and all races. There is much remaining to be done, it is a work in progress and America just made a bit.

 

[Fogdog]

This happened just after the American revolution, they dealt with King George 250 years ago, better than the Americans did with King Donald today! I believe Dr. Willis is just what King Donald needed!

Trump has shown us how powerful the executive branch is. The thing is, there have been plenty of monarchs, kings, queens, emperors and others who inherited their office, could not be removed without violence and were worse than even Trump was.

I have to disagree with you that the British "dealt" with King George better than we did with Trump. We only had Trump for four years. King George's reign lasted almost 70 years and he held executive power for at least half of his reign. We followed our laws and constitution pretty much down to the last letter. I'm proud to say that the rule of law was upheld, even when the Senate refused to remove Trump, it was their legal right to do so. I'm not proud of what happened but I can say that I'm proud of how we handled the situation.

I think Trump is a symptom of our division, and not the cause of it. We are a divided country with many people who are slavering to tear down our democracy, both from within and without. Our political system is still sound and we can rely on it so long as we observe and protect it.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Trump has shown us how powerful the executive branch is. The thing is, there have been plenty of monarchs, kings, queens, emperors and others who inherited their office, could not be removed without violence and were worse than even Trump was.

I have to disagree with you that the British "dealt" with King George better than we did with Trump. We only had Trump for four years. King George's reign lasted almost 70 years and he held executive power for at least half of his reign. We followed our laws and constitution pretty much down to the last letter. I'm proud to say that the rule of law was upheld, even when the Senate refused to remove Trump, it was their legal right to do so. I'm not proud of what happened but I can say that I'm proud of how we handled the situation.

I think Trump is a symptom of our division, and not the cause of it. We are a divided country with many people who are slavering to tear down our democracy, both from within and without. Our political system is still sound and we can rely on it so long as we observe and protect it.

I was just kidding with the king George video, but it does illustrate how much real power he had at the time of the revolution, Lord North fucked things up, he was PM at the time, Pitt the younger put George in the chair.

 

[Stone_Free]

Trump has shown us how powerful the executive branch is. The thing is, there have been plenty of monarchs, kings, queens, emperors and others who inherited their office, could not be removed without violence and were worse than even Trump was.

I have to disagree with you that the British "dealt" with King George better than we did with Trump. We only had Trump for four years. King George's reign lasted almost 70 years and he held executive power for at least half of his reign. We followed our laws and constitution pretty much down to the last letter. I'm proud to say that the rule of law was upheld, even when the Senate refused to remove Trump, it was their legal right to do so. I'm not proud of what happened but I can say that I'm proud of how we handled the situation.

I think Trump is a symptom of our division, and not the cause of it. We are a divided country with many people who are slavering to tear down our democracy, both from within and without. Our political system is still sound and we can rely on it so long as we observe and protect it.

In some respects neither the US nor UK have democracy. The rich and the media control how a lot of people think...and a lot of those people don't even know it. Sure we get to vote, but the choices put in front of us are there because certain people approve of them. The rich don't spend billions on politicians without getting what they want in return.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

In some respects neither the US nor UK have democracy. The rich and the media control how a lot of people think...and a lot of those people don't even know it. Sure we get to vote, but the choices put in front of us are there because certain people approve of them. The rich don't spend billions on politicians without getting what they want in return.

It would be correct to say they are a pernicious influence on policy as is bigotry and racism, internal pressures that are imposed on a political system. Greed, hate and fear fuck up the more perfect union, they always have.

 

[Jimdamick]

The British spread more than empire, they spread liberalism and then democracy

Yea, fucking right
Tell that to the Irish/Scotts/Jamaicans/Chinese/Japanese/Indians/Australians, just to name a few of they're former conquests.
They sowed fucking diaster for millions upon millions throughout they're history.
I have no respect at all for the British Empire.
Fucking cunts

 

[Fogdog]

Not much progress

In some respects neither the US nor UK have democracy. The rich and the media control how a lot of people think...and a lot of those people don't even know it. Sure we get to vote, but the choices put in front of us are there because certain people approve of them. The rich don't spend billions on politicians without getting what they want in return.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union

The words in the preamble to the constitution are "more perfect union". Nobody has ever said perfect. Well maybe Trump did. He says stuff.

We have much to make more perfect. I'm puzzling over why so many voted fascist this time around. Trump was blatantly fascist and I believe he planned to make himself and his family permanent fixtures in our government. Not a single person who voted for him could claim ignorance over this. So, why?

Studies have shown that Trump's racist and misogynistic rhetoric resonated strongly with his voters, much more so than other presidential candidates in the modern era. Also too, looking at the news we can see how strongly authoritarian Trump's supporters are. I hear them say things like "we can't tax corporations (or the wealthy) or they will leave the country" and of course, the way they respond to protests against police brutality is shockingly fascist. They rallied behind that kid who went hunting Antifa during the civil unrest in Kenosha Wisconsin, for example. I don't know what this all means but I'm listening and trying to put it together in order to understand.

 

[Stone_Free]

Yea, fucking right
Tell that to the Irish/Scotts/Jamaicans/Chinese/Japanese/Indians/Australians, just to name a few of they're former conquests.
They sowed fucking diaster for millions upon millions throughout they're history.
I have no respect at all for the British Empire.
Fucking cunts

As an Englishman I completely agree with what you say. A lot of English people like to think they and England are special but they know nothing of our history, or if they do they conveniently forget the murder/rape/pillage we've been responsible for down the centuries . They worship Churchill but he was responsible for 3 million deaths in India in the 1940's.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Yea, fucking right
Tell that to the Irish/Scotts/Jamaicans/Chinese/Japanese/Indians/Australians, just to name a few of they're former conquests.
They sowed fucking diaster for millions upon millions throughout they're history.
I have no respect at all for the British Empire.
Fucking cunts

They had their good points and their bad, they were better than most empires and left most places with good grace and intentions for the people there. The seeds of their own destruction was the liberal ideas they spread, Gandhi realized this as a British trained lawyer at the turn of the 20ty century, he played to a British domestic audience and an American one, the congress party name is a good example. It was liberalism that caused the British to quit Ireland too.

 

[Stone_Free]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union

The words in the preamble to the constitution are "more perfect union". Nobody has ever said perfect. Well maybe Trump did. He says stuff.

We have much to make more perfect. I'm puzzling over why so many voted fascist this time around. Trump was blatantly fascist and I believe he planned to make himself and his family permanent fixtures in our government. Not a single person who voted for him could claim ignorance over this. So, why?

Studies have shown that Trump's racist and misogynistic rhetoric resonated strongly with his voters, much more so than other presidential candidates in the modern era. Also too, looking at the news we can see how strongly authoritarian Trump's supporters are. I hear them say things like "we can't tax corporations (or the wealthy) or they will leave the country" and of course, the way they respond to protests against police brutality is shockingly fascist. They rallied behind that kid who went hunting Antifa during the civil unrest in Kenosha Wisconsin, for example. I don't know what this all means but I'm listening and trying to put it together in order to understand.

One of the solutions, or a part of the whole solution, is to take money out of politics. Until that happens not much will change. The only money that goes to political parties/politicians should be tax payers money, and the amount should be limited. Look at how much FB has received from political ads....it's obscene. If there was no profit in politics it'd be a much cleaner business.

 

[Stone_Free]

At least some rich lost a few $'s on Trump. That's gotta be worth a laugh

Sheldon Adelson Pumped $75 Million Into New Pro-Trump Super-PAC

Other big donors include billionaires Bernie Marcus, Diane Hendricks and Warren Stephens.

www.forbes.com

 

[Dryxi]

At least some rich lost a few $'s on Trump. That's gotta be worth a laugh

Sheldon Adelson Pumped $75 Million Into New Pro-Trump Super-PAC

Other big donors include billionaires Bernie Marcus, Diane Hendricks and Warren Stephens.

www.forbes.com

But they made millions (some billions) already in the pandemic, so I wonder how much did they actually lose?

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Studies have shown that Trump's racist and misogynistic rhetoric resonated strongly with his voters, much more so than other presidential candidates in the modern era. Also too, looking at the news we can see how strongly authoritarian Trump's supporters are. I hear them say things like "we can't tax corporations (or the wealthy) or they will leave the country" and of course, the way they respond to protests against police brutality is shockingly fascist. They rallied behind that kid who went hunting Antifa during the civil unrest in Kenosha Wisconsin, for example. I don't know what this all means but I'm listening and trying to put it together in order to understand.

There is some interesting academic work in this field and there is a popular book out on this subject now, but I can remember the title or author, just came to me.

Economist's View: John Dean: Authoritarianism Rules Republicans

Former Nixon White House counsel John Dean of Watergate fame (or better, infamy) isn't very happy with the direction the Republican Party is headed under its current leadership. After studying "decades of empirical research," he thinks he understands why, authoritarianism,...

economistsview.typepad.com

 

[Jimdamick]

One of the solutions, or a part of the whole solution, is to take money out of politics. Until that happens not much will change. The only money that goes to political parties/politicians should be tax payers money, and the amount should be limited. Look at how much FB has received from political ads....it's obscene. If there was no profit in politics it'd be a much cleaner business.

The Supreme Court decision to allow the creation of PAC's was/is a fucking disaster.
That has to be amended.

 

[Fogdog]

One of the solutions, or a part of the whole solution, is to take money out of politics. Until that happens not much will change. The only money that goes to political parties/politicians should be tax payers money, and the amount should be limited. Look at how much FB has received from political ads....it's obscene. If there was no profit in politics it'd be a much cleaner business.

Agree that campaign finance reform is needed. Necessary, even. To get there, we have to figure out how to gain cooperation from the people who just tried to install a fascist monarchy in the White House. The Supreme Court ruled that money is speech, therefore laws regulating campaign spending are for the most part unconstitutional. Also corporations have the same rights that people do. Another insane idea. Couple that with money being the same as speech and we have corporations able to give money to candidates. Talk about a system rife with legal corruption. This is stupid but it's the law of the land right now.

So, I think we need to pass an amendment that defines speech as something people say, not what they possess. Also an amendment to define people as human beings and take that status away from immortal, non-sentient corporations (multinational ones too) that do not have children or any notion of humanity. But in order to do that, we need cooperation from a decent portion of the same people who voted for Trump. I don't know how we are going to do that right now.

 

[Stone_Free]

Agree that campaign finance reform is needed. Necessary, even. To get there, we have to figure out how to gain cooperation from the people who just tried to install a fascist monarchy in the White House. The Supreme Court ruled that money is speech, therefore laws regulating campaign spending are for the most part unconstitutional. Also corporations have the same rights that people do. Another insane idea. Couple that with money being the same as speech and we have corporations able to give money to candidates. Talk about a system rife with legal corruption. This is stupid but it's the law of the land right now.

So, I think we need to pass an amendment that defines speech as something people say, not what they possess. Also an amendment to define people as human beings and take that status away from immortal, non-sentient corporations (multinational ones too) that do not have children or any notion of humanity. But in order to do that, we need cooperation from a decent portion of the same people who voted for Trump. I don't know how we are going to do that right now.

This is partly why cryptocurrency could be such a game-changer. If ordinary people like us can opt out of the current monetary system it stymies the rich to a large extent. They can't get the Central Bank to print off billions of £'s/$'s and get you and I to pay for it. There can be a real separation between everyday spending for stuff like rent/food/clothing/bills and the speculation of the Stock Market etc.
I think there isn't one solution but several together can make a huge difference.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

This is partly why cryptocurrency could be such a game-changer. If ordinary people like us can opt out of the current monetary system it stymies the rich to a large extent. They can't get the Central Bank to print off billions of £'s/$'s and get you and I to pay for it. There can be a real separation between everyday spending for stuff like rent/food/clothing/bills and the speculation of the Stock Market etc.
I think there isn't one solution but several together can make a huge difference.

I haven't thought too much about it or seen much expert opinion, it sounds interesting and I wonder if the idea will survive quantum computers... Technology could make "mining" much easier and suddenly cheaper in the future, devaluating everybody's currency overnight, it basically depends on the energy cost of computation, as efficiencies increase so does inflation.