Beginner Tea Question
- Thread starter NightSpider
- Start date
myke
Well-Known Member
Bagged soil has already been cooked,or at least you hope.This means it has broken down already and is ready to use.
NightSpider
Active Member
yes.
the 3 untransplanted old pots are 5 gallons which were another similar soil of plagron without the guano.
1 was taken out, the whole pot (4 gallons were full) was the rootball so it all went into the bigger 10 gal pot as a solid one part thing. No new soil entered the existing root area. It was covered with it under, sides and top in the new 10 gal pot.
What I have right now is : 50 liters of that bagged soil I shared, tons of worm castings, coco bricks, perlite, and approximately 50-100 liters left of the worm casting+ bagged soil mix which I believe is to be %60 casting %40 bagged soil.
the 3 untransplanted old pots are 5 gallons which were another similar soil of plagron without the guano.
1 was taken out, the whole pot (4 gallons were full) was the rootball so it all went into the bigger 10 gal pot as a solid one part thing. No new soil entered the existing root area. It was covered with it under, sides and top in the new 10 gal pot.
What I have right now is : 50 liters of that bagged soil I shared, tons of worm castings, coco bricks, perlite, and approximately 50-100 liters left of the worm casting+ bagged soil mix which I believe is to be %60 casting %40 bagged soil.
NightSpider
Active Member
I see so they specify the estimated amount of available nutrients in the soil at the time of opening and using the bag, but they estimate how much will have been broken down while cooking, not because they added chemical fertilizer. AHHH thank you man
myke
Well-Known Member
@kratos015
@Richard Drysift
These fellows know a lot more then me,I hope Ive at least got you on the right track.
@Richard Drysift
These fellows know a lot more then me,I hope Ive at least got you on the right track.
Richard Drysift
Well-Known Member
Had to read through this whole thread to get up to speed. I can tell you from experience that in order to get your plants to a “mostly water only“ status your mix will need to be recycled a few times. In the meantime you will probably need to give soluble nutrients. Some of your issues have to do with the level of microbial activity in your soil and also absorption or ph/ec; these are related. First...
Adjusting the ph/ec of your water does not change the soil ph nor does checking runoff tell you anything useful. You need a fairly expensive soil probe to measure what the actual ph/ec is in the root zone with accuracy; it can change drastically from one spot to another depending upon the composition of the mix in that particular spot; this is why runoff ec tells you nothing helpful.
It is the soil composition itself and microbial activity that sets the ph/ec in range for absorption in the root zone; adjusting the water you give does not change it unless the mix has already become basically a sterile medium.
Giving a compost tea regularly and/or top dressing w/ewc can help increase activity but does little to actually feed the plants. A slow release fertilizer like chicken or cow manure might be the thing your mix is lacking. Guano is over rated imo; I think people like it because it seems exotic but it’s concentrated (high npk value) & falls off faster than other types of dung based fertilizer. It’s ok to use it’s just there are far better choices.
Granular mycorrhizae is another thing you should look into; myco assists with absorption, helps fight disease and promotes overall plant health. Add it by sprinkling myco in the hole each time you transplant; place the root ball right on top. It needs to be in direct contact with the roots to work. Any brand mycorrhizae (even generic) is fine. Try a side by side you’ll see the difference...
Aeration in an organic mix is super important; compost tends to be heavy and can makes the soil mucky and compacted. Adding in some perlite and/or coco coir helps; vermiculite is an often overlooked soil conditioner that helps retain moisture without keeping the mix overly saturated.
Simply potting up with fresh soil usually can fix a ton of sins. Plan to transplant often; at least three times per full grow cycle. Adding in the EWC will also help but I think you are still going to need something soluble to get them back to a healthy green. Not all nutrients are safe for living soil grows so be careful what you feed from a bottle. Look for the OMRI label to be sure it’s ok for the micro herd. I suggest a liquid fish emulsion and or seaweed fertilizer like Neptune’s Harvest w/seaweed.
Once microbial activity begins to cease the plant will suffer as if there is a deficiency. Soil does not really deplete in 6 weeks but it can be rendered devoid of life if whatever you add upsets the balance. Take a good look at your water source and whatever nutrients you give them. Nothing wrong with synthetic nutrients but it sort of defeats the purpose of growing I soil. You can always recharge the soil again by adding compost and or teas to increase the microbial population but it must be done before the plants begin to show problems. In organic soil if you see something like your mix falling off it’s already too late. You have to provide everything the plants will need before they actually need it.
The idea is to put everything in the mix before there are plants and then let it set for awhile to normalize the ph/ec. Then all you gotta do is water them at that point but I takes a few recycles before you can get there. It’s actually difficult to get it right the first run with a bagged mix. Learn about how to recycle the soil after each run; aquire the amendments you choose to use as inputs and keep on recycling the soil. It will get slightly better every time you do. People will go to great lengths to build decent soil from scratch but you can do the same with a bagged mix albeit with a bit more time and effort. Hope that helps
Adjusting the ph/ec of your water does not change the soil ph nor does checking runoff tell you anything useful. You need a fairly expensive soil probe to measure what the actual ph/ec is in the root zone with accuracy; it can change drastically from one spot to another depending upon the composition of the mix in that particular spot; this is why runoff ec tells you nothing helpful.
It is the soil composition itself and microbial activity that sets the ph/ec in range for absorption in the root zone; adjusting the water you give does not change it unless the mix has already become basically a sterile medium.
Giving a compost tea regularly and/or top dressing w/ewc can help increase activity but does little to actually feed the plants. A slow release fertilizer like chicken or cow manure might be the thing your mix is lacking. Guano is over rated imo; I think people like it because it seems exotic but it’s concentrated (high npk value) & falls off faster than other types of dung based fertilizer. It’s ok to use it’s just there are far better choices.
Granular mycorrhizae is another thing you should look into; myco assists with absorption, helps fight disease and promotes overall plant health. Add it by sprinkling myco in the hole each time you transplant; place the root ball right on top. It needs to be in direct contact with the roots to work. Any brand mycorrhizae (even generic) is fine. Try a side by side you’ll see the difference...
Aeration in an organic mix is super important; compost tends to be heavy and can makes the soil mucky and compacted. Adding in some perlite and/or coco coir helps; vermiculite is an often overlooked soil conditioner that helps retain moisture without keeping the mix overly saturated.
Simply potting up with fresh soil usually can fix a ton of sins. Plan to transplant often; at least three times per full grow cycle. Adding in the EWC will also help but I think you are still going to need something soluble to get them back to a healthy green. Not all nutrients are safe for living soil grows so be careful what you feed from a bottle. Look for the OMRI label to be sure it’s ok for the micro herd. I suggest a liquid fish emulsion and or seaweed fertilizer like Neptune’s Harvest w/seaweed.
Once microbial activity begins to cease the plant will suffer as if there is a deficiency. Soil does not really deplete in 6 weeks but it can be rendered devoid of life if whatever you add upsets the balance. Take a good look at your water source and whatever nutrients you give them. Nothing wrong with synthetic nutrients but it sort of defeats the purpose of growing I soil. You can always recharge the soil again by adding compost and or teas to increase the microbial population but it must be done before the plants begin to show problems. In organic soil if you see something like your mix falling off it’s already too late. You have to provide everything the plants will need before they actually need it.
The idea is to put everything in the mix before there are plants and then let it set for awhile to normalize the ph/ec. Then all you gotta do is water them at that point but I takes a few recycles before you can get there. It’s actually difficult to get it right the first run with a bagged mix. Learn about how to recycle the soil after each run; aquire the amendments you choose to use as inputs and keep on recycling the soil. It will get slightly better every time you do. People will go to great lengths to build decent soil from scratch but you can do the same with a bagged mix albeit with a bit more time and effort. Hope that helps
NightSpider
Active Member
So by soluble nutrients, does it have to be liquid fertiliser or can I satisfy this demand completely with various teas?
Regarding PH: the foremost problem I am facing in my current grow is : although I have had various signs on the leaves which I guessed was caused by PH (lockout), They are mostly gone and the problem I am mainly facing is leaves turning pink and purple. It started from the second sset of leaves, not the exact bottom and is currently working its way up the leaves. A quick google search made me think it was molybdenum and they said probably my soil is too acidic. I have THOROUGHLY flushed with ph'd water since that was all I could think of. I stopped flushing when the runoff ph was 6.5 . While it seemed to help for a while, the problem is continuing and I do not know how to fix right now. I guess by reading what you say the solution is setting up a proper microbial soil life so it fixes the soil ph.
Since my last post, I have removed that mucky worm castings, and filled the pot instead with a bagged soil + worm castings + coco + perlite mix which was rich in compost but is draining perfectly right now, it doesnt seem to be too compact. That was the first of my 4 pots, I have since transplanted one of the 2 pots having severe molybdenum symptoms. It has been just a day so too early to say anything. 10 worms each were added to the new 10 gal pots.
Haven't been able to mulch yet. What can I buy for mulch other than straw?
I havent flushed or thoroughly watered the new transplanted pots after I filled in the bagged soil worm casting mix. Should I? Because there are burn signs at the tip of one of the plants and I suspect although they were there before transplanting, they seem to have gotten more visible.
I use canna rhizotonic in liquid form. I add it to my first 2 waterings after planting transplanting etc. Is this good enough?
So if I understand correctly:
My mix had bagged fertilised soil in it enough for 6 weeks but it has been diluted with ewc and aeration so I dont know for how long but it should be ok atm.
The ewc I added and the compost and ewc that was already in the bagged soil will be broken down bu fungi microbes and bugs will start to grow and eat them worms will eat stuff and poop more useful stuff and this process will take time to set in. But right now that isnt what my soil is and the decomposition and the rate that these nutrients become available to the plants right now will not be enough so you suggest I add soluble nutrients. If I understand right teas, (I read some stuff about malted barley teas, sprouted corn teas, manure teas compost teas etc etc but I know nothing properly about the subject as of yet) while good for enzymes and bacterial and fungal diversity in the soil, it does not have enough readily available nutrients to keep my plants going in the situation they are in now. From what I understand, some fertilisers do not interrupt and harm the soil life when applied, the ones with OMRI certificates are such ones. I have been using https://www.eurohydro.com/pro-organic these as my fertilizers and some other things like fulvic acid, root booster and bloom booster from the same brand. Are these suitable? So you suggest I keep feeding with this for now right?
But I want to take steps towards improving my soil life and taking steps towards a watering, tea and occasional top feed grow style. I was thinking maybe I should add a green mulch to normal mulching too and add some cover crops. Figured maybe the additional root activity would help settling the soil and extra exudates and aeration after they die. Does it make sense? Should I use crimson clovers?
What the tent looks like right now:
The transplanted one with molybdenum issues and burns at tip. Not sure if burns existed pre transplant, will observe to see if it gets more serious:
Purpleness:
Burns:
The other transplanted one, from my other strain. These had some nitroen def. sympoms in the past, all 4 plants had a calcium def symptoms phase. These had no pink or purple molybdenum signs while the other 2 pots have had them a long time now but it has started on these too. Also, there are yellowings on lower leaves. these lower leaves are darker green than upper ones but the yellow stripes are lighter than the color of upper greens.
Starting Purpleness. The proto doesnt show clearly but its purple:
The yellow stripes on the lowest leaf set:
And the new looks of the soil, much better than the previous muddy worm casting muck:
NightSpider
Active Member
Bump
Crazy_Ace420
Well-Known Member
I used this for mine with like 40% perlite added and it works great. Got it at Lowes or Home Depot
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Yes, and yes. Plus crimson clover looks really cute if you get them to the point of flowering. Just be a bit careful because the nitrogen that's released from their root nodules is made available pretty quickly, and even the plant itself decays by bacteria eating it within a week or two once it's knocked down and dies. Nitrogen is pretty precious, so you can mop it up with annual rye grass grown along with it. Plus unlike the clover, the rye grass will send roots to the very bottom of your pot or bed very quickly.
Richard Drysift
Well-Known Member
Canna Rhizotonic does not belong in an organic mix and is probably not helping. Your plants look to be locked out of nutrients; the ph of your soil is likely out of range. Adding compost should have helped but honestly 10 worms in your pots wont do much of anything. Flushing probably made things worse and ph-ing your water will do nothing to change the actual soil ph in the root zone.
Like I said it usually takes a few recycles to get your mix up to where it can sustain the plants with just plan water unless you start off with a decent organic soil mix that is already highly active. “Super soil” as it is known which is kind of a dumb moniker; I prefer to just call it an active mix. Any soil can be made super just by adding in compost, fertilizer, and mineral inputs to help buffer ph but it takes awhile for whatever you add in to break down and become available to the plants for absorption. That is ...IF there is microbial activity in the mix that can actively decompose the organic materials in the first place. That being said the liquid eurohydro nutrients that you are using also require microbial activity to work; they still must be decomposed in order to become absorbed by the plants root system. This is why adding ewc is so important and why I suggest adding granular mycorrhizae at transplants; the fungi assists with absorption of nutrients....this is where most of your issues are coming from. Ph and absorption are the same thing and closely related to microbial activity.
These plants are not even in bloom phase yet where they will need a lot more available NPK. Giving teas and liquid organic nutrients should help but if all else fails there is always synthetic nutrients. Fix your soil ph problems before you flip these or it will get a lot worse.
NightSpider
Active Member
So do I add more worms or top dress minerals to buffer ph? Whenever there was a ph problem people told me to flush.
I had started brewing some compost tea with jusst a bit of molasses yesterday, will that help at all?
I had started brewing some compost tea with jusst a bit of molasses yesterday, will that help at all?
NightSpider
Active Member
So as I understand
1) I need a different mycorrhizal product and need to apply it.
2) I need to fix soil ph, how can I do that.
3) Worms break down compost and I need more.
4)The soil eight now has lots of ewc, some sheep manure compost, perlite, a bit of coco to help drainage and bagged organic soil. My straw for mulch will arrive today and in a week I will have acquired the cover crop seeds. Would this soil have nomicrobial life?
5)I havent added any gypsum or lime or anything becauae I dont really completely understand the chemistry yet and I am not sure what to put in. Was gypsum used to fix soil ph?
6)As far as I know teas are good for inoculation but as in actual nutrients in the fluid, it is not very rich, it works by enabling the microbes in the soil to break down the nutrients already in the soil. So this evening when I apply foliar and drench tea, should I also mix in my eurohydro liquid ferts too? The tea has molasses, ewc, cow manure compost and sheep manure compost.
1) I need a different mycorrhizal product and need to apply it.
2) I need to fix soil ph, how can I do that.
3) Worms break down compost and I need more.
4)The soil eight now has lots of ewc, some sheep manure compost, perlite, a bit of coco to help drainage and bagged organic soil. My straw for mulch will arrive today and in a week I will have acquired the cover crop seeds. Would this soil have nomicrobial life?
5)I havent added any gypsum or lime or anything becauae I dont really completely understand the chemistry yet and I am not sure what to put in. Was gypsum used to fix soil ph?
6)As far as I know teas are good for inoculation but as in actual nutrients in the fluid, it is not very rich, it works by enabling the microbes in the soil to break down the nutrients already in the soil. So this evening when I apply foliar and drench tea, should I also mix in my eurohydro liquid ferts too? The tea has molasses, ewc, cow manure compost and sheep manure compost.
Richard Drysift
Well-Known Member
A simple compost tea should help somewhat but I am trying to tell you some of the problem is all the other stuff you are adding like canna rhizotonic and ph up/down. The reason people say to flush is because they are using synth nutes and that’s the only fix for feeding to heavy with soluble npk. Teas are subtle and typically maintain activity; that’s about it. Seems like you are just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.
I don’t know how to unfuck soil once it is fucked; it is much easier in my exp to start out right and then coast through to mid bloom where most issues in living soil usually occur. I’ve never seen plants that suddenly go back to being lush and green after the ph is out of balance. It’s going to be long road to recovery and giving just plain water as needed for now probably the fix since you have added in a bunch of organic materials. Wait and see what they look like in a few weeks. In the meantime...
1. All you need is a sprinkle of granular mycorrhizae in the hole at transplants. One application is usually enough to innoculate the root ball but it doesn’t hurt to add it every time you pot up. I don’t know what you are using but try to find something like Myko xtreme or Great White($$); even a genetic white label granular mycorrhizae will work just fine.
2. The soil ph should fix itself with time if you added in some organic materials but your mix could now be lacking minerals to help buffer it. I would just let the plants ride it out with plain water for a awhile. No PH adjustments just water them as needed.
In the meantime add some ewc, maybe some kelp and/or neem meal, a slow release fertilizer input like cow or chicken manure, and at least one mineral ph buffer like D-lime and/or garden gypsum. Crushed oyster shell flour directly in the mix at the root zone will also do wonders to help with buffering. Aquire these amendments if you don’t have them and then throw all this into a tote bin or something to mix it up with your base soil. Add everything in small but equal amounts; let’s say 1/2 cup per 2 cu ft of base soil. You can always add compost up to 1/3 of your mix. All this needs time to break down and normalize ph. Let it set for 30 days to “cook“ it in. Then you can use this mix to transplant into.... maybe by the time your plants recover you can use it for bloom phase or even your next run. That way you will start off right instead of trying to fix the soil while there are plants growing in it. Prevention is so much easier than trying to fix multiple deficiencies later on. Planning is key with living soil grows; this is the advanced class.
3. Yes you do; that’s why I started a worm bin. The worm factory 360 was a total game changer for me. Best thing you can do if you have the space.
4. All of that sounds good to me but give it time to work; things happen slow in soil so be patient. Give just plain water only for a couple weeks and see what happens before doing much else. A cover crop is something I typically don’t do but if you have some amended soil mix as outlined from step 2 you can plant your cover crop seeds in a container of your choice no till style and transplant into it after they are sprouting. I still recommend adding granular mycorrhizae when you do this; must be touching the roots to work.
5. See answer #2. Minerals help with buffering thereby assisting with absorption and provides macronutrients that help absorb everything else like NPK. Very important stuff but any decent bagged soil should be properly limed already. Minerals tend to break down very slowly so you shouldn’t need to add them in every time; maybe every other time. It’s good to mix it up diversity is almost more important than ratios imo. Getting your head around soil ph and composition takes time and reckoning; exp will show you the way. The plants will always tell you what the problem is if you how to listen.
6. Yes that’s true...I would give them a simple compost tea weekly and just plain water in between. If they look like they still need a boost after a couple weeks then give a light dose of soluble NPK. I prefer liquid fertilizers like fish emulsion but it’s your choice. I think it’s better to put slow release fertilizer in the mix itself instead. The idea is to put everything they need in the soil before there are plants growing in it and then you just water them as needed. Keep it simple; Less is more