Why does organic soil get better over time?

[Stoney Bear94]

Reading on the internet, people debate the effectiveness of adding microbes to the soil with microbial teas etc. stating that since microbes multiple so quickly, there really isn’t much of a valid use case for adding them in teas. And that also, so many of them are “invasive” and not local that it doesn’t make sense to allow them to breed out of control before adding.
From my understanding, organic soil is better on run 10 then run 1, assuming your adding organic fertilizers as needed to replenish.
What are all the reasons for this?

 

[solakani]

Some amendments are slow release and becomes plant available over time. Crushed oyster shells can aid in aeration of soils, and also bring a very long term slow release calcium source.

 

[kratos015]

Reading on the internet, people debate the effectiveness of adding microbes to the soil with microbial teas etc. stating that since microbes multiple so quickly, there really isn’t much of a valid use case for adding them in teas. And that also, so many of them are “invasive” and not local that it doesn’t make sense to allow them to breed out of control before adding.
From my understanding, organic soil is better on run 10 then run 1, assuming your adding organic fertilizers as needed to replenish.
What are all the reasons for this?

Imagine that your soil is a civilization.

Imagine you're a couple of microbes starting a civilization when you start with new peat, new compost, etc. You're too small to even be considered a town, let alone a city.

Over time, the people/microbes breed, civilization grows and so the need for a larger town becomes necessary. Eventually, your town becomes a city, and then eventually a full blown metropolis. With highways, freeways, everything you'd expect of a metropolis.

Starting with new soil is like a small town. Soil that has been in no-till for years? Los Angeles.

 

[Stoney Bear94]

Ya that was my understanding and belief upon stumbling into this information. Their point is that the rate that these microbes multiple - 1 to 250k in like 10 hours that it doesn’t take months to have the multiplication to fill a metropolis.

My belief aligns with yours, but just doing some fact checking. LA is sick but what bout that SMOG? Maybe LA with Tesla’s

 

[Ukulele Haze]

Fascinating. I always assumed soil has an expiration date and that's that (especially because of the peat). But, I guess if you're replacing the peat, it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Aussieaceae]

Reading on the internet, people debate the effectiveness of adding microbes to the soil with microbial teas etc. stating that since microbes multiple so quickly, there really isn’t much of a valid use case for adding them in teas. And that also, so many of them are “invasive” and not local that it doesn’t make sense to allow them to breed out of control before adding.
From my understanding, organic soil is better on run 10 then run 1, assuming your adding organic fertilizers as needed to replenish.
What are all the reasons for this?

My own 2 cents worth here. As mainly an outdoor no till, organic grower.

The microbes are definitely important. But more important is somewhere for them to flourish. This environment is achieved through the combination of rich organic matter, organic carbon, microbial diversity and good soil aeration.
A microbial tea mostly doesn't supply these. It's just h2O and specific microbes. It lacks the same structure, organic matter / carbon and diversity.

I don't feel there's anything wrong at all with a tea. Only I'm of the belief you can achieve the same goal, if not potentially better. By adding the tea ingredients straight to your soil, instead of only by means of a tea.
It is better for the indigenous microbes.
I will always favor indigenous microbiology, before I introduce it. I believe in theory it's better in the long term. Both for the grower and native environment.

Organic Carbon is the most important thing for an organic soil.
Even for indoor soil, I'd choose whole organic materials as my source of microbes and nutrient, before considering a tea.
A tea should be treated as a top up tonic or supplement, in my opinion.
It's a quick temporary fix. Or to maintain.

Trivial information here. But bacteria can double in numbers every 30 - 60 minutes, given the ideal environment. Whether anaerobic or aerobic. We literally cannot keep up with them.
All we can do ourselves is provide the right environment for our plants to hopefully thrive.

Hope some of what I said was helpful.

All the best and good luck. Much love.

 

[waktoo]

Reading on the internet, people debate the effectiveness of adding microbes to the soil with microbial teas etc. stating that since microbes multiple so quickly, there really isn’t much of a valid use case for adding them in teas. And that also, so many of them are “invasive” and not local that it doesn’t make sense to allow them to breed out of control before adding.
From my understanding, organic soil is better on run 10 then run 1, assuming your adding organic fertilizers as needed to replenish.
What are all the reasons for this?

I hypothesize it's due to the fact that we're adding way too much lime to these soil mixes, and people aren't monitoring the soil pH as it cycles after the initial mix in order to plant into it at the appropriate time.

As the excess lime is used up over successive grows, the soil's pH begins to swing down into the more "acidic" range preferred by cannabis (~6).

Lime doesn't react directly with the acidity in the soil solution. It's slowly dissolved into it's ionic constituents by contact with water, which then allows the carbonate to react with hydrogen ions in solution. This happens more quickly than one might imagine, irregardless of the presence of plants growing in the soil at the time.

 

[Northwood]

From my understanding, organic soil is better on run 10 then run 1, assuming your adding organic fertilizers as needed to replenish.

I think this is only true if the intent is building your soil in more of a no-till situation. And even in no-till the soil can be ruined over time by continually adding much more than your plants removed from it each grow, especially with something that contains phosphorus, which incidentally includes all organic material. Achieving some kind of rough balance over time can be difficult indoors in a bed or pot, but it can be done.

By building the soil, I mean having bacteria glue together particles of minerals and stable organic matter into little chunks called aggregates that improve the drainage and nutrient holding capacity of the soil over time. That's why in a optimally managed no-till, drainage amendments really can be thought of as just a temporary solution until you can achieve this goal - also called "tillage" among farmers. It does take a lot of time and many grow cycles to get to that point though. Most of the carbon is your soil will be released as CO2 by bacteria, and only a very small amount of it will end up in more stable forms.

 

[Stoney Bear94]

I think this is only true if the intent is building your soil in more of a no-till situation. And even in no-till the soil can be ruined over time by continually adding much more than your plants removed from it each grow, especially with something that contains phosphorus, which incidentally includes all organic material. Achieving some kind of rough balance over time can be difficult indoors in a bed or pot, but it can be done.

By building the soil, I mean having bacteria glue together particles of minerals and stable organic matter into little chunks called aggregates that improve the drainage and nutrient holding capacity of the soil over time. That's why in a optimally managed no-till, drainage amendments really can be thought of as just a temporary solution until you can achieve this goal - also called "tillage" among farmers. It does take a lot of time and many grow cycles to get to that point though. Most of the carbon is your soil will be released as CO2 by bacteria, and only a very small amount of it will end up in more stable forms.

This is exactly what I was looking to understand. So it’s more about how much nutrient breakdown has occurred in the soil. You can have 100% capacity of microbes in both new and old soil, however the longer they have been there breaking down carbon, the more aggregates build up making the soil most dope.
Is this the right summarization?

 

[Aussieaceae]

This is exactly what I was looking to understand. So it’s more about how much nutrient breakdown has occurred in the soil. You can have 100% capacity of microbes in both new and old soil, however the longer they have been there breaking down carbon, the more aggregates build up making the soil most dope.
Is this the right summarization?

Sort of.

But think more in the lines of a dry barren desert.

Organic carbon is essentially organics and life as we know it.

Even additives like limes I'd consider organic. They have a bit of a smell right? What's to say the lime isn't a source of microbes as well?

If nature made it and can live in it, I consider it "organic" myself.

But you also want the rich organic matter as well. Materials like manure not only hold nutrient, microbes and water. But provide structure via carbon as well.
It's all balance.

 

[Northwood]

This is exactly what I was looking to understand. So it’s more about how much nutrient breakdown has occurred in the soil. You can have 100% capacity of microbes in both new and old soil, however the longer they have been there breaking down carbon, the more aggregates build up making the soil most dope.
Is this the right summarization?

Well yeah! (Kind of.)

You can have 100% microbial activity in soil rather quickly if your initial mix has enough food for them, and it's warm and moist. By quickly I mean within days at most even if you relied on the air in your house and the organic material itself as your "inoculant". But it's not the nutrient breakdown and mineralization of organic material itself that does this (although your current growing plants need that!), it's the little bit of carbon left over after that which is transformed into more stable forms that build soil tilth.

The more stable carbon, the more for bacteria to treat like minerals instead of eating it, gluing it together into those aggregates that are so good for drainage and improving CEC (caption exchange capacity). Think of CEC like your nutrient buffer. There's always too much of something and not enough of something else - nature isn't perfect. lol But when charged surfaces can exchange that which is "stuck to them" and required and taken away for something else in excess, then self-regulation happens with plant roots for nutrient uptake even if things aren't right. I'm not sure if I explained that right. I'm thinking maybe not? Lol

 

[myke]

Most excellent,so sitting here on a hash buzz,what happens when we leave our home made soil mixes to cook for 6 mo- a year?Will it eventually just run out and die?

 

[MintyDreadlocks]

Imagine that your soil is a civilization.

Imagine you're a couple of microbes starting a civilization when you start with new peat, new compost, etc. You're too small to even be considered a town, let alone a city.

Over time, the people/microbes breed, civilization grows and so the need for a larger town becomes necessary. Eventually, your town becomes a city, and then eventually a full blown metropolis. With highways, freeways, everything you'd expect of a metropolis.

Starting with new soil is like a small town. Soil that has been in no-till for years? Los Angeles.

You ought to be the writer for a "weed for dummies" book

 

[Northwood]

Materials like manure not only hold nutrient, microbes and water. But provide structure via carbon as well.

I'd be careful with animal manure IMO. It's not compost, but a digested form of organic material which bacteria have already also digested internally within the animal, and containing many excesses that the animal excreted in urine as well such as sodium. It's powerful stuff in any case, at least much more powerful than plant material that hasn't been digested. One poop = quite a bit of raw vegetable matter! Yeah it is not completely broken down and non-internal bacteria might take a bite, but it's mostly full of nutrients and nitrogen (to feed bacteria along with a high carbon source additive), which is great if you're lacking. I used organic hen manure in my initial mix and a top dressing for my first cycle for this reason, but I personally avoided animal manures in subsequent cycles. My plants have been vegetarians for the last 6 grow cycles. lol

 

[MintyDreadlocks]

Most excellent,so sitting here on a hash buzz,what happens when we leave our home made soil mixes to cook for 6 mo- a year?Will it eventually just run out and die?

Yes if not cared for and kept at the right conditions. Otherwise no. if cared for.

 

[myke]

Yes if not cared for and kept at the right conditions. Otherwise no. if cared for.

So if cared for would this benefit the micro heard since normally newish soil is low?
cheers.

 

[Aussieaceae]

I'd be careful with animal manure IMO. It's not compost, but a digested form of organic material which bacteria have already also digested internally within the animal, and containing many excesses that the animal excreted in urine as well such as sodium. It's powerful stuff in any case, at least much more powerful than plant material that hasn't been digested. One poop = quite a bit of raw vegetable matter! Yeah it is not completely broken down and non-internal bacteria might take a bite, but it's mostly full of nutrients and nitrogen (to feed bacteria along with a high carbon source additive), which is great if you're lacking. I used organic hen manure in my initial mix and a top dressing for my first cycle for this reason, but I personally avoided animal manures in subsequent cycles. My plants have been vegetarians for the last 6 grow cycles. lol

I agree, though it also depends a lot on what they eat..

Manures in general are best from a grazer.

We often forget once upon a time what these animals were. And still are an important source of organic matter and diversity.

Nothing wrong with urea at all. Or the animal's own digestive flora. It's all food for the soil microbes.
Even the animal's own carcass.
Again it's about balance.

Organic carbon in the form of plant matter is #1

 

[MintyDreadlocks]

So if cared for would this benefit the micro heard since normally newish soil is low?
cheers.

Yeah taking a new soil base you could add dry amendments and keep soil at right temps and moisture and work the soil occasionally. A member here told me how they just add dry amendments to plain used fox farm soil and just water the soil and after a few months its full of life again. aka recycling. theyll leave the stem in the pot from the last harvest and by the time the soil is full of life there is no more roots and the stem comes out like butter.

 

[Northwood]

Most excellent,so sitting here on a hash buzz,what happens when we leave our home made soil mixes to cook for 6 mo- a year?Will it eventually just run out and die?

Eventually the bacteria and fungi and everything else runs out of food and becomes dormant if conditions keep it alive until then. You'll have a lot of available nutrients in your soil that otherwise would have gradually been available to your plants, but the amount depends on the potential nutrients in your initial inputs. In no-till, usually we add stuff knowing it will feed the next cycle, or even the one after that. So you'll definitely need to add more food for the microbes, and flush out any excess nutrients not held tightly by your soil if you want to think ahead more than a month or two. TBH, I've never let my soil "cook" before.

 

[Aussieaceae]

Most excellent,so sitting here on a hash buzz,what happens when we leave our home made soil mixes to cook for 6 mo- a year?Will it eventually just run out and die?

Eventually maybe, in theory. It certainly won't be as active.

But if there isn't anywhere for water, nutrient or organic matter to drain to. Most of what you added is still contained.