Why does organic soil get better over time?

[Northwood]

Manures in general are best from a grazer.

We often forget once upon a time these animals were. And still are an important source of organic matter and diversity.

Yes I agree, however on a properly managed sustainable pasture, the cows do not poop on average any more nutrients than what was eaten where the plants they ate grew. It's literally a balance. Adding a couple pounds of cow manure to an indoor grow in a 15 gallon pot is another story. How many square feet in pasture area does a cow eat to produce 2 pounds of manure? Yeah, hence we need to be careful with it!

And also be aware that much manure comes from feed lots (beef indoors) that don't represent pasture grass conversion, but instead feed containing additives that include more sodium and other mineral supplements that are excreted, even if designated "organic". No company I know of creates manure by collecting paddy's in a pasture in North America (unless you did it yourself).

 

[Aussieaceae]

Yes I agree, however on a properly managed sustainable pasture, the cows do not poop on average any more nutrients than what was eaten where the plants they ate grew. It's literally a balance. Adding a couple pounds of cow manure to an indoor grow in a 15 gallon pot is another story. How many square feet in pasture area does a cow eat to produce 2 pounds of manure? Yeah, hence we need to be careful with it!

And also be aware that much manure comes from feed lots (beef indoors) that don't represent pasture grass conversion, but instead feed containing additives that include more sodium and other mineral supplements that are excreted, even if designated "organic". No company I know of creates manure by collecting paddy's in a pasture in North America (unless you did it yourself).

Was I specific about which manure though?

I'd probably consider manure from a meat eater the most risky. Closely followed by predominantly fruit eating animals and omnivores.

In context of this thread I'm happy to refer to it as feces, dung, or guano if you prefer?

Please, let's save our own opinions and advice for OP.

 

[Kassiopeija]

What's to say the lime isn't a source of microbes as well?

there are indeed stone-munching "bacteria" around, so called chemo-litho-(photo)-autotroph extremophile archaees. They -just like plants- can solve minerals out of stone and eat that, although they need an energy source (light, volcano, hot spring)

 

[Kassiopeija]

the cows do not poop on average any more nutrients than what was eaten where the plants they ate grew. It's literally a balance.

I know what you mean and generally agree but I guess it's not that easy since water can wash out soil plus some compounds - esp. Nitrogen - can become volatile and then misses also, from the soil... You see, there's a lot of "fertilizer" right inside our atmosphere... hence atmospheric N-transfixing MO's complete the cycle (perhaps a better word for that)

 

[Aussieaceae]

I know what you mean and generally agree but I guess it's not that easy since water can wash out soil plus some compounds - esp. Nitrogen - can become volatile and then misses also, from the soil... You see, there's a lot of "fertilizer" right inside our atmosphere... hence atmospheric N-transfixing MO's complete the cycle (perhaps a better word for that)

Well said Kassiopeija.

Outdoor soil's very reliant on the local geography, for instance.

As an example. In my own circumstance I'm situated on a sandstone shelf.
My soil almost can't get enough rich organic matter.
But the sandy soil also provides for good drainage.

By no means would I apply the same amendments to a soil, if it were clay.

Everyone's circumstances are very different.
I'm of the belief myself, the same also applies to indoor organics.
If we consider what's readily available as a grower. Quality of different materials may differ as well.

 

[Kassiopeija]

Outdoor soil's very reliant on the local geography, for instance.

As an example. In my own circumstance I'm situated on a sandstone shelf.
My soil almost can't get enough rich organic matter.
But the sandy soil also provides for good drainage.

By no means would I apply the same amendments to a soil, if it were clay.

Everyone's circumstances are very different.

Could it be that a landrace mucks arounds in typical indoor poting soil as in not wanting to grow at all? The Sinai TRSB was such a culprit. What if a trace mineral is very rich locally - iron e.g. in red clay dust, then adapted and is now, hungry, or, more likely, cannot tolerate a fat substrate and excessive water, or unusual cold? How would you work if you have had to sleep out in the gutter naked?

 

[Aussieaceae]

Could it be that a landrace mucks arounds in typical indoor poting soil as in not wanting to grow at all? The Sinai TRSB was such a culprit. What if a trace mineral is very rich locally - iron e.g. in red clay dust, then adapted and is now, hungry, or, more likely, cannot tolerate a fat substrate and excessive water, or unusual cold? How would you work if you have had to sleep out in the gutter naked?

Yes.

Just my own 2 cents here-

Or maybe sodium content in an amendment is not a quality you want much of in a clay?
Cow manure mightn't be ideal for this reason in large amounts.

Especially when accounting for osmosis + the increased risk of dispersive, sodic clays.

Though the question still remains, of what rich organic materials is more available to a grower.
I believe this is different for everyone. And that it's all part of a good green thumb.

Could even be as simple a reason as affordability.
Best manure I know of myself is homemade, organic aged chicken manure. Vegging plants love it in my case.
And golly it gets my mulch breaking down quickly.
It's a fantastic "fertilizer" for my circumstance.

I'm of the opinion whether outdoor soil, or indoors, the general rules to organic gardening is still very applicable.

 

[radiant Rudy]

Trips me out that growers are totally into nurturing their soil, fetishizing their amendments and fantasizing about the benefits conferred by their unique recipes, yet there is rarely a mention of even a basic soil chemistry analysis. Biological soil assays and plant sap analysis are pretty much unheard of.

Measuring, using reliable data, comparing values is essential to knowing wtf youre talking about.

 

[Aussieaceae]

Trips me out that growers are totally into nurturing their soil, fetishizing their amendments and fantasizing about the benefits conferred by their unique recipes, yet there is rarely a mention of even a basic soil chemistry analysis. Biological soil assays and plant sap analysis are pretty much unheard of.

Measuring, using reliable data, comparing values is essential to knowing wtf youre talking about.

I agree. Very much so. All guesswork otherwise, definitely.

Though I will stress there are home tests you can do, to have a very well informed guess.

For instance both in soil texture, ph and dispersion. Soil horizon is very important as well.

It's arrogance to suggest we can "know" what the nutrient content, or chemistry is accurately without testing it.

 

[Northwood]

Measuring, using reliable data, comparing values is essential to knowing wtf youre talking about.

It would be great to get a tissue analysis done for the purpose of periodically determining if our soils are improving (or accumulating something undesirable) in our no-tills. Unfortunately I don't know of any accredited lab in my country where the public can send in cannabis sample material for this purpose. The labs who went to the trouble of licensing for cannabis all cater exclusively to licensed producers that I know of.

Then again, then general public here is only permitted to grow 4 plants by law and perhaps it's a bit overkill anyway, particularly if your plants seem healthy and growing without issue.

I know it's a completely different story for the 3 year transition to organic certification for farmers (at least in Nova Scotia) because you're forced to do it as part of your transition program. Nutrient deficiencies are easy to correct over time, but if your samples are flagged for excessive cadmium, lead, arsenic, etc., you'll need to sell your farm and move your operation elsewhere.

 

[Northwood]

It's arrogance to suggest we can "know" what the nutrient content, or chemistry is accurately without testing it.

I agree to some extent. But if your plants are healthy and growing better in cycle 20 than than in cycle 2 of your no-till and there has been no perceptible slowdown of organic material cycling, then we're probably "okay". After growing plants for many years we get attuned to them and learn to recognize at least if they're healthy or being held back by something.

We're probably "overthinking this".

Unless you're looking for a basic or "standard" soil test which provides organic growers with little useful information, you'll be paying a lot more. Consider basic Solvita CO2 Burst or SLAN tests that are actually useful to us. Each little test individually costs upwards of $25 dollars each here in Canada. It adds up. Obviously if you're a micro licensed commercial grower or even have a medical license to grow medicine for others, I'd strongly recommend ponying up the coin and getting it done periodically.

 

[Aussieaceae]

I agree to some extent. But if your plants are healthy and growing better in cycle 20 than than in cycle 2 of your no-till and there has been no perceptible slowdown of organic material cycling, then we're probably "okay". After growing plants for many years we get attuned to them and learn to recognize at least if they're healthy or being held back by something.

We're probably "overthinking this".

Unless you're looking for a basic or "standard" soil test which provides organic growers with little useful information, you'll be paying a lot more. Consider basic Solvita CO2 Burst or SLAN tests that are actually useful to us. Each little test individually costs upwards of $25 dollars each here in Canada. It adds up. Obviously if you're a micro licensed commercial grower or even have a medical license to grow medicine for others, I'd strongly recommend ponying up the coin and getting it done periodically.

Your opinion is respected Northwood. I'll make sure to take it onboard.

School of Horticulture is where I'm basing my own education and theory from.
They're ancient tests we can do ourselves at home. And they're taught to be very important tests to conduct to all hort students.
I would still do these tests myself. Along with similar tests to what you describe.
More data the better. And the more complete the given picture.

I'm far from an industry professional too. Even though I studied through a government school. Truly.

Best I am is a mostly annual, outdoor grower. And i've been enjoying winging it for about 15 years.

I'm the lazy, Mr Wing-it, see what happens grower. And I very much enjoy growing that way.
Mistakes have taught me much. Still do. And teach me something I don't know, every single time.
It is my hobby.

Many different circumstances and many different needs. But we're all greenthumbs here sharing relevant information.

 

[Northwood]

School of Horticulture is where I'm basing my own education and theory from.

TBH I never took horticulture in school. I did take a few botany courses, but the science has advanced so much since I was a student in biology (early 1980s), that I had to throw out a considerable amount of what I thought we knew about plants later on. Yeah you can teach an old dog new tricks after all! lol

Take quorum sensing for example. If we had even asked if it were possible that plants could have co-evolved with bacteria to the extent of actually influencing their genetics within hours in order to mobilize them for their own needs through chemical protein signals in their exudates, our professor would have laughed at us. We've come a long way since then.

But IMO there's no need to become a biologist in order to grow good weed, or even understand the various nutrient mineralization cycles, or anything else about the "why" certain management practices work. If you can follow a recipe, you can grow good weed with practice and still have no idea what even a chloroplast is.

 

[myke]

But IMO there's no need to become a biologist in order to grow good weed, or even understand the various nutrient mineralization cycles, or anything else about the "why" certain management practices work. If you can follow a recipe, you can grow good weed with practice and still have no idea what even a chloroplast is.

No but its sure nice to read posts from you people who understand the biology and explain it in a way for us to understand.Nothing else to do with this pandemic but google some of these terms you use. Learn a little everyday,
Im a little chloroplast I think,Im always facing the sun lol.

 

[radiant Rudy]

I agree to some extent. But if your plants are healthy and growing better in cycle 20 than than in cycle 2 of your no-till and there has been no perceptible slowdown of organic material cycling, then we're probably "okay". After growing plants for many years we get attuned to them and learn to recognize at least if they're healthy or being held back by something.

We're probably "overthinking this".

Unless you're looking for a basic or "standard" soil test which provides organic growers with little useful information, you'll be paying a lot more. Consider basic Solvita CO2 Burst or SLAN tests that are actually useful to us. Each little test individually costs upwards of $25 dollars each here in Canada. It adds up. Obviously if you're a micro licensed commercial grower or even have a medical license to grow medicine for others, I'd strongly recommend ponying up the coin and getting it done periodically.

 

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Trips me out that growers are totally into nurturing their soil, fetishizing their amendments and fantasizing about the benefits conferred by their unique recipes, yet there is rarely a mention of even a basic soil chemistry analysis. Biological soil assays and plant sap analysis are pretty much unheard of.

Measuring, using reliable data, comparing values is essential to knowing wtf youre talking about.

I'm in the fetish camp, specifically in the tent that prizes most of the "work" being done in the worm bin.

I'm also a big believer in chemical and biological analysis. I would even go so far as to say if one wanted to build a soil they should have the inputs tested before they are mixed together.

I'm not going to do that as I just grow for myself and I like my fetishes, lol. But if I was wanting to go commercial and remain competitive I would absolutely do as you mention. I don't think with the price of the pound many people will be able to survive over time without that level of dialed in.

I'm nobodies expert.

 

[harrythehat]

for a bit of scientific bumpf
super soil/ organic/living soil are all examples of Abiotic stress elicitors
they help the plant in many ways
once you get dialled in to what you are using improvements are pretty good

 

[Stoney Bear94]

Here’s the start of run 2 - reusing FFHF with added pumice, ewc, compost, azomite, cover crops, oyster shell, kelp meal, Dolomite and a few blue dream seeds poppin up

 

[Northwood]

View attachment 4760882

That's just childish. But learning more science might change your mind. It's not your enemy regardless of your politics.

 

[ComfortCreator]

My own 2 cents worth here. As mainly an outdoor no till, organic grower.

The microbes are definitely important. But more important is somewhere for them to flourish. This environment is achieved through the combination of rich organic matter, organic carbon, microbial diversity and good soil aeration.
A microbial tea mostly doesn't supply these. It's just h2O and specific microbes. It lacks the same structure, organic matter / carbon and diversity.

I don't feel there's anything wrong at all with a tea. Only I'm of the belief you can achieve the same goal, if not potentially better. By adding the tea ingredients straight to your soil, instead of only by means of a tea.
It is better for the indigenous microbes.
I will always favor indigenous microbiology, before I introduce it. I believe in theory it's better in the long term. Both for the grower and native environment.

Organic Carbon is the most important thing for an organic soil.
Even for indoor soil, I'd choose whole organic materials as my source of microbes and nutrient, before considering a tea.
A tea should be treated as a top up tonic or supplement, in my opinion.
It's a quick temporary fix. Or to maintain.

Trivial information here. But bacteria can double in numbers every 30 - 60 minutes, given the ideal environment. Whether anaerobic or aerobic. We literally cannot keep up with them.
All we can do ourselves is provide the right environment for our plants to hopefully thrive.

Hope some of what I said was helpful.

All the best and good luck. Much love.

I appreciate your information and have a question.

I am indoors, organic soil no adding nutes, transplant twice and topdress twice inflower with the same supersoil.

I am not no till, but i do create and amend my own soil. Given that set of parameters, how can I best innoculate the soil with the best possible microbe mix?

Thank you in advance!
Cc