Why is defoliation so controversial?

kwigybo88

Well-Known Member
So can you offer proof to what you've just said as you've just put a "broscience" label to someone else when, indeed, you are mixing up terms (defoliation with lollipopping).
Have you ever seen grows from noobs trying to defol from the bottom up? With only fanleaves at the tops. I've seen this and it makes m LOL. So the whole light either gets absorbed by the first order of leaves (overhelming them) or, if passing through, will just heat up the pot or soil....

Let's assume you really have a leafy plant - that has 10 levels of leaves. If I remove the top level of fanleaves - it WILL NOT result in less photosynthesis - as the light is simply absorbed by leaves of a lesser order. So if, at least, there's a closed canopy - all light will be captured by the leaves.

And it seems like a no-brainer if one outlights the whole plant - not just the top 20cm....
Dont be ridiculous and obtuse. Lollipopping is a colloquial term for a specific form of defoliation. Or is it not the removal of foliage? I think you'll find it is.

To your second point, your bizarre example, it absolutely will result in a net loss of photosynthesis as a result of distance from light source to canopy, all things being equal.
 

kwigybo88

Well-Known Member
Like I said, that statement was based on observations and not science. Obviously as time went on I became a better grower and got better lights. So perhaps it’s like the ice cream vs murder conundrum lol. Bottom line is there are professional growers a lot better than myself that do some very aggressive strips in flower and are pumping out insane yields.

I’ll tAke the word of someone running 100+ light facilities over a random riu avatar that offers no proof and that’s not a shot at ya Kwigi
Appeal to authority fallacy. Far more professional growers do NOT heavily defoliate their plants. You know what do have in common? Overlit gardens.

Take whoever's word you like. If you're happy doing it by all means. But there's no credible science behind it.

Cheers.
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Dape Green

Well-Known Member
Appeal to authority fallacy. Far more professional growers do NOT heavily defoliate their plants. You know what do have in common? Overlit gardens.

Take whoever's word you like. If you're happy doing it by all means. But there's no credible science behind it.

Cheers.
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I’m not sold on either way to be honest. Last mono run I did I mixed it up and the difference was negligible. Was a great crop too.

Many ways to skin this cat brother. As long as ourselves and the people we care for enjoy it, we win.
 

FastFreddi

Well-Known Member
So can you offer proof to what you've just said as you've just put a "broscience" label to someone else when, indeed, you are mixing up terms (defoliation with lollipopping).
Have you ever seen grows from noobs trying to defol from the bottom up? With only fanleaves at the tops. I've seen this and it makes m LOL. So the whole light either gets absorbed by the first order of leaves (overhelming them) or, if passing through, will just heat up the pot or soil....

Let's assume you really have a leafy plant - that has 10 levels of leaves. If I remove the top level of fanleaves - it WILL NOT result in less photosynthesis - as the light is simply absorbed by leaves of a lesser order. So if, at least, there's a closed canopy - all light will be captured by the leaves.

And it seems like a no-brainer if one outlights the whole plant - not just the top 20cm....
I think all are making great points, and I say if it works in a satisfactory way for you, then do it.
FF
 

BBQtoast

Well-Known Member
One guy worked heavily on defoliating clones, he found some was good so got carried away then found too much is bad.

Lots of trim methods work better but some have gone too far and even heavily defoliating it's not hard to pull good yields and try to convince everyone it's better.

Lollipop ping is when the bottom of the plant doesn't produce much and doesn't get much light. It was just to tidy up save getting some popcorn and hopefully more bud up top. You could out yeild it with sog, why defoliate plants claiming yeild when there are better methods to bigger yeilds in quicker times.

No argument I agree both ways a little but arguing yeilds when a sog no trim does even better - c'mon small points.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Or is it not the removal of foliage? I think you'll find it is.
Well, the way I do defoliate is to prune leaves - fan-leaves - away. When I lollipopp then I also take the shoots away - I rub the stems actually, to sort of tell the plant "do not grow new shoots here". I find both techniques have some similarities but also striking differences - so that's why we use different words, it's different.

Lollipopping is good for SCROGS - or densely filled canopies - where the stuff under the net won't get any light. So take it away, then the top buds will get better. And less hassle with popcorn or hash-making. Creates just more "for the bag".

Defoliation is tricky as there a several techniques which are basically the same - plucking off of leaves - just @ a different intensity.
Lowest would be 'selective pruning' - usually dysfunctional leaves.
Middle defoliation - which one should do in such a manner that still the canopy looks fully green as seen from above. This way, all direct light will hit a leaf right away - mitigating "reflection-loss".
Heavier form would be swazzing - where the latter point is ignored. This is done to increase the number of shoots, ultimately colas. Very suitable technique for commercial growers which need best 'bag appeal' - uniform smaller nugs.

Do you know that thick colas hold an enormous potential for the start of a pathogenic infection, like botrytis? Got hardly any airflow inside... beware of temp fluctuations when light goes off, just a good-ment word of advise.

To your second point, your bizarre example, it absolutely will result in a net loss of photosynthesis as a result of distance from light source to canopy, all things being equal.
In an open scenario - perhaps. But, in your situation - a closed tent with reflective walls - where shall the photons escape too? Light is energy and ther laws of physics state, this cannot be lost. The light just flies to another leaf - which absorb like 90% inside your growroom of the total radiant flux emitted.

There is a common mis-conception about the nature of light, when ppl claime it gets "weaker" by distance, and some therefore even try the point-blank range. And they falsely interpret the readings from their meters - which usually calculates for a m^2 - that is a plane.




With HPS you need distance as the source of light is singular, and thus, the light particles are together very densely distributed. But this distance doesn't incorporate any loss, as visible light particles can easily travel through our atmosphere and arrive equally at its target. To spread light out makes extremely sense, and is the reason why the current state-of-the-art lighting systems use a very high number of these cingular sources - to have the light be spread out *right from the start*. But no misunderstanding - the photon count stays the same. Light travels endlessly without a loss. The photons do not get lost - they just get distributed over a greater areal; which, in the above cases, is limited by the room.

My friend you are growing some heavy stuff - what is this for a strain/breeder? The plants have very little leaves so the light can reach down and you are growing thsee kind of "towers". Defoliation in your case is absolutely not necessary, but strains are different. Especially indica dom. strains can shadow their middle parts greatly.
 
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twentyeight.threefive

Well-Known Member
Why is defoliation so controversial? Because not everyone grows the same way. People get fixated, egotistical, or even are just ignorant. They begin to believe their way is the only proper way to grow.

If you are pulling in monster crops, fantastic! I wish you the best, but don't forget there are other people other there doing the same, but in a different way. :eyesmoke:
 

Buddernugs

Well-Known Member
Ya dude I Swazz as well just pulled 20oz off 1 fem blue dream from ilgm no topping no fimming no bud boosters just swazz in veg then 1st day of flower then again at day 21 into flower and a shit ton of plant ties lol not bad for a 7 week veg from seed and never breaking 850ppms
 

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TintEastwood

Well-Known Member

Dape Green

Well-Known Member

osowhom

Well-Known Member
Small....think of it like this.
You install solar panels on your home's roof, st everything to power the household.
Take one or a few of those panels away, less power to run the house.
Understand?
Peace.
FF
but if you install a panel on the shady corner of your roof it wont get any sun just like the lower bud sites it really depends on the plant and the way you grow i take off a big fan here and there and expose the lower sites
 

osowhom

Well-Known Member
Ya dude I Swazz as well just pulled 20oz off 1 fem blue dream from ilgm no topping no fimming no bud boosters just swazz in veg then 1st day of flower then again at day 21 into flower and a shit ton of plant ties lol not bad for a 7 week veg from seed and never breaking 850ppms
right now i have 5 going 1 scwazzed and topped 2 left alone 1 lolliopped and 1 lollipopped and topped and light defolite lrt you know in late february
 

yummy fur

Well-Known Member
Why is defoliation controversial? Because most people haven't thought it through, or don't understand it or use their "common sense". It's common sense that the sun goes around the earth. Except that it doesn't. Will a punch from Deontay Wilder, hurt you? If that you is you, then yes, if that 'you' is Tyson Fury, then no.

Will defoliation hurt a weak plant. Yes. Will defoliation hurt a strong plant. No. So you need to go a little deeper. The fact of the matter is that under the right circumstances, defoliation will give you better quality final product. Unless your final product is weed leaf smoothy, in which case no, you'll want a lot of nice healthy green leaves. But I think it's safe to say that people who grow weed, are interested in heavily trichomed buds, they may be dense, or they may be less dense, but they will want lots of juicy balls of goodness.

I only have experience growing hydro shallow water culture in perfect conditions, without extra C02. By perfect condition that means that you'll want your roots to be extensive and feathery and white. If you manage that then you'll have a healthy plant with big juicy green leaves, and you can defoliate those leaves right from when the plant is 2-3 weeks old.

Now I've seen very healthy indoor plants grown in soil in a felt pot, that have been healthy enough to defoliate just as much, but I have no experience in that.

Any grower who knows how to grow top quality weed, will have a plant that is healthy enough that it will need/benefit from regular defoliation.

So why is defoliation controversial? Why is the us presidential election "controversial". Answer; it isn't, expect to idiots.
 

Jumpin Jimmy

Well-Known Member
So I recently started up my 1st grow and around day 21F I did a heavy defoliation and they seem well and healthy still but a lot of people are saying the heavy defoliation severally hurt my plants? They look perfectly okay to me? I’m a first time grower and don’t care much for yield I’d rather grow quality flower. Do they look like they have a problem at all?
Don’t listen to the naysayers. They are just spouting off preloaded responses they’ve read in forums or they had issues defoliating too much or on AN unhealthy plant and it didn’t work so well for them. Indoors and defoliation in flower go hand in hand if you want density and yield without a bunch of larf. My yields are much heavier with two defoliation in flower and that goes for 9 out of 10 strains easily. I defoliate at around day 21 like you did and again between day 35-40. The whole thing about leaves being solar panels and blah blah blah..all nonsense. Direct light on bud sites makes a massive difference and that’s a fact. You’ve done the right thing. As long as plant is thriving when you defoliate and there’s plenty of food in soil it is a very good thing
 

Jumpin Jimmy

Well-Known Member
Think how much more bud production would have occurred, had the plants not had to regrow those leaves...just a thought.
FF
THe plants aren’t regrowing same leaves. The plants will grow new leaves and bigger leaves in flower whether you defoliate or not. A defoliated plant will never have the leaf mass of a plant that hasn’t been defoliated. Defoliation places emphasis on bud growth. Direct light to buds is undeniably a factor is size, density, trich and terp production. Larf sucks for a reason. It’s shaded...not enough light.
 

Jumpin Jimmy

Well-Known Member
Appeal to authority fallacy. Far more professional growers do NOT heavily defoliate their plants. You know what do have in common? Overlit gardens.

Take whoever's word you like. If you're happy doing it by all means. But there's no credible science behind it.

Cheers.
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Most successufl commerical growers defoliate. Also..not everyone grows short stubby plants. Defoliation is key with large taller plants unless you want larf crap bud all over bottom half
 
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