Anyone Else Have Problems With Intense LED's and Organic Super Soil?

[myke]

Correct, both are simply Potassium Silicate. I foliar from start until the last week of flower.

Awesome I’m gonna try this. So just follow what the bottle says for the Si. Epsom is what 1 tablespoon per gallon? 3 times a week. With lights on? Thanks again.

 

[kratos015]

Awesome I’m gonna try this. So just follow what the bottle says for the Si. Epsom is what 1 tablespoon per gallon? 3 times a week. With lights on? Thanks again.

Correct on Si. Epsom is 1/4-1/2tsp per gallon to start, eventually becoming 1tbsp/gallon. Depends on plant size, etc. 2-3 times per week for me, personally. As close to lights on/lights off as possible, preferably not in the middle if it can be avoided.

As with anything else, take it easy at first and read your plants reactions before committing too much. That being said, I've never once experienced a Magnesium or Sulfur toxicity in my life.

 

[myke]

Correct on Si. Epsom is 1/4-1/2tsp per gallon to start, eventually becoming 1tbsp/gallon. Depends on plant size, etc. 2-3 times per week for me, personally. As close to lights on/lights off as possible, preferably not in the middle if it can be avoided.

As with anything else, take it easy at first and read your plants reactions before committing too much. That being said, I've never once experienced a Magnesium or Sulfur toxicity in my life.

Thank you. I will also try this in my veg garden.

 

[DankTankerous]

Same. Had 25g no-till pots that I started plants in, then gave to the Mrs. for veggies. Lasted years, never used a bottle of CalMag either.




I do, both Mag and Sulfur play a large role in terms of the production terpenes (as well as Potassium). I spray with 1/4-1/2tsp Epsom Salts and ProTekt 2-3 times a week for this exact reason. So, to answer your question yes I do foliar with Epsom Salts. But not typically to cure Mg deficiencies, but for the benefits it has on the flavor of anything growing in your soil.

Consider the "Terpinator" product people use; it's pretty much just potassium sulfate.

Similar to protein in our bodies. We can do just fine with the minimum daily recommended values of protein, but with proper exercise our bodies will certainly make use of extra.

I've told numerous people to do a side by side test with and without Epsom Salt+ProTekt foliar feed and the difference is quite noticeable, not just for me. The weed is one thing, but a tomato or cucumber actually tasting like how lotion or some shit smells is nuts. So much flavor, and the smell of a freshly cut cucumber is nuts. Granted, my sole mineral input in my soil is also Basalt which is a sulfuric rock. I started running Basalt as the full 4c/cuft for my mineral amendment when Coot's said he did the same, he chose to eliminate Gypsum and GRD entirely.

Excluding a pH lockout, Sulfur deficiency is quite rare. However, I've never noticed once ill effects from foliar feeding with Epsom salts at the frequency that I do despite the fact that I use both Basalt and TM7. Hell, even ignoring the Epsom Salts, running Basalt as my sole mineral input has shown a difference in flavor/taste.



As for the worm bin being inside my house, it was sadly. They were kicking ass until summer got so brutal my swamp cooler couldn't even keep up. Hottest day of that year where I live was 133, I shit you not. Entire month was 110F+ weather. Only my bedroom, grow room and office had window units in them. Wasn't enough room for the worm bin in any of those rooms, and I naively believed the swamp cooler would be good enough for the worms. Humans are different. 90-95F feels pretty cool when compared to 110+, sadly the worms disagreed.

I still feel bad about it, thousands upon thousands of poor worms died. Can't change what happened, but I can change what happens the next time around. I won't be running a worm bin until I'm able to buy my own place in another few months. The plan is to build (or better yet, buy a place that already has a large shed/garage) a room for my hash factory. Can't make hash properly in 80F+ weather. A room that is good enough to house a hash making facility will be plenty good enough for a large 4x16ft flow through worm bin. Until I have the space and means to treat the worms properly, I'll be sticking to the compost at my local Ace Hardware.

so here’s a huge question when does Calcium stop being a buffer and start being a nutrient?

Correct, both are simply Potassium Silicate. I foliar from start until the last week of flower.

you foliar until the last week of flower? Wouldn’t that get into your flower? Cause mold?

 

[Northwood]

My 2 cents on Epsom salts. I've never used it, and the reason is because the chances of me having a deficiency only in both Mg & S in the balance that Epsom salts would address for me would be like winning a lottery. Like what are the chances? lol

If a soil test shows you're low in S, add elemental sulfur IMO as indicated, and buffer accordingly. But that would be rare as unobtainium if you feed organic biomass to your grow as mulch/amendments (or compost). Mg deficiencies are rare too but can occur if you overdo the potassium. Adding highly soluble salts will not fix it if that's the case.

IMO, rather than guessing with the additions of very soluble and powerful salts, it might be better to get the same results from organic matter additions. This is the organic section I think, but sometimes I seriously wonder if I haven't accidently entered the wrong forum on the site. lol

 

[oill]

I just posted most of this as a reply in another thread but now I actually want to see if anyone else has had similar results. At the start of the year I Built a new grow room and decided to go with 6 new HLG 320 QB XL LED's for my flower room. I also decided to go with organics/water only super soils (tried a lot of them including my own super hot mix). This past year of growing has been a nightmare for me in terms of loss of money and time plus the stress of my efforts not paying off.

The learning curve for LED's turned out to be more drastic than I was thinking. I cant, for the life of me, get an organic super soil dialed in with these intense LED's. The LED's make the plants eat the nutrients waaaayyyy before the plants are finished flowering. I've tried so many different Super Soils including mainstream ones like Build-A-Soil 3.0 and I cant seem to get through a full cycle with water only. Even with extra amended organic forms of cal-mag.

It'll get to where ill have to start adding synthetic Cal-Mag to actually see results then they'll start showing deficiencies again to the point to where ill have to start adding salt based nutes (megacrop) with extra cal-mag to fix my issues and by that time im hand watering because I don't have a specific plan as what to fill my res with (was using blumats). It just got to the point where I was forcing the plants to grow and trying my hardest just to keep them somewhat healthy. I like my plants to absolutely thrive. Also my yields are ridiculously low compared to what they should be. I feel like the only way I could make it work is to have a huge no till bed or at least use 10 gallon containers at a minimum and thats just too much space for the amount of plants im running at that point.

I could go on and on about the huge amount of money i've wasted this past year trying to unsuccessfully get an Organic Super Soil dialed in but bottom line is it just became too much of a pain in the ass to manage. With coco and salt based nutes, I can dial everything in pretty easily and run the amount of plants I want in the space I have.

I'll never hate on the quality or the taste of the herb with Organics. I think its a great way to grow for a lot of people but for me and my situation, it was just too much of a headache and loss of money to run organics with LED's. I've started my first coco run while im finishing out my organic soil plants and the glow my coco plants are putting off brings me sooo much relief.

So my question is, does anyone else run top brand intense LED's with a water only super soil and have great results?

Man.. just switch to coco... liquid organic feeds on daily basis... you will never get a good run with soil and no additional nutes under led or any other lights

 

[myke]

Correct on Si. Epsom is 1/4-1/2tsp per gallon to start, eventually becoming 1tbsp/gallon. Depends on plant size, etc. 2-3 times per week for me, personally. As close to lights on/lights off as possible, preferably not in the middle if it can be avoided.

As with anything else, take it easy at first and read your plants reactions before committing too much. That being said, I've never once experienced a Magnesium or Sulfur toxicity in my life.

Ok so the si is also 1/4-1/2 tsp per gallon for foiler.So for my 500ml spray bottle thats 6 drops of si and a small pinch of epsom.
Doesnt seem like much but Ive sprayed some plants and no ill effects.

 

[Northwood]

Man.. just switch to coco... liquid organic feeds on daily basis... you will never get a good run with soil and no additional nutes under led or any other lights

I don't use additional nutes in soil over the past decade or so, and have been doing okay.

 

[kratos015]

so here’s a huge question when does Calcium stop being a buffer and start being a nutrient?



you foliar until the last week of flower? Wouldn’t that get into your flower? Cause mold?

Calcium itself isn't the buffer, but Calcium Carbonate specifically. Calcium amendments do not buffer pH unless they are Calcium Carbonate, think Oyster Shell, Dolomite Lime, and even egg shells to a lesser extent. I would imagine crustacean meal of any sort has some pH buffer, but only because it is in their shells. I cannot say for absolute certainty on that one, personally. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

Calcium Carbonate will buffer and provide nutrients, something like gypsum will only provide nutrients.

I've never experienced adverse effects using Epsom Salts, and I've only ever experienced mold with outdoor plants due to caterpillars being assholes.

My 2 cents on Epsom salts. I've never used it, and the reason is because the chances of me having a deficiency only in both Mg & S in the balance that Epsom salts would address for me would be like winning a lottery. Like what are the chances? lol

If a soil test shows you're low in S, add elemental sulfur IMO as indicated, and buffer accordingly. But that would be rare as unobtainium if you feed organic biomass to your grow as mulch/amendments (or compost). Mg deficiencies are rare too but can occur if you overdo the potassium. Adding highly soluble salts will not fix it if that's the case.

IMO, rather than guessing with the additions of very soluble and powerful salts, it might be better to get the same results from organic matter additions. This is the organic section I think, but sometimes I seriously wonder if I haven't accidently entered the wrong forum on the site. lol

I've not only never seen a S deficiency in my own garden, but I've never witnessed it in other people's gardens or even heard of anyone dealing with one!

I started foliar feeding with the Epsom Salts upon reading these articles. I noticed a difference in my final product immediately, and have done so ever since. Epsom Salts actually contain more Sulfur than they do Magnesium.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01522a069

Without Brimstone, Your Cannabis Plants are Going to Hell | The Marijuana Times

Sulfur is the third and final secondary plant nutrient. During the vegetative growth phase of your cannabis plants, sulfur is a vital building block of chlorophyll.

www.marijuanatimes.org

Magnesium and manganese affect photosynthesis, essential oil composition and phenolic compounds of Tanacetum parthenium

The accumulation of plant defense metabolites is closely associated with the concentration of nutrient elements, yet data related to the interactive e…

www.sciencedirect.com

"During Cannabis flowering, sulfur is vital to oil production and certain terpenes, such as limonene. "

"The volatile products from d-limonene contained some aromatic hydrocrabons but consisted mainly of sulfur compounds."

"Essential oil composition was altered by changing Mg and Mn levels. Deprivation of Mg also decreased the proportion of sesquiterpenes in the essential oil."




It would seem that the second article is referencing the first article I linked; the first article is a scientific article that appears to back up the claims made in the second article.

I will readily and freely admit, without these articles the idea of foliar feeding with epsom salts to increase flavor/terpenes is borderline stoner science.

However, the above articles in conjunction with the fact that most "terpinator" products on the market (not that I've ever used them) are mostly sulfur (terpinator = 95% Potassium sulfate, silver bullet = 98% sulfur, etc.), as well as my own (and many other's) personal experience has confirmed this as truth.

There's the Mg and S that a plant needs, and there's the Mg and S that the terpenes themselves need. Foliar feeding epsom salts isn't so much to fix deficiencies, but to provide extra for the plant to take advantage of.

I've always thought of Epsom Salts for plants to be similar to Protein for humans. Humans only need a minimum of ~.36g of protein per pound, however this number becomes doubled to ~.70-.80g of protein per pound if one is trying to build muscle mass. So, humans don't need more than .36g of protein to survive but they can certainly make use of excess given proper conditions.

With that in mind, this is my theory concerning Epsom Salts. Again, its just that, a theory. A stoner science sounding theory. All that I have is my (and other's) personal experience with Epsom Salt foliar feed's effects on flavor/taste, but that's it.

While the articles I listed above don't explicitly say "Epsom salts = more terps", they do explain a correlation.

It is worth mentioning, that studies related to terpenes themselves are still fairly new in the grand scheme of things. We've only just begun to scratch the surface in terms of terpene related research, and the only real reason any research pertaining to terpenes has been done is because of cannabis it seems like.



tl;dr: Epsom salt foliar feeds are not to cure deficiencies, but to aid in "bulking" terpene production. Try a side by side and see for yourself.

 

[DankTankerous]

Calcium itself isn't the buffer, but Calcium Carbonate specifically. Calcium amendments do not buffer pH unless they are Calcium Carbonate, think Oyster Shell, Dolomite Lime, and even egg shells to a lesser extent. I would imagine crustacean meal of any sort has some pH buffer, but only because it is in their shells. I cannot say for absolute certainty on that one, personally. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

Calcium Carbonate will buffer and provide nutrients, something like gypsum will only provide nutrients.

I've never experienced adverse effects using Epsom Salts, and I've only ever experienced mold with outdoor plants due to caterpillars being assholes.




I've not only never seen a S deficiency in my own garden, but I've never witnessed it in other people's gardens or even heard of anyone dealing with one!

I started foliar feeding with the Epsom Salts upon reading these articles. I noticed a difference in my final product immediately, and have done so ever since. Epsom Salts actually contain more Sulfur than they do Magnesium.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/ja01522a069

Without Brimstone, Your Cannabis Plants are Going to Hell | The Marijuana Times

Sulfur is the third and final secondary plant nutrient. During the vegetative growth phase of your cannabis plants, sulfur is a vital building block of chlorophyll.

www.marijuanatimes.org

Magnesium and manganese affect photosynthesis, essential oil composition and phenolic compounds of Tanacetum parthenium

The accumulation of plant defense metabolites is closely associated with the concentration of nutrient elements, yet data related to the interactive e…

www.sciencedirect.com

"During Cannabis flowering, sulfur is vital to oil production and certain terpenes, such as limonene. "

"The volatile products from d-limonene contained some aromatic hydrocrabons but consisted mainly of sulfur compounds."

"Essential oil composition was altered by changing Mg and Mn levels. Deprivation of Mg also decreased the proportion of sesquiterpenes in the essential oil."




It would seem that the second article is referencing the first article I linked; the first article is a scientific article that appears to back up the claims made in the second article.

I will readily and freely admit, without these articles the idea of foliar feeding with epsom salts to increase flavor/terpenes is borderline stoner science.

However, the above articles in conjunction with the fact that most "terpinator" products on the market (not that I've ever used them) are mostly sulfur (terpinator = 95% Potassium sulfate, silver bullet = 98% sulfur, etc.), as well as my own (and many other's) personal experience has confirmed this as truth.

There's the Mg and S that a plant needs, and there's the Mg and S that the terpenes themselves need. Foliar feeding epsom salts isn't so much to fix deficiencies, but to provide extra for the plant to take advantage of.

I've always thought of Epsom Salts for plants to be similar to Protein for humans. Humans only need a minimum of ~.36g of protein per pound, however this number becomes doubled to ~.70-.80g of protein per pound if one is trying to build muscle mass. So, humans don't need more than .36g of protein to survive but they can certainly make use of excess given proper conditions.

With that in mind, this is my theory concerning Epsom Salts. Again, its just that, a theory. A stoner science sounding theory. All that I have is my (and other's) personal experience with Epsom Salt foliar feed's effects on flavor/taste, but that's it.

While the articles I listed above don't explicitly say "Epsom salts = more terps", they do explain a correlation.

It is worth mentioning, that studies related to terpenes themselves are still fairly new in the grand scheme of things. We've only just begun to scratch the surface in terms of terpene related research, and the only real reason any research pertaining to terpenes has been done is because of cannabis it seems like.



tl;dr: Epsom salt foliar feeds are not to cure deficiencies, but to aid in "bulking" terpene production. Try a side by side and see for yourself.

I would rather err on the side of caution seeing as my place has high humidity because of the way it cools and heats the air (by water). Wouldn’t watering with epsom salt be just fine?

how often do you top dress with gypsum? My soil has gypsum in the soil, but build a soil’s “build a flower” has all of the minerals that my coot’s mix has. Do those minerals deplete that easily? What about bio char? Does that deplete in a cycle or after a cycle?

 

[myke]

Along the lines of LED I’ve noticed if a plant goes from MH to led the stems show some purple after a few days?

 

[Northwood]

the first article is a scientific article that appears to back up the claims made in the second article.

I don't see any relevance there, but maybe you posted a wrong link? Anyway, the good news is if you overdo those salts, you can always flush and then feed with AN Bloom at just half strength to start. lol *kidding*

Sulfur is one of the most important elements that a plant requires for a number of purposes. Chlorophyll wouldn't be able to be made without it, and also most plant enzymes, including complex molecules that signal bacteria from its root exudates. A radish wouldn't taste like a radish without it!

Off hand, I can't think of any major terpenes that require it, since even the biosynthesis of the most common myrcene involves a crazy chain of pyrophosphate precursors without any sulfur needed. But obviously even that process wouldn't take place without sulfur around, cause your plant will have died already.

If you've added any amount of organic material to your grow in the form of organic biomass, compost, or ewcs, then you have nothing to worry about as far as sulfur is concerned. I feel it's one of those things that shouldn't be worried about unless you see symptoms of deficiency and get it confirmed with a soil analysis.

It's not always good to be "proactive", especially when certain nutrients can get difficult to get rid of in excess. That's why I feel that more is not always better, particularly in no-till where your nutrient balance affects many future grow cycles and years - not weeks until harvest.

I guess in the end it comes down to if you want to supply sufficient sulfur and other nutrients to your plants using water soluble salts or by using organic material to feed bacteria that will in-turn feed your plants the sulfur in whatever amount it wants at the time.

 

[Northwood]

Along the lines of LED I’ve noticed if a plant goes from MH to led the stems show some purple after a few days?

If a plant gets a bit too much light and stems are exposed, they will produce more anthocyanins that usually turn out to be purple or reddish in cannabis plants. This is a natural protective action that almost all green plants have.

 

[myke]

If a plant gets a bit too much light and stems are exposed, they will produce more anthocyanins that usually turn out to be purple or reddish in cannabis plants. This is a natural protective action that almost all green plants have.

I did not know that,built in sunscreen.Thanks.

 

[myke]

If a plant gets a bit too much light and stems are exposed, they will produce more anthocyanins that usually turn out to be purple or reddish in cannabis plants. This is a natural protective action that almost all green plants have.

Interesting,Ive noticed plants that Ive grown in hydro with the same LED not show this purple.Now that Ive switched to organic these same plants go purple.Is it because the hydro stems are more water logged?

 

[Northwood]

I did not know that,built in sunscreen.Thanks.

Honestly it can be caused by other stress too, including underwatering and certain nutrient issues. Of course when the plant enters its last stage of life, it turns off chlorophyll production and the senescence causes the carotenoids and anthocyanins show themselves.

A nutrient issue will affect more than stem color. More often it's due to genetics if your plant is still growing well. There's nothing wrong with it and shoud be kept off the worry list.

 

[Northwood]

Interesting,Ive noticed plants that Ive grown in hydro with the same LED not show this purple.Now that Ive switched to organic these same plants go purple.Is it because the hydro stems are more water logged?

It could be a spectrum difference between the lights that causes it with whatever lights you had and switched to. On the other hand, I've even seen purple stems outside on rapidly growing branches of weed, especially on days of low humidity.

TBH I've seen purplish stems and petioles in hydro and soil, regardless of lighting method. As I said, it is a no-consequence cool observation if your plant is overwise healthy.

It's not like an emergency that you need to run out to buy a bottle of something to fix.

 

[DankTankerous]

I just posted most of this as a reply in another thread but now I actually want to see if anyone else has had similar results. At the start of the year I Built a new grow room and decided to go with 6 new HLG 320 QB XL LED's for my flower room. I also decided to go with organics/water only super soils (tried a lot of them including my own super hot mix). This past year of growing has been a nightmare for me in terms of loss of money and time plus the stress of my efforts not paying off.

The learning curve for LED's turned out to be more drastic than I was thinking. I cant, for the life of me, get an organic super soil dialed in with these intense LED's. The LED's make the plants eat the nutrients waaaayyyy before the plants are finished flowering. I've tried so many different Super Soils including mainstream ones like Build-A-Soil 3.0 and I cant seem to get through a full cycle with water only. Even with extra amended organic forms of cal-mag.

It'll get to where ill have to start adding synthetic Cal-Mag to actually see results then they'll start showing deficiencies again to the point to where ill have to start adding salt based nutes (megacrop) with extra cal-mag to fix my issues and by that time im hand watering because I don't have a specific plan as what to fill my res with (was using blumats). It just got to the point where I was forcing the plants to grow and trying my hardest just to keep them somewhat healthy. I like my plants to absolutely thrive. Also my yields are ridiculously low compared to what they should be. I feel like the only way I could make it work is to have a huge no till bed or at least use 10 gallon containers at a minimum and thats just too much space for the amount of plants im running at that point.

I could go on and on about the huge amount of money i've wasted this past year trying to unsuccessfully get an Organic Super Soil dialed in but bottom line is it just became too much of a pain in the ass to manage. With coco and salt based nutes, I can dial everything in pretty easily and run the amount of plants I want in the space I have.

I'll never hate on the quality or the taste of the herb with Organics. I think its a great way to grow for a lot of people but for me and my situation, it was just too much of a headache and loss of money to run organics with LED's. I've started my first coco run while im finishing out my organic soil plants and the glow my coco plants are putting off brings me sooo much relief.

So my question is, does anyone else run top brand intense LED's with a water only super soil and have great results?

hey man how is everything turning out?

 

[Growitpondifarm]

I use Epsom salts heavily in my veggie garden as it has proven to be super beneficial in staving of blossom end rot in tomatoes. I also give my cannabis bed good dose of epsom salts like roughly 2 tbsp/gal of water, watered in when I flip into bloom and again 2-3 weeks later. I don’t believe using Epsom salts has any negative effect on soil biology. People have been using Epsom salts in organic food production forever. If you believe you’re seeing a magnesium deficiency don’t be afraid to water with Epsom. Good luck

 

[Blazin Budz]

hey man how is everything turning out?

Im currently finishing a run in my living soil and transitioning over to coco while i get the soil figured out. My plants in the organic soil look great, But im feeding them Mega Crop at 2.5 Grams per gallon of water plus half strength cal-mag right now to get them through the whole grow.

I'm running some Autos in coco with FloraFlex irrigation and their pot pro system which im really digging right now. Using Mega Crop there as well. Might switch over to FloraFlex nutrients though as they seem to run much cleaner in the reservoir.

I plan on giving organic living soil another try but im going to slowly introduce it to my room not just jump straight into the deep end like I did this year.

Here is some OGKB in my organic living soil that im finishing up with Mega Crop nutrients.




And here are my Autos in the floraflex pot pro system. They are at day 30. Just starting to flower