What "filler" can I use to dilute powdered trace fertilizers?

[GlueSniffer]

I have been trying to grow with organic amendments, but after reading Solomon's Intelligent Gardener I've decided to try out his method for trace elements. He recommends the sulfates. Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, and also laundry Borax. His "complete organic fertilizer" recipe is for 100 sq ft outdoors. If you consider topsoil 6" deep, 100 sq feet is equal to 50 cubic feet. For 50 cubic feet, some of these traces call for 1 teaspoon of powdered material. I'm trying to measure out enough for 1 cubic foot. How do I measure out 1 / 50 teaspoon? My scale is only accurate to +/- 0.2 grams. My smallest measuring spoon is only 0.25 teaspoon and I need to measure 0.02 teaspoons.

I think I want to find a cheap, DRY, water soluble substance to dilute the powders in, but do not know what I can use. Any suggestions? I think I want to mix 1/4 teaspoon of fertilizer into 1 Tablespoons of filler. I've been thinking about water soluble fulvic acid, but don't really understand the humic / fulvic acids and looking for something cheap. I know that they make water soluble inert filler for pharmaceuticals, but wondering if there is a cheap sugar (sucralose) or salt that might work without causing havoc on my soil and soil life.

Can I premix these dry fertilizers together? Can i mix 1/2 tsp Borax, 1/2 teaspoon copper sulfate, 3/4 teaspoon zinc sulfate, 2 teaspoon manganese sulfate, and then add some filler to be stored and used as needed? If I can premix those fertilizers, the filler might only need to be 1 Tbs per gallon of water for a soil drench. At 1 Tbs per gallon of filler, I might be able to mix a few different salts and/or sugar to sufficiently dilute the traces without loading up on any one particle filler substance. I could possibly add in some potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate powder to dilute, but not really trying to add in other Macro or Micro nutes in significant amounts.

If nothing else, can I dissolve a small amount of each into an aqueous solution. Will it stay stable over time? What happens if I mix the borax with the zinc and the manganese and the copper and mix into water and leave it for a week or two or seven?

Thanks in advance.

 

[BBQtoast]

You could find a way but there's no accuracy in teaspoons and 1/50 of one is stupid amounts for a cu of soil.

Give up or likely fail, to what end, can just buy a cheap bottle of ferts, fulvic humics.

I didn't read your chem list well, don't fuck your health for a little bit of soil, maybe they all mix well in water together maybe they make a poison gas I really am not checking for you.

Mixing fillers depends on the grain size and how well you mix, it's not an easy solution, mix a load of sugar into flour and they easily separate or congregate.

You should pioneer this yourself, there are chem suppliers and fertilizer recipes which are scalable already online to avoid buying company blends.

The best cu of soil from the best blends with custom add one costs me a few dollars, why expend more energy than that.

 

[Kassiopeija]

I have been trying to grow with organic amendments

Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, and also laundry Borax.

this is all mineralic

I think I want to find a cheap, DRY, water soluble substance to dilute the powders in, but do not know what I can use. Any suggestions?

ground-up eg-scale - Ca supply

Can I premix these dry fertilizers together?

As long as you keep em dry, but would only recommend a small amount

How do I measure out 1 / 50 teaspoon?

you measure x10 or x20 etc the amount then cut it into equal 10 parts

 

[MICHI-CAN]

As suggested you need to measure. Or weigh to workable unit as defined by your location. Multiply the percentage of each mineral as stated on label by the weight. Now you can figure your actual percentage by weight and adjust as needed. Now top dress at proper weight by volume. Non water soluble. Life in soil makes it available. Unless chemically digested.

 

[GlueSniffer]

this is all mineralic


ground-up eg-scale - Ca supply


As long as you keep em dry, but would only recommend a small amount


you measure x10 or x20 etc the amount then cut it into equal 10 parts

I like the Calcium idea. Quickly searching I found 100% water soluble gypsum that is not too costly. Well $5 a pound is kind of costly if using at scale.

Can I work it by volume?
My mix would be something like this (by volume?)
1 Part Borax, 1 Part Copper Sulfate, 1.5 Part Zinc Sulfate, 2 Part Manganese Sulfate, 7 Part Calcium Sulfate
8% Borax, 8% Copper Sulfate, 12% Zinc Sulfate, 16% Manganese Sulfate, 56% Calcium Sulfate

1/2 teaspoon Borax, 1/2 teaspoon Copper Sulfate, 3/4 teaspoon Zinc Sulfate, 1 teaspoon Manganese Sulfate, 3.5 teaspoon Calcium Sulfate.
Total 6.25 teaspoons

Each 1/4 teaspoon of mix would have
0.02 teaspoons Borax, 11% Boron 12% Na
0.02 teaspoons Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate, 25% Cu 13% S
0.03 teaspoons Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate, 36% Zinc 18% S
0.04 teaspoons Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate, 32% Mn 19% S
0.14 teaspoon Calcium Sulfate Dihydrate, 23% Calcium 18% S

*1/4 teaspoon of mix per 7.5 gallon (1 Cu Foot) of soil
*This amount is based on 1 / 50 of the amount for general remineralization of 100 sq ft of outdoor garden soil without soil testing. All I did was divide his recipe by 50 to get those amounts. As far as other (non-trace) inputs, my scaled version of his recipe would be closer to 1/8 when making a new soil, instead of 1/50. Using 1/8 his recipe makes the amounts similar to what others are using in a supersoil recipe. I did not want to increase the trace elements too much for fear of toxicity. Lab soil testing will be done to see how this amount shows up in the soil.

If I incorrectly assume equal density (without the needed weighing).... The combined mix would be.....

0.9% Boron
1% Na
2% Cu
4.32% Zinc
5.12% Mn
13% Ca
16.32% S

At least the ratio should be OK and I can use more of the mix if needed. Or water it in as needed.
I might add extra Mn. Heard cannabis is a Mn hog compared to other crops. If uptake is not proportional, with testing I can spoon feed individual traces.

 

[Johnny Lawrence]

What a nightmare. Why even bother with this?

 

[youraveragehorticulturist]

The company BioAg mixes those trace minerals with humic acids (to help absorption) in their TM-7 fertilizer. So I guess you're on the right track in your tinkerings.

You could save yourself some work and pick some up for like 10 bucks.

 

[GlueSniffer]

The company BioAg mixes those trace minerals with humic acids (to help absorption) in their TM-7 fertilizer. So I guess you're on the right track in your tinkerings.

You could save yourself some work and pick some up for like 10 bucks.

Biomin Booster 153 is also a OMRI product that has them in a chelated form. Tad Hussey from KIS Organics discussed this product with Steve Solomon during the interview. I don't know what chelated really means (something to do with claws), but it makes me sound like I know things when I say fancy words. LOL

 

[xtsho]

Azomite or rock dust as a filler if you really want to bother with this.

 

[BBQtoast]

Biomin Booster 153 is also a OMRI product that has them in a chelated form. Tad Hussey from KIS Organics discussed this product with Steve Solomon during the interview. I don't know what chelated really means (something to do with claws), but it makes me sound like I know things when I say fancy words. LOL

Chelation is the joining of a metal ion with some type of bond and ion, in fertilizers it either makes it absorbable or stops it drop out of solution. Fulvic acid is a chelator, the plant also uses chelates to move ions round the plant transport system.

 

[Kassiopeija]

0.9% Boron
1% Na
2% Cu
4.32% Zinc
5.12% Mn
13% Ca
16.32% S

Could u please elaborate why you choose these ratios? Do you want to use this as a supplement to whatever you have and at what stage of the plant? I'm not seeing how you can increase Zinc & Manganese over Boron. Boron can be en parre with Manganese, and both less or close to Iron.
The stuff you are using can only be used in a professional plant nutrition recipe. Your ingredients are highly water-soluble and will "force-feed" a plant. The mix needs to be right or it'll greatly stiffle your grow.
The alternative would be to rely on an "organic" or "plant-reactive" type of supplemenation of plant food, for example there are many interesting stone-meals available ^^^ so if you grow with a medium then the plant can have a say in if it wants that stuff or not (simplified)

 

[GlueSniffer]

Could u please elaborate why you choose these ratios? Do you want to use this as a supplement to whatever you have and at what stage of the plant? I'm not seeing how you can increase Zinc & Manganese over Boron. Boron can be en parre with Manganese, and both less or close to Iron.
The stuff you are using can only be used in a professional plant nutrition recipe. Your ingredients are highly water-soluble and will "force-feed" a plant. The mix needs to be right or it'll greatly stiffle your grow.
The alternative would be to rely on an "organic" or "plant-reactive" type of supplemenation of plant food, for example there are many interesting stone-meals available ^^^ so if you grow with a medium then the plant can have a say in if it wants that stuff or not (simplified)

I didn't pick the ratios. The ratios are as the recipe calls for. The recipe from Solomon's Intelligent Gardener Complete Organic Fertilizer. He gives ratios by volume. I just assumed equal density of each product (which might be wrong, but should be close) and then figured out elemental percentages based on molecular weight. I also have Fe sulfate, but the recipe does not call for it. Maybe there is little need for Fe supplementation outside in a natural garden? Listening to people who do lab testing, amounts in soil (Mellich-3 test) do not always directly correspond to amounts in soil solution (saturated paste test) or to amount in in the plant (tissue analysis). I'm not sure I'm convinced that everything is solution will end up in the plant in proportional amounts so I'd need to be convinced before subscribing to the force feeding idea. To get inside the plant, water has to pass through a series of membranes right? Plants are smart. They might be able pick and choose what they want to some degree? Or signal microbes to do something? I don't know. Some of these might need higher concentrations because the plant has a harder time making use of them? I cannot speak intelligently about why those specific ratios were chosen. Those are from Solomon who was influenced by Albrecht.

Biomin Booster 153 has ratios of
(0.025%) - 1 part Boron
(0.10%) - 4 part Chelated Cu
(0.50%) - 20 part Chelated Fe
(2.5%) - 100 part Chelated Mn
(1.5%) - 60 part Chelated Zn
(0.8%) - 32 part Chelated Mg
Derived from sodium borate, all those sulfates, and hydrolyzed vegetable protein.
Not sure Elemental % in a cheated form, so when comparing to Boron - 100 parts chelated Mn is not same as 100 parts elemental Mn

BioAg TM7
Guaranteed Analysis
Sulfur(S)……….2%
Copper (Cu)……….0.31%
Boron (B)……….0.37%
Iron (FE)……….1.2%
Cobalt (Co)……….0.05%
Manganese (Mn)……….1.2%
Molybdenum (M0)……….0.1%
Zinc (Zn)………..0.7%
Non-Plant Food Ingredients
Humic 40% & Fulvic 10.5%
Derived from: Boron, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdenate, zinc sulfate and chelated with humic and fulvic acids derived from fresh water cretaceous humate deposits.
1 part B,
1 part Cu,
2 part Zn,
4 part Fe,
4 part Mn
This appears to be elemental %, not the complexed form.

Approx. Solomon Ratio
(using the specific hydrated versions I have - might be different if using anhydrous salts).
For example anhydrous Copper Sulfate would have a higher elemental Cu% than the Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate that I have.
40% vs 25%.
I'll have to go back to the book to see what he says about these elements and if he mentions anhydrous vs hydrated. Maybe only one type is organic approved? Im not sure.

0.9% Boron
2% Cu
4.32% Zinc
5.12% Mn

1 Part B
2 Part Cu
4 Part Zn
5 Part Mn





I want to premix these trace sulfates into a cu foot of DIY potting mix. I plan to increase Manganese even more. Everything I read or watch says Hemp or Cannabis is a Mn (and also K) pig compared to other crops. I also would like to be able to drench the soil later, or foliar spray. One episode of Future Cannabis Project talks about how to foliar these traces. The dude, Glen Rabenberg, was saying for a foliar spray, you should add stuff like fulvic acid, raw unbleached organic cane sugar, a little bit of Nitrogen (nitrate in veg, ammonia in flower), and a little bit of Phosphorous. Said N's electrical properties with help it stick to the leaves. P will help carry it into the plant. I think this would be fine for a soil drench too.

I am actually working with Bryant Mason from Soil Doctor. I just sent a mix over to Logan Labs. Getting some soil ready for transplanting into. He asked how many weeks from transplant to harvest and will work out an OMRI fertilizer recommendation to last the cycle. I'm more concerned with my Calcium, or lack of it. The more I learn, the more I realize I am probably lacking calcium in my soil.

Check out these episodes of FCP on Youtube. It is like a free education is soil health.
-Living Soil - Mineral Inputs, Microbes, Soil Health, Irrigation
-Restoring Soil Structure - Glen Rabenberg
-How Plants Sequester Nutrients & Minerals
There are countless amazing video on the this channel. Future Cannabis Project is amazing.

Also been watching Tad Hussey from KIS Organics and following his lab testing.
-Episode 6: Interview with Steve Solomon
-Episode 61: Agronomist Bill McKibben Explains Logan Labs Soil Tests and Potting Soils

These are just a few that I remember to be very informative. These 5 episodes are all great.
These along with the Intelligent Gardener and Coot's variation supersoil has steered me in my current direction, if wondering what my influences are.

 

[cannabineer]

I have been trying to grow with organic amendments, but after reading Solomon's Intelligent Gardener I've decided to try out his method for trace elements. He recommends the sulfates. Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, and also laundry Borax. His "complete organic fertilizer" recipe is for 100 sq ft outdoors. If you consider topsoil 6" deep, 100 sq feet is equal to 50 cubic feet. For 50 cubic feet, some of these traces call for 1 teaspoon of powdered material. I'm trying to measure out enough for 1 cubic foot. How do I measure out 1 / 50 teaspoon? My scale is only accurate to +/- 0.2 grams. My smallest measuring spoon is only 0.25 teaspoon and I need to measure 0.02 teaspoons.

I think I want to find a cheap, DRY, water soluble substance to dilute the powders in, but do not know what I can use. Any suggestions? I think I want to mix 1/4 teaspoon of fertilizer into 1 Tablespoons of filler. I've been thinking about water soluble fulvic acid, but don't really understand the humic / fulvic acids and looking for something cheap. I know that they make water soluble inert filler for pharmaceuticals, but wondering if there is a cheap sugar (sucralose) or salt that might work without causing havoc on my soil and soil life.

Can I premix these dry fertilizers together? Can i mix 1/2 tsp Borax, 1/2 teaspoon copper sulfate, 3/4 teaspoon zinc sulfate, 2 teaspoon manganese sulfate, and then add some filler to be stored and used as needed? If I can premix those fertilizers, the filler might only need to be 1 Tbs per gallon of water for a soil drench. At 1 Tbs per gallon of filler, I might be able to mix a few different salts and/or sugar to sufficiently dilute the traces without loading up on any one particle filler substance. I could possibly add in some potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate powder to dilute, but not really trying to add in other Macro or Micro nutes in significant amounts.

If nothing else, can I dissolve a small amount of each into an aqueous solution. Will it stay stable over time? What happens if I mix the borax with the zinc and the manganese and the copper and mix into water and leave it for a week or two or seven?

Thanks in advance.

You will form transition metal borates which might be insoluble. Look for precipitation of something solid.

If it stays clear, you’re onto something.

 

[GlueSniffer]

You will form transition metal borates which might be insoluble. Look for precipitation of something solid.

If it stays clear, you’re onto something.

So is the issue mixing the sulfates with the borate? Can I mix up all the sulfates together in water and mix the sodium borate in a separate jar?
And this is only an issue is dilluting in water and storing right? It would be fine if stored dry, right? And if put into solution for a water drench, would it be ok if mixing the borate with the sulfates if watered in immediately?

 

[GlueSniffer]

Could u please elaborate why you choose these ratios? Do you want to use this as a supplement to whatever you have and at what stage of the plant? I'm not seeing how you can increase Zinc & Manganese over Boron. Boron can be en parre with Manganese, and both less or close to Iron.
The stuff you are using can only be used in a professional plant nutrition recipe. Your ingredients are highly water-soluble and will "force-feed" a plant. The mix needs to be right or it'll greatly stiffle your grow.
The alternative would be to rely on an "organic" or "plant-reactive" type of supplemenation of plant food, for example there are many interesting stone-meals available ^^^ so if you grow with a medium then the plant can have a say in if it wants that stuff or not (simplified)

Curious as to where you were got the relative ratios you were mentioning. I'm new to this stuff and would love to learn about it.

There isn't a plant or animal based organic way to get Mn to sufficient levels that I know of. Mn Sulfate is the only option.
What kind of product is a "stone-meal"?

My goal is a living peat based potting mixed to be recycled after each harvest. Maybe no-till eventually.
About 55% Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, 20% worm castings, 25% Pumice
It will have Alfafa Meal, Neem Meal, Kelp Meal, Blood Meal, Bone Meal, Soft Rock Phosphate, Azomite, Oyster Shell, and Gypsum.

I think it is a combination of Subcool, Clackamus Coot, Solomon's COF and I added in some alfalfa, which doesn't seem very common in these recipes. Well those recipes are my influences.

The Kelp and Azomite will not get the trace elements to sufficient levels from what I've learned, so that's why I got all these sulfates.

I'm thinking per cubic foot of peat based mix....

1 cup Kelp
1 cup Alfalfa
3/4 cup Neem
1/8 cup Blood Meal
1/8 cup Bone Meal
1/2 cup Soft Rock Phosphate
1 cup Rock Dust (pick one, I have Azomite)
1 cup Oyster Shell Flour (or Agricultural Lime - Not Dolomitic Lime - Not Garden Lime that has 2:1 Ca :Mg)
1 cup Gypsum
(to be adjusted from here over time with soil testing)
This should have more K than other popular DIY recipes, I think. N and K are the elements depleted from the soil the most with this crop.



At 2hours 33 minutes in, Clacksmas Coot asks Rabenberg about sugars in that FCP espisode. To get things back on focus of the thread title...

Here is what I found at jewel.
Light tan,
Organic,
Non-GMO,
Cane Sugar
Want to stay away from Glyphosate, which can kill microbes. That is why you want organic, non-gmo.

 

[Kassiopeija]

Chelation is the joining of a metal ion with some type of bond and ion, in fertilizers it either makes it absorbable or stops it drop out of solution. Fulvic acid is a chelator, the plant also uses chelates to move ions round the plant transport system.

Yes it's sort of a ring which encircles that nutrition ion - and thereby protects it from engaging into a chemical reaction with other stuff - for example, phosphors & calcium like to form a strong - not plant absorbable - fallout. Then this is missign fromt he recipe and only clogging up stuff.

The various chelates can only be stable in a certain pH-range that is, too alkaline and "cheap" iron goes south... a sprinkle of undiluted pH-acid can also wreak havoc on any ion it hits.

Curious as to where you were got the relative ratios you were mentioning.

just by remembering the ratios from bottles and earthbags. I've tested my own recycled soil and results came back with 0 Boron in it, lots of excess salts and basically a huge turmoil of the ratios which, at least from N P K Ca S Mg can be gathered easily from the hydro calcs. But as for the micro-nutes? I am a searcher for additional information as well. Chances are, that there is some kind of "tolerance" in place as plants can have an active influence on the mobilisation and uptake of various nutrition ions. And deal with excess.

There isn't a plant or animal based organic way to get Mn to sufficient levels that I know of. Mn Sulfate is the only option.
What kind of product is a "stone-meal"?

I'm sorry I ment to write "dust" - stuff like dolomite lime - grind up certain stones to powder and depending on the source you'll get your metal ion - and this way, the plant needs to secret H+ in order to mobilise these atoms out of their mineralic complexes. So, it's really ok to use anything derived from stone also in an organic grow.
All that chemical or powder base nutes is usually highly water-coluble and you'll force-feed your plant with it, so if you go overbound it'll create a toxicity fast. These ferts will also create unwanted "salts" quickly that can be a problem in an organic grow over a longer period of time, esp. if you want to recycle your soil. So best to just keep these things out of your recipe.
Perhaps you are to find specific rock dusts which contain your micros?
This one would be for Boron:

Colemanite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Want to stay away from Glyphosate, which can kill microbes.

It's actually a herbicide where only plants carrying a specific genetic resistance can withstand. Which is IP of Monsantos...

 

[GlueSniffer]

It's actually a herbicide where only plants carrying a specific genetic resistance can withstand. Which is IP of Monsantos...

I think that is why he said to avoid GMO sugar. GMO sugar is likely to have come from plants that have been sprayed with glyphosate. The microbes in our soils have not been genetically altered to withstand the glyphoslate. So adding sugar from GMO plants will likey add glyphosate and hurt biological activity.

It is a Herbicide, but also a registered Anti-Microbal - that way if you use the product and it sterilizes your field you cannot sue.
Rabenberg said he found glyphosate on many non-organic sugars.

On the episode "Living Soil- Mineral Inputs...", Matt LaPlante discusses how low Boron will limit Calcium up take. Everybody keeps preaching how important Calcium is. Bryant Mason adds that he learned Mn is crucial to "regulate" the uptake of K.

And if you use Logan Labs, Matt LaPlante says his switched to Spectrum Analytic because he noticed an inaccuracy with the Boron measurement from Logan.

 

[Dr. Who]

you measure x10 or x20 etc the amount then cut it into equal 10 parts

Use a scientific scale. Make your divisions by weight!

 

[GlueSniffer]

Use a scientific scale. Make your divisions by weight!

I would like to do this, but my scale is less than scientific. I don't even own a scientific calculator anymore. I miss playing games on my TI-83 during HS math class.

I will work this out by weight, but I'm going to use elemental weight instead weight of the hydrated sulfate I'm using.

Borax, 11% Boron 12% Na
Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate, 25% Cu 13% S
Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate, 36% Zinc 18% S
Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate, 32% Mn 19% S

10 gram Borax = 1.1 gram Boron
10 gram Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate = 2.5 gram Cu
10 gram CuSO4 = 4 gm
10 gram Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate = 3.6 gram Zn
10 gram ZnSO4 = 4 gm
10 gram Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate = 3.2 gram Mn
10 gram MnSO4 = 3.6 gram Mn

Assume each fine powder is equal density (1 cup borax weighs the same as 1 cup MnSO4 which weighs the same as 1 cup Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate....) I think they should each weigh about 2.2 grams per cubic cm - which is bulk density of granulated NaCl.

The APPROXIMATE Ratio from COF (if using anhydrous salts)
10 part Borax = 1 Part Boron
10 part CuSO4 = 4 Part Cu
15 part ZnSO4 = 6 Part Zn
20 Part MnSO4 = 7.5 Part Mn

Coffee and youtube and rollitup... This is what you get. lmao
I'm just kind of taking notes here.... Getting ready for my test results.

M-3 trace results from popular bagged soils with suggested some targets from experts.
Boron 0.34 - 0.53 ppm
Copper <0.2-0.46 ppm
Zn 1-3 ppm
Mn 4-9 ppm (all low, target of 30 - 50 ppm )
Fe 39 - 66 ppm (target of 50 - 150, depending on who is analyzing)
3:1 Fe:Mn M-3 = 1:1 Fe:Mn Paste,
1:1 Fe : Mn M-3 = 1 : 1 Tissue
Can get from 10 ppm to 50 ppm in 1-2 applications of MnSO4
Al 17-50 ppm

Mason says he would be applying several teaspoons per yard of all the trace minerals. Along with 6-10 cups Gypsum and 10 cups of bone meal. KMag and KSO4 and 150lbs per acre equivalent of Nitrogen. (N estimated without test results)

TEC 7.7 - 17
Organic Matter 30-60%
pH 5.4-6.7

S 18 - 320 ppm
P2SO5 (lb / acre) 106 - 1751
Ca (lbs / acre) 2100 - 4600 (1050 - 2300 ppm) All low except Nectar of the Gods #4 and Sunshine #4
Mg (lbs / acre) 180 - 645
K (lbs / acre) 74 - 480
Na (lbs / acre) 41-94

Base Saturation
Ca 52-78% (75% Target)
Mag 8.5 - 22%
K 1.1 - 6.2%
Na 1.1 - 1.8
H 4.5 - 24%

 

[BBQtoast]

How have you not bought a bag of soil fertilizer and maybe some kelp and molasses liquid yet.

Your weights and measurements still have no accuracy. Suggest you make a simple compost, everything will be in that no need to add borax.