The far red thread

SpideyManDan

Well-Known Member
The understanding of Far Red photons is still not complete, and how plants capture this light has been an enigma since just a couple of years.

Then most white light diodes were/are created for human vision, so they do exclude some wavelengths because our eyes can't see them anyway, but plants can make readily use of it. These rays hold a potential to increase biomass and help in ripening.

However, as PJ stated, it can cause unwanted stretching, although Far Red itself is plenty in the suns natural spectrum, but indoor light does not fully mimic the sun's ratios, yet. So it stands to reason to have FR on a separate channel, then it could also be used for sleep initiation.
So what I'm taking from this is there needs to be a lot more research into it before we know for sure.

At least from my guy Bruce Bugbee, we know that different light wavelengths can impact stretching and leave size. Particularly blues and far reds. As far as I know this is the only certainty that we know that far red can impact. A lot of other stuff is still up.in the air imo.

Cant remember exactly where but Bruce mentioned that cannabis can get up and go and doesnt need time to "wake up". This is why I was asking about the flower initiator that I've seen mentioned a couple times here.
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
So what I'm taking from this is there needs to be a lot more research into it before we know for sure.
What we know (since 1957) is that these photons are only encaptured by Photosystem I and will trigger the Emmerson-effect. The exact mechanism is the result of the complex structure of the whole photosynthetic process/ complexes, and it cannot be observed for that whole "chain". The literature available even describes a 2nd "Emmerson"-effect.

Cant remember exactly where but Bruce mentioned that cannabis can get up and go and doesnt need time to "wake up". This is why I was asking about the flower initiator that I've seen mentioned a couple times here.
That's correct, plants possess the 24h natural clock and they do remember, when the mourning should set in. You may be able to observe that, too - judging from the petiole-angle.
These "flower-booster" racks are not ment to wake but to increase ppf - as in flower one cuts -6h lightfood away, and the 660nm+730nm combos are the most efficient lightwaves for photosynthetic activity currently.
 

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
What we know (since 1957) is that these photons are only encaptured by Photosystem I and will trigger the Emmerson-effect. The exact mechanism is the result of the complex structure of the whole photosynthetic process/ complexes, and it cannot be observed for that whole "chain". The literature available even describes a 2nd "Emmerson"-effect.


That's correct, plants possess the 24h natural clock and they do remember, when the mourning should set in. You may be able to observe that, too - judging from the petiole-angle.
These "flower-booster" racks are not ment to wake but to increase ppf - as in flower one cuts -6h lightfood away, and the 660nm+730nm combos are the most efficient lightwaves for photosynthetic activity currently.
Regarding the emerson effect as described: the activation of photosystem 1 and 2 at the same time; if we roughly describe photosystem 1s action spectra as being outside standard white leds spectrum (Violets and n-uva and far red, <450nm and >700nm) is there a s possibility to see a sorta emerson effect if only adding uva/violets? Has anyone studied this?

Also curious about the second emerson effect, any more info/links? :)
 

Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
Regarding the emerson effect as described: the activation of photosystem 1 and 2 at the same time; if we roughly describe photosystem 1s action spectra as being outside standard white leds spectrum (Violets and n-uva and far red, <450nm and >700nm) is there a s possibility to see a sorta emerson effect if only adding uva/violets? Has anyone studied this?
nice, just yesterday I thought I drop you a line for that info you've mentioned before. I looked, but couldn't find. It seems like the whole UVA situation is less scientifically available than UVB, and the fact there are so many different phytoreceptors there doesn't make it easier...

Well, I guess you know more than me about this, so I'd welcome it if we'd combine our resources/knowledge.
I do not know anything about UV exzitating PS I. When I decided to learn more "beyond PAR" I picked IR as first and decided to only venture into UV once I had this task done. But as always, things get bigger and out of hand. I'm currently learning up on the various forms of Phytochrome Far-Red - especially the photostable-form and its reaction. Can increased stretching translate to increased budmass once the stretch is over?

I'd have a few very interesting reads for you, but unfortunately it's in german. Mostly books about photobiology or plant physiology. There are some studies, but these can only be used to support a general statement. I'm away from using studies to form a generalized opinion as I've seen now too many conflicting results on the same matter. For example, there is a famous study around which informs us that Nitrogen in flower will decrease THC! BS!!!! This study was debunked by a follow-up study, correcting the mess. But went unnoticed.... :/

I do also feel that the EE is greatly misunderstood. Because of Wikipedia -.-

The increase in photosynthetic activity is only a side-effect - primarily mentioned @ popular sources because it's been the information to proof that there are 2 separate photosystems at large. This is caused by a RED-SHIFT (on paper) enabling the usage of FR photons into photosynthesis at the presence of PAR photons. The reason is:
(I need to make this short otherwise it would fill pages)

PSII + its antenna LHCII is much larger in chlorophyll-content than PSI + its antenna. PSII also contains more accessory pigments. The differences in absorbance are around cyan, red/orange and darkred.

The difference in cyan is left out as Carotenoids only deliver about 30-50% of its energy to the Reaction Center (RC), the rest is wasted, but even if one would want to use it it would be too narrow 5-10nm even for monochromatic diodes. Problem: Temperature can change the absorption spectra a little. Heat equates to more red-shift in these cases, as the phononic or vibronic energy increases, also the Pi-electron orbitals widen + interconnect with one another....

Outside in nature plants encounter a changing spectrum day by day, and the 2 photosystems can be understood as a means to optimize its light harvesting abilities.
If PSII is increasingly exzitated over PSI (for example, under white light diodes) then about 30% of the LHC II -antenna can wander towards PSI, and support it with energy. This process takes about 1-4 hours to complete (this is a huge problem as it can completely goof up the results of studies trying to analyse photosynthesis rates)

If we now saturate PSI with enough photonic energy then the LHCII can stay @ PSII - and then the max amount of netto photosynthesis can be reached. But it takes a huge amount of photons <680nm for this, as you can see from the generalised spectrum of the sun. The 3-4 special darkred super-chlorophyll-macromolecules which sit close to the RC p700 of PSI absorb around 700-740nm with peaks 710 718 etc so the 730nm diodes will not fully touch them....

The good news is that PSI cannot be over-excited as this will only lead to an electron-backflow via the cyclical-electron-transport-mechanism.
The FR photons can also subtract heat fromt he system (shield its RC from excessive heat @ high umol rates) but can also lead to a decrease in initial (top) leaf PS rates, but overall PS + biomass acquisition is increased. The addition or combination of green + FR light drives sub-canopy PS rates...

Actually I'm writing on a detailed guide about this phenomenom (as the EE is only an "effect") but in order to understand it, one needs to understand the whole photosynthetic process, esp. the Z-schematic and the LH-supercomplexes.

But then these FR photons also act on the Pfr system and some results (biomass, flowering time, ripening) could even be attributed to this stimulus, and not increased PS rates. But who can say what is responsible for what, when it comes to the end-product?

There's a tent, a pot, a seed, and a grower... and something good to smoke in 3 months... but everything in between may just be broscience :bigjoint:

I'll upload some sources tomorrow, it's already late here
 
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Kassiopeija

Well-Known Member
is there a s possibility to see a sorta emerson effect if only adding uva/violets? Has anyone studied this?
just to make myself clear, Emmerson, and his follow up researches do not describe the EE as just an increase in PS rates. They rather state this EE causes a "red-shift" of the McCree-curve - leading to an increased incorporation of FR photons into the photosynthetic process - which then, subsequently, causes an increase in PS rates.

Furthermore, the electron-excess at the binding site (Plastiquinon) of PSII to I, can be overcome by FR photons, subsequently leading to an increase in PS.

Increase in biomass, by either this^^ increase in PS rates, or PhyA-stimulation. Most likely both.

So there's alot associated with the term "EE" and I feel we need to make clear that we are talking about the same mechanisms or phenomenoae.
 

joejack51

Member
Update of the final light set up for my 2 flowering tent 2x2x4!
1x QB288 LM301H 3000k and 2 Strips of 395nm - 660nm and 730nm per tent
Couple of pics of the 2 flower tent set up - Drain to waste coco, automatic watering and automatic run-off management
I'll post some pics of the plant in the next post since we're limited to 10 pics per post
TYVM guys for the advice on the light set-up you rocks!
 

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joejack51

Member
Second post for the plants pics - 6 days after the 12/12 flip
Strain: Jean Guy from House of the Great Gardener
Again guys ty!
Follow the grow on: growdiaries - user Joejack
 

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SpideyManDan

Well-Known Member
just to make myself clear, Emmerson, and his follow up researches do not describe the EE as just an increase in PS rates. They rather state this EE causes a "red-shift" of the McCree-curve - leading to an increased incorporation of FR photons into the photosynthetic process - which then, subsequently, causes an increase in PS rates.

Furthermore, the electron-excess at the binding site (Plastiquinon) of PSII to I, can be overcome by FR photons, subsequently leading to an increase in PS.

Increase in biomass, by either this^^ increase in PS rates, or PhyA-stimulation. Most likely both.

So there's alot associated with the term "EE" and I feel we need to make clear that we are talking about the same mechanisms or phenomenoae.
just to make myself clear, Emmerson, and his follow up researches do not describe the EE as just an increase in PS rates. They rather state this EE causes a "red-shift" of the McCree-curve - leading to an increased incorporation of FR photons into the photosynthetic process - which then, subsequently, causes an increase in PS rates.

Furthermore, the electron-excess at the binding site (Plastiquinon) of PSII to I, can be overcome by FR photons, subsequently leading to an increase in PS.

Increase in biomass, by either this^^ increase in PS rates, or PhyA-stimulation. Most likely both.

So there's alot associated with the term "EE" and I feel we need to make clear that we are talking about the same mechanisms or phenomenoae.
Wow, im not going to even act like i understood all of that, however i do think i got the gist of it. As always thank you.
 

BaconSF

Active Member
Pics are from APRIL 24TH - Its a strain that is known to be flowering 10-13 weeks...
I should be cutting this one in a couple of days... 77-80 days of flowering
nice 11-11.5 weeks. I’m growing gelatos and it’s a 9 week strain, hoping to reduce it to 8 weeks.

I ordered the far red bulbs from HLG, fits in a par38 socket.
 
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