Switching from HPS to LED Week 4 Veg?

[bigbuzznutz]

What kind of medium is that? Soil? I'm in hydro these days, but when I was feeding synthetic chelated fertilizers to my dirt plants I always did a feed, water, water, feed regimen. If I watered with fertilizer juice every time I would have fried my plants. Soil growing is much different than hydro. The plants require different feeding regimens. I can assure you the damage you're seeing has nothing to do with over watering. It's light and heat stress. Possibly exacerbated by over fertilizing.

I’m in Coco.

 

[jonnynobody]

I’m in Coco.

I had trouble with coco. A lot of people are very successful with it though. Coco is an inert medium. You're growing in water to waste hydro my friend. Get those plants on elevators asap and pair them with saucers. In water to waste hydro you should be irrigating every 3rd-4th watering with plain water to flush out accumulated fertilizer from the medium. How can you do that without saucers or plant elevators? You can't even provide a thorough watering presently without slopping your floor to hell. Don't order them online. They'll rake you through the coals. Go to your local hydro shop and pay a fair price for good quality thick saucers and appropriate sized plant elevators. You'll thank yourself when it's done. I would seek the advice of some of the coco nuts here on RIU to get more advice on proper nutrition when growing in coco. I'm a perlite guy and can't offer much advice on that front

 

[jonnynobody]

Then you're going to have to do something to deal with all the run off that remains in your saucers. I use these kerosene liquid transfer pumps to suck out the excess water into a 5 gallon bucket. They operate on D batteries. I have 6 or 7 of them allover my basement and I buy D batteries in Rayovac brand by the 8 pack on the cheap.

 

[tkufoS]

no. you're the idiot using a mars light. of course your plants improved. they were shit seven years ago. there's nothing wrong with the HPS.

..hps all day
I

 

[PJ Diaz]

I had trouble with coco. A lot of people are very successful with it though. Coco is an inert medium. You're growing in water to waste hydro my friend. Get those plants on elevators asap and pair them with saucers. In water to waste hydro you should be irrigating every 3rd-4th watering with plain water to flush out accumulated fertilizer from the medium. How can you do that without saucers or plant elevators? You can't even provide a thorough watering presently without slopping your floor to hell. Don't order them online. They'll rake you through the coals. Go to your local hydro shop and pay a fair price for good quality thick saucers and appropriate sized plant elevators. You'll thank yourself when it's done. I would seek the advice of some of the coco nuts here on RIU to get more advice on proper nutrition when growing in coco. I'm a perlite guy and can't offer much advice on that front

Then you're going to have to do something to deal with all the run off that remains in your saucers. I use these kerosene liquid transfer pumps to suck out the excess water into a 5 gallon bucket. They operate on D batteries. I have 6 or 7 of them allover my basement and I buy D batteries in Rayovac brand by the 8 pack on the cheap.

I grow in coco, and I agree with most of what you said, except the part about feeding with plain water, which is something you shouldn't do in coco. If anything you should feed a dilute nute solution to flush accumulated salts.

You are completely right about needing to elevate the plants above the saucers, because I think what's happening is that all the unused nutes are accumulating at the bottom of the planter and causing lockout. It really needs to be able to drain completely. Here's my simple solution for DTW collection for 4 plants in coco/perlite in a 4x4 tent, I use a shop vac to suck reclaim the waste nutes:

 

[JoeBlow5823]

View attachment 4786979View attachment 4786979View attachment 4786987View attachment 4786988View attachment 4786989View attachment 4786990View attachment 4786991View attachment 4786992View attachment 4786994
Here’s the setup and some of the problems I’m having. This is my first grow and I’m quite overwhelmed. Lol. Plants started as clones and I haven’t quite killed them yet!!

Those open reflectors are the problem man. You need to have 10-12 foot ceilings to run them. I also see a fan pointed directly at one of them? That is a big no no. DE bulbs do not like to be cooled. I also see an 8'' ac infinity fan hooked up to a carbon filter. Your likely only moving about 200-300cfm with that setup. AC infinity fans are no good for pulling air through filters. Look into Vortex VTX fans, 10 year warranty on those boys.

If you want to run DE bulbs in a tent, you need these hoods. Sunsystem is the only one that makes air cooled hoods for DE bulbs. The bulb is completely isolated from the air cooled portion of the hood so it is able to get up to the temps it needs to get to.

Amazon.com: Sun System HGC904904 AC/DE Double-Ended Air-Cooled Reflector Accommodates DE 1000 Watt HPS Lamps 8",White: Industrial & Scientific

Buy Sun System HGC904904 AC/DE Double-Ended Air-Cooled Reflector Accommodates DE 1000 Watt HPS Lamps 8", White: Growing Light Fixtures - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

I have a 8'' VTX connected to a 10x39'' phat filter just to cool one light in a 5x5.

 

[bigbuzznutz]

I had trouble with coco. A lot of people are very successful with it though. Coco is an inert medium. You're growing in water to waste hydro my friend. Get those plants on elevators asap and pair them with saucers. In water to waste hydro you should be irrigating every 3rd-4th watering with plain water to flush out accumulated fertilizer from the medium. How can you do that without saucers or plant elevators? You can't even provide a thorough watering presently without slopping your floor to hell. Don't order them online. They'll rake you through the coals. Go to your local hydro shop and pay a fair price for good quality thick saucers and appropriate sized plant elevators. You'll thank yourself when it's done. I would seek the advice of some of the coco nuts here on RIU to get more advice on proper nutrition when growing in coco. I'm a perlite guy and can't offer much advice on that front

You can’t see them but they are on some of the cheaper saucers. Can’t do much for elevation because of the plants current height. That was the drive to switch to LED along with the heat concerns.

 

[bigbuzznutz]

Changes coming. Pics to follow. Just flushed with an enzyme solution recommended by my local store and cal/mag at 3.75ml/gal. Planning on letting them dry out until tomorrow and I’ll either repeat of start back up at 250ppms and see what the response is.

 

[jonnynobody]

I grow in coco, and I agree with most of what you said, except the part about feeding with plain water, which is something you shouldn't do in coco. If anything you should feed a dilute nute solution to flush accumulated salts.

I said irrigate with plain water. Not feed with plain water. That means you run a gallon of plain water through every 3rd or 4th watering. Immediately after you then run your usual fertilizer through the container. Starving a plant in an inert hydroponic medium is not advisable.

Edit: By the way I love the ingenuity with the slat racks. Use what you have to get 'er done

 

[jonnynobody]

You can’t see them but they are on some of the cheaper saucers. Can’t do much for elevation because of the plants current height. That was the drive to switch to LED along with the heat concerns.

Plant elevators raise the plants about 3". You have the space. Just get them.

 

[bigbuzznutz]

Plant elevators raise the plants about 3". You have the space. Just get them.

I did. I’ll post pics of the new room when I’m done. Thanks for the advice. Appreciate it homie.

 

[jonnynobody]

Those open reflectors are the problem man. You need to have 10-12 foot ceilings to run them. I also see a fan pointed directly at one of them? That is a big no no. DE bulbs do not like to be cooled. I also see an 8'' ac infinity fan hooked up to a carbon filter. Your likely only moving about 200-300cfm with that setup. AC infinity fans are no good for pulling air through filters. Look into Vortex VTX fans, 10 year warranty on those boys.

If you want to run DE bulbs in a tent, you need these hoods. Sunsystem is the only one that makes air cooled hoods for DE bulbs. The bulb is completely isolated from the air cooled portion of the hood so it is able to get up to the temps it needs to get to.

Amazon.com: Sun System HGC904904 AC/DE Double-Ended Air-Cooled Reflector Accommodates DE 1000 Watt HPS Lamps 8",White: Industrial & Scientific

Buy Sun System HGC904904 AC/DE Double-Ended Air-Cooled Reflector Accommodates DE 1000 Watt HPS Lamps 8", White: Growing Light Fixtures - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

I have a 8'' VTX connected to a 10x39'' phat filter just to cool one light in a 5x5.

Compliments on your hardware and setup. Clean. Efficient. I'm a huge fan of the Vortex line of fans. Every time I see one of those shitty AC infinity fans in someone's grow room I cringe a little. They only have a 2 year warranty because it's a trash design, and the manufacturer knows it.

I do have one question for you. Why do you say DE bulbs do not like to be cooled? I thought about trying one out just to experiment. I couldn't imagine not putting the lamp in an air cooled reflector. Your AC would be running non stop and the entire operation would be horribly inefficient as a result. I've been looking at hydrofarm's commercial 1000w DE phantom ballast for awhile now. Pair that puppy with a nice air cooled reflector and you'd be pushing some serious lumens while maintaining a cool and efficiently operating grow room.

Once again, compliments on your sweet setup there. Very nicely done.

 

[PJ Diaz]

I said irrigate with plain water. Not feed with plain water. That means you run a gallon of plain water through every 3rd or 4th watering. Immediately after you then run your usual fertilizer through the container. Starving a plant in an inert hydroponic medium is not advisable.

Edit: By the way I love the ingenuity with the slat racks. Use what you have to get 'er done

Everything I've read about coco says to never use plain water, because it can mess up your cation exchange capacity, so you should always use at least a 20% dilute nute solution or a calmag only solution. Personally if I have to "flush" to get rid of excess salts I like to do it with a low nute solution plus liquid kelp, fulvics, and microbes. I try to stay away from plain water feedings completely. I used to do that feed-feed-water thing, but the plants didn't seem to like the continual feed inconsistencies. After research plus trial and error, I've found that a steady lower concentration of nutes keeps my plants happier. I do often measure runoff ppms too to see how the plants are feeding, and adjust my feed ppms accordingly.

Thanks for the props on the racks, it was really just to save me headroom. I used to use a table, but it ended up eating up like 16inches of what could be grow height. This system keeps the plants just 4 inches off the floor. Only trouble is I have to vac it out every few days at least. I don't have any extended trips for a while, but I'll have to work something out next time I go on vacation.

 

[jonnynobody]

Everything I've read about coco says to never use plain water, because it can mess up your cation exchange capacity, so you should always use at least a 20% dilute nute solution or a calmag only solution. Personally if I have to "flush" to get rid of excess salts I like to do it with a low nute solution plus liquid kelp, fulvics, and microbes. I try to stay away from plain water feedings completely. I used to do that feed-feed-water thing, but the plants didn't seem to like the continual feed inconsistencies. After research plus trial and error, I've found that a steady lower concentration of nutes keeps my plants happier. I do often measure runoff ppms too to see how the plants are feeding, and adjust my feed ppms accordingly.

Thanks for the props on the racks, it was really just to save me headroom. I used to use a table, but it ended up eating up like 16inches of what could be grow height. This system keeps the plants just 4 inches off the floor. Only trouble is I have to vac it out every few days at least. I don't have any extended trips for a while, but I'll have to work something out next time I go on vacation.

I've only ran coco once due to poor results. I run water to waste hempy buckets, and I poorly researched coco as a medium prior to using it. As I began having issues I started reading about coco's interaction with magnesium and calcium's cation exchange and I swore I'd never touch the stuff again. Plenty of people swear by it though, and hempy himself has switched to coco in recent years. My opinion is once you've got a system that works for you there's no reason to alter it. Keep rocking it if you're getting solid results. It feels good to have things dialed in like that

If you get tired of monkeying with the bulky shop vac every time you have to evacuate your drip trays grab one of these fuckers next time you're at home depot or lowes:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/DuraHeat-Kerosene-Heater-Siphon-Pump/3032705?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-sol-_-google-_-lia-_-237-_-portableheat-_-3032705-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAiAudD_BRBXEiwAudakX0075KXcngDyxNa-o49z4Kg4h0a2nkyAe8ONrkgsDOK9Xh-gFVRG1xoCF7kQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
I've got 6 or 7 of them allover my basement. D batteries. Works fantastic and they're very easy to get into tight spaces as your plants bush out. The only time I've ever broken one is by stepping on it.

 

[JoeBlow5823]

Compliments on your hardware and setup. Clean. Efficient. I'm a huge fan of the Vortex line of fans. Every time I see one of those shitty AC infinity fans in someone's grow room I cringe a little. They only have a 2 year warranty because it's a trash design, and the manufacturer knows it.

I do have one question for you. Why do you say DE bulbs do not like to be cooled? I thought about trying one out just to experiment. I couldn't imagine not putting the lamp in an air cooled reflector. Your AC would be running non stop and the entire operation would be horribly inefficient as a result. I've been looking at hydrofarm's commercial 1000w DE phantom ballast for awhile now. Pair that puppy with a nice air cooled reflector and you'd be pushing some serious lumens while maintaining a cool and efficiently operating grow room.

Once again, compliments on your sweet setup there. Very nicely done.

I appreciate that man. I put a lot of thought into the "ultimate HPS 5x5". DE bulbs have a quarts jacket that transfers a lot of heat and the bulb itself doesnt have a large negative pressure space in it to keep the heat in. If you air cool a DE bulb, it cant get to operating temp which is where the bulb is most efficient and putting of the correct spectrum.

This video is a good explanation of air cooled DE hoods.

My tent vents to the basement. I only grow in the winter so its sort of like free heat for the basement. Current grow is running 1100w and looking beautiful.



Even with an 84'' tent and the light on the ceiling of it, the plants have to be trained to stay low. Really want them to be about 36'' from the light.

Also 260$ for one from amazon is way to much in my opinion.... look around for used ones on craigslist. Got mine for 100 with a used bulb (good backup)

 

[PJ Diaz]

I've only ran coco once due to poor results. I run water to waste hempy buckets, and I poorly researched coco as a medium prior to using it. As I began having issues I started reading about coco's interaction with magnesium and calcium's cation exchange and I swore I'd never touch the stuff again. Plenty of people swear by it though, and hempy himself has switched to coco in recent years. My opinion is once you've got a system that works for you there's no reason to alter it. Keep rocking it if you're getting solid results. It feels good to have things dialed in like that

If you get tired of monkeying with the bulky shop vac every time you have to evacuate your drip trays grab one of these fuckers next time you're at home depot or lowes:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/DuraHeat-Kerosene-Heater-Siphon-Pump/3032705?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-sol-_-google-_-lia-_-237-_-portableheat-_-3032705-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAiAudD_BRBXEiwAudakX0075KXcngDyxNa-o49z4Kg4h0a2nkyAe8ONrkgsDOK9Xh-gFVRG1xoCF7kQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
I've got 6 or 7 of them allover my basement. D batteries. Works fantastic and they're very easy to get into tight spaces as your plants bush out. The only time I've ever broken one is by stepping on it.

I had one of those pumps before and it broke in like 2 weeks, just stopped working, even with new batteries. Now what I use isn't really a shop vac, but very similar, it's a bucket top pump which you just slap on a 5-gal bucket, like this: https://www.acehardware.com/departments/tools/wet-dry-vacuums/wetdry-vacuum-parts-and-accessories/2607653

I hear you about having things dialed in. I tried coco hempy style in the past and didn't like it really, due to no way to fully refresh the nutes with the drain hole being a couple inches above the bottom of the bucket. Actually outdoors I like hempy-style coco ok, because I can tip the buckets over for extra drainage, and it's basically outdoor hydro without the need for auto-irrigation.

 

[PJ Diaz]

I appreciate that man. I put a lot of thought into the "ultimate HPS 5x5". DE bulbs have a quarts jacket that transfers a lot of heat and the bulb itself doesnt have a large negative pressure space in it to keep the heat in. If you air cool a DE bulb, it cant get to operating temp which is where the bulb is most efficient and putting of the correct spectrum.

This video is a good explanation of air cooled DE hoods.

My tent vents to the basement. I only grow in the winter so its sort of like free heat for the basement. Current grow is running 1100w and looking beautiful.

View attachment 4787872View attachment 4787871

Even with an 84'' tent and the light on the ceiling of it, the plants have to be trained to stay low. Really want them to be about 36'' from the light.

Don't you feel like you're missing out on a lot of yield by having to keep them so short?

 

[jonnynobody]

DE bulbs have a quarts jacket that transfers a lot of heat and the bulb itself doesnt have a large negative pressure space in it to keep the heat in. If you air cool a DE bulb, it cant get to operating temp which is where the bulb is most efficient and putting of the correct spectrum.

That's very interesting. The DE lamps are super tiny and that's a sound explanation that generated a question on my end. Granted I have not watched the video yet, but I will tomorrow. What is the ideal operating temperature of a DE 1000w lamp per industry standards? Assuming you're cooling the lamp with an ambient air temp of 75-80 the lamp should still be scorching hot with 1000w of electricity flowing through it. Just to put a little rubber to the road here I'll use an example in my flower room with my existing 1000w SE lamps. I have 2 inline fans that cool all 4 HID hoods. One 497CFM Vortex just before the 2 1000's and just after the 2 600's, so basically right in the middle. Then I have a can-fan max fan operating at 450CFM (I think) at the end of the track after the 2 1000's that pushes the heat outside through a louver. The intake for that HVAC run is my first 600w hood. There's no glass in it, so the intake for the light ventilation track is literally coming from within the flower room. The ambient temp is typically 78-81. With my hand 6" from the glass it is very hot. Holding your hand there for a minute would become uncomfortable. My suspicion is that lamp is extremely hot. I haven't taken a heat gun to it or anything, but I think I will this evening just to find out what the operating temp is under my current conditions. I'll report back what that temp is. Then we need to talk more about the recommended operating temp of a DE1000w lamp to see if under my present conditions I could air cool the lamp while still maintaining the ideal operating temperature of the lamp. When my wife sees me walk downstairs to the grow room with a heat gun she's going to give me a look sir

Also 260$ for one from amazon is way to much in my opinion.... look around for used ones on craigslist. Got mine for 100 with a used bulb (good backup)

Agreed. I find amazon to be a poor choice for sourcing most grow supplies. I buy all my inline fans from HVAC suppliers. Growgreenmi.com is the cheapest source for anything grow related. Been using them a lot lately. Actually waiting on a 25# bag of jack's 5-12-26. I'm done with GH products. Way too costly and problematic.

 

[JoeBlow5823]

What is the ideal operating temperature of a DE 1000w lamp per industry standards? Assuming you're cooling the lamp with an ambient air temp of 75-80 the lamp should still be scorching hot with 1000w of electricity flowing through it.

Im not sure on the number but watch that video and youll see. Messing with air cooling the bulb directly has a DRASTIC impact on the light it puts out. They do a very scientific side by side of 3 different hoods and different ways of cooling.

The glass on the sunsystem hood is cookin hot. like 200-250 degrees. But the outer shell is the same temp as the tent. Maybe a few degrees warmer directly over the bulb. When the bulb is to cool something like the resistance increases and your ballast actually goes into overdrive trying to get it hot enough so more electric wasted in the ballast and just transferred into more heat coming off the bulb. A 1000w de bulb that has way to much air cooling could legit run as low as 50% efficiency.

When my wife sees me walk downstairs to the grow room with a heat gun she's going to give me a look sir

My ir temp gun is one of my most used grow room tools. I keep a close eye on canopy temps. Your grow area may be 75 degrees but your canopy could be 80-90+. I almost want to invest in one of the fancy ones with a led display so i can easily see hot spots. Like... my ph meters were over 200$ and i spent 12$ on my ir temp gun. I rarely check ph of anything now.

Agreed. I find amazon to be a poor choice for sourcing most grow supplies. I buy all my inline fans from HVAC suppliers. Growgreenmi.com is the cheapest source for anything grow related. Been using them a lot lately. Actually waiting on a 25# bag of jack's 5-12-26. I'm done with GH products. Way too costly and problematic.

If you keep an eye out, you find good deals here and there. But mostly over priced i agree. GH was kind of expensive but a pretty simple low dose addition of the trio plus silica and calmag is giving me plants that literally couldnt be healthier. That is in combination of 2 different flavors of organic soil and 1/3 perlite.

 

[JoeBlow5823]

Don't you feel like you're missing out on a lot of yield by having to keep them so short?

Oh no, they will have a very impressive canopy. You see much light getting through that canopy? And were not even close to done with stretch.