Heavy metals in rock dust

[Highlife42]

I've started looking up everything that I never thought to in the past on the database-coco coir, sphagnum, ewc, etc. It's really interesting, and it's easy to see how these metals build up to harmful levels in a grow. I'm determined to come up with a mix that has as close to zero heavy metals as possible, but I keep running into problems. The latest "eye opener" is earthworm castings. The best deal for EWC on Amazon is the 30 lb bags of "Red Wiggler" castings-I've bought at least 6 bags of this stuff in the past. Well, these castings have 5 ppm Arsenic, and a whopping 16 ppm LEAD. Most of the castings I looked up were similar, and my thinking is that since we feed the worms a lot of these same rock dusts, they are concentrating the heavy metals in their castings. Even things like perlite and pumice can have heavy metal contamination-the regulations here are meant to protect corporate profits not the consumer, so don't assume that simply because something is for sale, it's not going to hurt you. I've been able to find untainted product replacements for almost all of these inputs however, with the exception of the rock dusts (which are pretty bad), insect frass (another surprise), and a few others. Crustacean shell is usually high in arsenic and cadmium, but many shrimp meals are "not detectable." I know this is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people who have invested a lot of time, money, and energy into their living soils, but the entire goal is better health for you and the environment, right?

How much are you paying for your EWC?

 

[Highlife42]

I've started looking up everything that I never thought to in the past on the database-coco coir, sphagnum, ewc, etc. It's really interesting, and it's easy to see how these metals build up to harmful levels in a grow. I'm determined to come up with a mix that has as close to zero heavy metals as possible, but I keep running into problems. The latest "eye opener" is earthworm castings. The best deal for EWC on Amazon is the 30 lb bags of "Red Wiggler" castings-I've bought at least 6 bags of this stuff in the past. Well, these castings have 5 ppm Arsenic, and a whopping 16 ppm LEAD. Most of the castings I looked up were similar, and my thinking is that since we feed the worms a lot of these same rock dusts, they are concentrating the heavy metals in their castings. Even things like perlite and pumice can have heavy metal contamination-the regulations here are meant to protect corporate profits not the consumer, so don't assume that simply because something is for sale, it's not going to hurt you. I've been able to find untainted product replacements for almost all of these inputs however, with the exception of the rock dusts (which are pretty bad), insect frass (another surprise), and a few others. Crustacean shell is usually high in arsenic and cadmium, but many shrimp meals are "not detectable." I know this is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people who have invested a lot of time, money, and energy into their living soils, but the entire goal is better health for you and the environment, right?

And are they OMRI listed by chance the product you buy?

 

[Highlife42]

I've started looking up everything that I never thought to in the past on the database-coco coir, sphagnum, ewc, etc. It's really interesting, and it's easy to see how these metals build up to harmful levels in a grow. I'm determined to come up with a mix that has as close to zero heavy metals as possible, but I keep running into problems. The latest "eye opener" is earthworm castings. The best deal for EWC on Amazon is the 30 lb bags of "Red Wiggler" castings-I've bought at least 6 bags of this stuff in the past. Well, these castings have 5 ppm Arsenic, and a whopping 16 ppm LEAD. Most of the castings I looked up were similar, and my thinking is that since we feed the worms a lot of these same rock dusts, they are concentrating the heavy metals in their castings. Even things like perlite and pumice can have heavy metal contamination-the regulations here are meant to protect corporate profits not the consumer, so don't assume that simply because something is for sale, it's not going to hurt you. I've been able to find untainted product replacements for almost all of these inputs however, with the exception of the rock dusts (which are pretty bad), insect frass (another surprise), and a few others. Crustacean shell is usually high in arsenic and cadmium, but many shrimp meals are "not detectable." I know this is a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people who have invested a lot of time, money, and energy into their living soils, but the entire goal is better health for you and the environment, right?

This is a good read. I like it. This particularly: 'so don't assume that simply because something is for sale, it's not going to hurt you'

 

[Rurumo]

And are they OMRI listed by chance the product you buy?

Hi there! Yes those 30 lb bags of "Red Wiggler" brand EWC are certified organic, and I think they're around $30 each on Amazon, maybe a little more. I did find a couple of brands of EWC that had no detectable amount of heavy metals-I'm thinking they were produced without rock dusts. This stuff is all expensive if you have to have it shipped to you. I'm lucky in that I have a great source of grassfed cow manure that was composted with field grass, I usually buy a "scoop" of it each year for $25-a scoop being however much the tractor can hold in its 'scoop'. I should start doing my own ewc, but now I need to figure out how to take care of them without rock dusts. Oyster shell appears to be a very clean product, which is good because I always used a lot of it in my living soil.

 

[MICHI-CAN]

Again I don't belong here. Another 80's source I had good results from. And very low heavy metals was "Calci Sand or Living Sand" Saltwater aquarium substrates. Time before hydro shops and the net thing. Yet another Tid Bit for consideration from another dimension and time.

And I believe smelting or chemical separation are the only true removal options. And they destroy your material.

 

[Rurumo]

I stick with basalt for rock dust. Everything is going to have some toxic metals, but the only one I personally have hesitations about is Azomite. I can't say I really know for sure, but I've been told by people it has higher doses of heavy metals than others, and that it was originally only meant for decorative bushes and trees... not for anything edible (or smokable)... I'm not at all an expert on it though.

I only have numbers for the gaia green basalt, which is 1.7 ppm cadmium, and 3 ppm lead, compared to the Azomite brand azomite, which is .04 ppm cadmium, 1.1 ppm arsenic, and 8 ppm lead. Honestly it's pretty close, but the real problem with rock dust is the quantity used. I wish I had more basalt samples to compare, because the glacial rock dust samples were all MUCH higher in everything. We're using 4+ cups of rock dust per cubic foot, depending on the recipe. If we're going by the typical "no till/living soil/cootz mix" recipe, this will also have plenty of kelp, crab meal, and possibly 1/3 the container of earthworm castings, unless another source of compost is used. And if you use pumice for aeration rather than perlite, that's another possible source of contamination. This adds up to potentially dangerous levels of heavy metals. I know a person who's first batch of weed he had tested failed due to sky high arsenic levels, and that was all down to kelp meal-that's what started me on this journey of curiosity. An entirely separate issue is the high levels of aluminum in these rock dusts, BOTH basalt and azomite. "Conventional knowledge" says that aluminum doesn't become a problem unless the soil is quite acidic, under 5 ph for example. But that's only in terms of aluminum toxicity to the plant. Without testing, we have no idea what kind of aluminum levels we are ingesting through plants grown in these rock dusts. Cannabis is a dynamic accumulator and likes to suck up metals from the soil like it's going out of style.

 

[Highlife42]

Again I don't belong here. Another 80's source I had good results from. And very low heavy metals was "Calci Sand or Living Sand" Saltwater aquarium substrates. Time before hydro shops and the net thing. Yet another Tid Bit for consideration from another dimension and time.

And I believe smelting or chemical separation are the only true removal options. And they destroy your material.

This is cool. I definitely want to know more about what you said sir. Saltwater aquarium substrates? More specifically. If you have the time to share? Are you talking in a sense regarding sand silt clay with saltwater aquarium substrates ie metals to be implemented into regular soil? Does that make sense? Lol

 

[MICHI-CAN]

This is cool. I definitely want to know more about what you said sir. Saltwater aquarium substrates? More specifically. If you have the time to share? Are you talking in a sense regarding sand silt clay with saltwater aquarium substrates ie metals to be implemented into regular soil? Does that make sense? Lol

I used as an amendment in soils. And as a biological live filter in my reservoirs. I have no data. Just put my fish breeding and dreams of a self sustaining hydro ag system to work. I grew SOG on top of functioning fresh water fish tanks in the beginning. LOL.

 

[Highlife42]

I used as an amendment in soils. And as a biological live filter in my reservoirs. I have no data. Just put my fish breeding and dreams of a self sustaining hydro ag system to work. I grew SOG on top of functioning fresh water fish tanks in the beginning. LOL.

Totally. Ok. I see where thats going. Aquaponics to hydro in a closed loop system? Was yours closed loop. I'm super interested in aquaponics to a soil substrate If that makes sense. In the idea to repair our land with good bacteria & minerals that are depleting like phosphorus & for proving mycelium with clean nutrients and using that soil to plant in year after year. Repair and regernate back into the land. Cool man. I like that. Lol. What kind of filters/sediment/biofilters did you use? Did you Filter the fish water how? How easily manageable and how clean was your end product in your opinion, since you did it from you experience?

 

[Highlife42]

I only have numbers for the gaia green basalt, which is 1.7 ppm cadmium, and 3 ppm lead, compared to the Azomite brand azomite, which is .04 ppm cadmium, 1.1 ppm arsenic, and 8 ppm lead. Honestly it's pretty close, but the real problem with rock dust is the quantity used. I wish I had more basalt samples to compare, because the glacial rock dust samples were all MUCH higher in everything. We're using 4+ cups of rock dust per cubic foot, depending on the recipe. If we're going by the typical "no till/living soil/cootz mix" recipe, this will also have plenty of kelp, crab meal, and possibly 1/3 the container of earthworm castings, unless another source of compost is used. And if you use pumice for aeration rather than perlite, that's another possible source of contamination. This adds up to potentially dangerous levels of heavy metals. I know a person who's first batch of weed he had tested failed due to sky high arsenic levels, and that was all down to kelp meal-that's what started me on this journey of curiosity. An entirely separate issue is the high levels of aluminum in these rock dusts, BOTH basalt and azomite. "Conventional knowledge" says that aluminum doesn't become a problem unless the soil is quite acidic, under 5 ph for example. But that's only in terms of aluminum toxicity to the plant. Without testing, we have no idea what kind of aluminum levels we are ingesting through plants grown in these rock dusts. Cannabis is a dynamic accumulator and likes to suck up metals from the soil like it's going out of style.

I enjoy this read. Also. What you said in your OP post. I want to ask and see what are your thoughts on using fermented fruits and herbs/trees in their form of acidic metals as natural man made fertilizers?

 

[MustangStudFarm]

here we go again. More gems from @Highlife42

my dude. I would love for you to explain how to implement minerals like this. In fact that the whole purpose of this thread. How to negate the heavy metals which seem to be in almost every source to some degree.



Thanks as always super helpful and great info.

so do you use anyrocks dust in your mix? Just greensand and the sulphates? Just trying to wrap my head around what a recipe would look like without my 2 cups mineral dust off the bat.

I was using basalt and greensand... My soil agronomist is Bryant Mason and he is in the video that I posted above. Just start playing it around the 58min mark and you can hear them explain their point of view on it. It's still a new concept to me and I just bought a HUGE bag of greensand not long ago. I'm not here trying to knock anyone, because I'm in the same boat. It's more like we are figuring this out together.

 

[Rurumo]

I was using basalt and greensand... My soil agronomist is Bryant Mason and he is in the video that I posted above. Just start playing it around the 58min mark and you can hear them explain their point of view on it. It's still a new concept to me and I just bought a HUGE bag of greensand not long ago. I'm not here trying to knock anyone, because I'm in the same boat. It's more like we are figuring this out together.

Yes, totally agree. I love this no till/living soil stuff, I've used some variation of it in all of my gardens for years. I'm not really concerned with what I've done, only what I do going forward. More than anything, I'd like to find a way to make it work for people who want to start fresh in organics with a media and nutrients that are free of heavy metals. My friend's high arsenic test, the news about high lead concentrations in organic baby food, and stories about arsenic in apple juice, have all pushed me in this direction.

 

[bodhipop]

I'm really diggin' this thread. I've always been light in added minerals.
My buddy just got into the cootz mix. He's a new grower. I was very impressed with his product (as far as smells and looks) and then I smoked it. I thought "How could this organic product be so harsh on my lungs if he cured well?" My intuition said too much rock dusts and you definitely confirmed it. I will let him know.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I enjoy this read. Also. What you said in your OP post. I want to ask and see what are your thoughts on using fermented fruits and herbs/trees in their form of acidic metals as natural man made fertilizers?

I've been dabbling in ferments for the last couple of years. Like I said, I'm interested in trying blueberry FPJ. Then again, blueberries are acid loving and a lot of sulfur that is used has high levels of aluminum(aluminum sulfate). I'm probably going to plant my own blueberry plants to avoid commercial products.

 

[MustangStudFarm]

I'm really diggin' this thread. I've always been light in added minerals.
My buddy just got into the cootz mix. He's a new grower. I was very impressed with his product (as far as smells and looks) and then I smoked it. I thought "How could this organic product be so harsh on my lungs if he cured well?" My intuition said too much rock dusts and you definitely confirmed it. I will let him know.

A lot of people spray their plants, is he one? I can't smoke dispensary weed because it will set off a asthma attack. Then, I found out that the owner of the dispensary sprays his plants with BT on a weekly basis.

 

[Highlife42]

I've been dabbling in ferments for the last couple of years. Like I said, I'm interested in trying blueberry FPJ. Then again, blueberries are acid loving and a lot of sulfur that is used has high levels of aluminum(aluminum sulfate). I'm probably going to plant my own blueberry plants to avoid commercial products.

Well i tell you what my man. You are in luck to use anything from your kitchen.. Well not anything but more than you think and never have to buy synthetic nutes! ever

 

[Highlife42]

Hi there! Yes those 30 lb bags of "Red Wiggler" brand EWC are certified organic, and I think they're around $30 each on Amazon, maybe a little more. I did find a couple of brands of EWC that had no detectable amount of heavy metals-I'm thinking they were produced without rock dusts. This stuff is all expensive if you have to have it shipped to you. I'm lucky in that I have a great source of grassfed cow manure that was composted with field grass, I usually buy a "scoop" of it each year for $25-a scoop being however much the tractor can hold in its 'scoop'. I should start doing my own ewc, but now I need to figure out how to take care of them without rock dusts. Oyster shell appears to be a very clean product, which is good because I always used a lot of it in my living soil.

MMM ok. I will get back to you in a few days regrading EWC and if you want to change it up with true worm farming vs commercial producs from amazon. And yes. OMRI Listed too btw. I will tell you now tho, but are also more expensive. at $4.10 a lb... 4.5lb bag for $18.50. shipped.

 

[Highlife42]

I've been dabbling in ferments for the last couple of years. Like I said, I'm interested in trying blueberry FPJ. Then again, blueberries are acid loving and a lot of sulfur that is used has high levels of aluminum(aluminum sulfate). I'm probably going to plant my own blueberry plants to avoid commercial products.

I dont recommend trying or implementing bluebeery unless you have already implemented a less heavy product bond wise..i.e. Banana FFJ, Carrott FFJ or Orange FFJ. metal wise like you said sulfur with blueberries..etc..

 

[bodhipop]

A lot of people spray their plants, is he one? I can't smoke dispensary weed because it will set off a asthma attack. Then, I found out that the owner of the dispensary sprays his plants with BT on a weekly basis.

He didn't spray and his soil mix was very very new which could be why as well. That's a lot of spraying! I can't buy dispense weed either.

 

[Highlife42]

Usually, the guy that tries to insert himself into conversations are the ones that you gotta watch out for. I don't think that anyone else is here to stoke their ego but you. We were having a good conversation until angry man showed up. I'm more likely to mute you than listen to you. RIU is the last place that I would take KNF information from, it's a new concept on this forum and most don't have a grasp on it yet.

angry. Dude im supplying quality info, helping others out. While you sit back and however you grow the goods is okay with me, but dont tell me my way is wrong.. AND guess what? if RIU is the last place you would get info from, then why are you here. BC unless you are out in public, busting down peoples door, and asking legit people questions, doing research and applying those practices; then its clear to see why you are here. So show how you are not flexbile to someone elses growing styles and to think that they have it wrong. I KNF all day everyday bro! ITS WORK. AND LOTS OF IT. 3.33ph on all ferments. Legitly fermented. BC guess what again, pants ferment their energy, it just becomes more bioavailable and more quickly when we do it for them. ALL we gotta do is just water it in. NO ego. Science. Math, all types of stuff man. THe plant of 1,000 molecules. GTFOH.. I was concurring with you about spraying fungi? is that what you mentioned?