FLIR leaf temperatures & VPD

[Bratt]

Wondering people’s thoughts on what information a FLIR image can give in relation to humidity, light, EC or temperature adjustments.
This photo @ ambient 28.8, 65% humidity, led600w ec.7 dwc
After this photo I raised the light a little and turned off a couple of fans, slowed extractor to let humidity come up. Was this correct do people think?
Thanks, the vpd concept took me some reading.

 

[salmonetin]

VPD Calculator

The VPD calculator finds the vapor pressure deficit for a given temperature and humidity measurement, and produces a simple chart.

www.omnicalculator.com

VPD Chart

Vapor pressure deficit (VPD) chart & calculator for horticulture in controlled environment. Cannabis, tomatoes, leafy greens, cucumber.

vpdchart.com

Grow guide - VPD Chart

Temperature, humidity, and vapour pressure deficit for microclimate control in greenhouse cultivation.

vpdchart.com

The Ultimate Vapor Pressure Deficit (VPD) Guide

"Why devote an entire guide to VPD?" you might ask. The answer is that the vapor pressure deficit (VPD) is extremely important for growing plants. VPD helps you identify the correct range of temperature and humidity to aim for in your grow space. With VPD you can achieve the best results while...

pulsegrow.com

Understanding The Dew Point

hello.pulsegrow.com

Vapor Pressure Deficit - The Ultimate Guide - Dimlux Lighting - The Best Grow Lights

Simply put, Vapor Pressure Deficit measures the difference between the amount of drying power the atmosphere is exerting upon your plants. VPD is the key...

www.dimluxlighting.com

Understanding VPD and Transpiration Rates for Cannabis Cultivation Operations

This article explores how vapor pressure differentials (VPD) affect transpiration rates in cannabis plants. Understanding of VPD at different temperatures and relative humidities, and its effect on this process, is important to gain maximum plant growth.

www.cannabissciencetech.com

...at what altitude are the plants referenced to sea level?....above 500 m ...maybe you must correct the calcs in function of altitude of your cultivar...

DLI Chart...thanks to Ledtonic...similar to VPD Charts...but for DLI...

DLI (Daily Light Integral) Chart - Understand your plants' PPFD & photoperiod requirements

[Updated 02 March 2021] How intense light (PPFD) to expose various species to and for how long.Light intensity, or rather, how densely packed light is with photons, is measured in micromoles per meter squared per second, µmol/m2/s. This is called PPFD (Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density)...

www.ledtonic.com

e function desactived...le gusto al autor del hilo...este no lo borrare...enjoy the info...

Paz y Amor....en 2021 aun mucho mas...

Saludos desde Tenerife - Islas Canarias

 

[Bratt]

Anything red or white is exceeding recommended vpd.

 

[Chopshop697]

As a reference, I'd put a piece of electrical tape (black or blue) on a small cut up piece of aluminum can in the canopy. That should give you an emissivity reference of the air temperature. I haven't tried it yet, since I'm still in the seedling stage, but I'm curious to see if my theory plays out and if you can accurately determine the leaf vs. air temperature with a FLIR. Eliminate error with a single measuring device and two targets?

 

[Chopshop697]

I also had a shower thought of using an IR sensor on an arm, with an air piston to rotate the sensor - position 1 records a leaf temperature, position 2 records the aluminum/electric tape temperature. Or, if we really wanted to get fancy, have a roving robot with an IR camera and optical pattern recognition go up and down the aisle measuring leaves and targets while recording temperature differential!

 

[Roy O'Bannon]

Marking this thread for when I'm smarter.

 

[Bratt]

I also had a shower thought of using an IR sensor on an arm, with an air piston to rotate the sensor - position 1 records a leaf temperature, position 2 records the aluminum/electric tape temperature. Or, if we really wanted to get fancy, have a roving robot with an IR camera and optical pattern recognition go up and down the aisle measuring leaves and targets while recording temperature differential!

Great idea, I’ll try it. I’ll also try pics of a few different environments. Bottom leaves freezing, hot tops... what does that mean? In dwc it is low nutrient?
the difference in leaf surface indicates low vpd in lower canopy leaves, high at top. More food?

 

[Bratt]

Marking this thread for when I'm smarter.

Salmonetin compiled a great selection of reference. Thanks again.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Site permanently closed due to piracy and trading off Issues

Site permanently closed due to piracy and trading off Issues. Manic Botanix, nor its author, is in no way linked to any commercial interests claiming a link. Full stop. Contact [email protected] or follow on Instagram @manicbotanix

manicbotanix.com

 

[Chopshop697]

Not sure how the FLIR calculates the max and min, but it looks like you're within about 2 deg C from low to high. Certainly not freezing! My understanding is that the temperature differential of a sweating leaf vs. true ambient at the same height is the input to a VPD determination.

 

[Bratt]

Not sure how the FLIR calculates the max and min, but it looks like you're within about 2 deg C from low to high. Certainly not freezing! My understanding is that the temperature differential of a sweating leaf vs. true ambient at the same height is the input to a VPD determination.

Great thanks, theres a bit of an ambient temperature gradient too. And humidity. 28.8 measured top canopy level.
FLIR calcs from manual circles in the scene.
They’re not quite growing right. Thin, salted tips.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Wondering people’s thoughts on what information a FLIR image can give in relation to humidity, light, EC or temperature adjustments.
This photo @ ambient 28.8, 65% humidity, led600w ec.7 dwc
After this photo I raised the light a little and turned off a couple of fans, slowed extractor to let humidity come up. Was this correct do people think?
Thanks, the vpd concept took me some reading.View attachment 4863871

I think this thread points out some of the problems with using vpd as a tool for finding a "perfect" environment; it's better thought of as a "dial-in" factor for which direction to take your environment, not an exact goal as this may differ from one grow to another and especially to one set of measuring equipment. We tried a few IR-thermometers that varied around 2 degrees C and we're stumped on what values to use.

It's well worth remembering that vpd is only one of the factors that affect transpiration/stomata opening:
- Blue/violet/uv light all have an effect on stomata opening it. This means if you build a wide blue channel into your grow light you can compensate if you cannot get your transpiration right.
- CO2 : more ambient co2 tends to close the stomata decreasing transpiration.
- atmospheric pressure: I'd have to double check to be sure but iirc the vpd equation refers to atmospheric pressure somewhere which I assume most the tables bouncing around the net would set as standard sea level. But growing in altitudes, storms or with a negative or positive pressure would affect the air pressure which throws another wrench in the numbers. This is why I suggest it's pointless to try to find answers to what exact temp/the/vpd you should go for. I think for the fine-tuning we are just stuck with standard practice: make changes and see how the plants respond. What will help you in this case (more than a flir) is a unit which measures, displays and log your vpd. This way you will always have that reference point available and not hiding behind tables and calculations.
I know trolmaster and pulse have some, but they're expensive, I think there's also instructions on ledgardener on how to do it with google home assistant.

 

[Bratt]

I think this thread points out some of the problems with using vpd as a tool for finding a "perfect" environment; it's better thought of as a "dial-in" factor for which direction to take your environment, not an exact goal as this may differ from one grow to another and especially to one set of measuring equipment. We tried a few IR-thermometers that varied around 2 degrees C and we're stumped on what values to use.

It's well worth remembering that vpd is only one of the factors that affect transpiration/stomata opening:
- Blue/violet/uv light all have an effect on stomata opening it. This means if you build a wide blue channel into your grow light you can compensate if you cannot get your transpiration right.
- CO2 : more ambient co2 tends to close the stomata decreasing transpiration.
- atmospheric pressure: I'd have to double check to be sure but iirc the vpd equation refers to atmospheric pressure somewhere which I assume most the tables bouncing around the net would set as standard sea level. But growing in altitudes, storms or with a negative or positive pressure would affect the air pressure which throws another wrench in the numbers. This is why I suggest it's pointless to try to find answers to what exact temp/the/vpd you should go for. I think for the fine-tuning we are just stuck with standard practice: make changes and see how the plants respond. What will help you in this case (more than a flir) is a unit which measures, displays and log your vpd. This way you will always have that reference point available and not hiding behind tables and calculations.
I know trolmaster and pulse have some, but they're expensive, I think there's also instructions on ledgardener on how to do it with google home assistant.

I guess the vpd information and calculating it told me how I could back the “pressure” off the plants while I figured out a better E.C. Or what the problem was. The FLIR showed up hot grow points, very close to ambient. I’m not sure how vpd relates to plant parts, but it’s calculated higher when the ambient/LST differential is small.
vpd also told me I was exactly in the zone, the plants should be doing better. CO2 @1250.

So. Doubled the EC. Ambient 28. No sub 2 degree difference. They look better. Still raising EC, and VPD. Light now max. Note scrog net inability to cool itself.

 

[Rocket Soul]

I guess the vpd information and calculating it told me how I could back the “pressure” off the plants while I figured out a better E.C. Or what the problem was. The FLIR showed up hot grow points, very close to ambient. I’m not sure how vpd relates to plant parts, but it’s calculated higher when the ambient/LST differential is small.
vpd also told me I was exactly in the zone, the plants should be doing better. CO2 @1250.

So. Doubled the EC. Ambient 28. No sub 2 degree difference. They look better. Still raising EC, and VPD. Light now max. Note scrog net inability to cool itself. View attachment 4868859

Remember: if you raise vpd and ec at the same time your plants will transpire and drink more and on top of that the feed is stronger. Better change one thing at a time

 

[Bratt]

As a reference, I'd put a piece of electrical tape (black or blue) on a small cut up piece of aluminum can in the canopy. That should give you an emissivity reference of the air temperature. I haven't tried it yet, since I'm still in the seedling stage, but I'm curious to see if my theory plays out and if you can accurately determine the leaf vs. air temperature with a FLIR. Eliminate error with a single measuring device and two targets?

So My thinking is. Under LED, where IR doesn’t add 2deg, either ;
Above 26 LST is bad, or;
Ambient/LST differential below 2 is bad.
Because, photosynthesis is compromised at the hot location, not because of the light. In my case, low EC, pumped water through plant, drinking loads, but tip nutrient was too low to keep up with the demand.
Maybe sort of feedback loop too? Increased LST at tips = increased VPD = even higher demand?... Nek minute tips are cooked, or throwing boy bits.
Whatever the case, these tips have cooled with an EC correction. It appears at this stage... so far so far..

 

[Bratt]

We tried a few IR-thermometers that varied around 2 degrees C and we're stumped on what values to use.

It's well worth remembering that vpd is only one of the factors affect transpiration/stomata opening:


- the vpd equation refers to atmospheric pressure

what
in this case (more than a flir) is a unit which measures, displays and log your vpd.

FLIR might provide insight into the heat distribution? more visual than an IR gun.

The key point. VPD is only one factor. But try and get it in the zone I think It’s been helpful to me, combines transpiration energy (cooling power, evaporation + photosynthesis ? ), humidity & temperature.

Haven’t plugged in pressure, anyone know how much influence that has? the influence humidity and temp play in the calculation is intuitive and reasonable resolution to make small adjustment.

I’d love a vpd controller..

Out of interest, an impressive demonstration of cottons ability to cool itself.