Tesla New Model Unveil...

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
This looks interesting and should take the pressure off of EV batteries by replacing them for grid storage, thereby lowering the price of lithium EV batteries. Looks like a winner to me, not much in the way of technical obstacles and it can make the green grid happen by storing power from renewables like wind and solar.
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New Iron-Air Battery outperforms best Lithium Ion tech. Cheap. Abundant. Non-toxic & Carbon Free.

Iron Air batteries use cheap, non toxic, abundant materials and potentially have a far higher energy density than Lithium Ion batteries. The technology was first developed by NASA in the seventies, but no major commercial application has ever come to fruition. Now though, a US company, backed by some pretty big investors, has developed a grid scale iron air battery that could be a real industry disruptor.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Here is something I can see catching on in North America, many families have 2 cars and this would make a great second one. China is about to introduce a ton of these vehicles that use the same kind of low cost LiFePO4 long life batteries. Use the ICE car for road trips and one family member can use it to commute and for local shopping trips. It's cheap, uses Lithium phosphate Iron batteries and generally have a range of 200km and can be easily recharged at home or from a regular 120V socket. Perfect for commuting and local trips like shopping and would make a great second car for many families. Low temperature performance is an issue though, but there are work arounds, many cars in Canada use block heaters now in winter, so a battery heater/charger wouldn't be a stretch.

A good way for many to transition into EVs
The $4000 Electric Car Dominating China


Here are the batteries these low cost vehicles use.

China's CATL Group is Winning the EV Battery Industry
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Hey that looks just like (well kinda lol) what I booked yesterday for an upcoming trip to Bermuda. It was a choice between that and a twizy but I have fishing stuff so needed the “bigger” model lol.
A sure sign yer all vaxxed up, a trip to the tropics, or semi tropics! They used to make ya cut yer old car in half to get a new one there and scooters are popular.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
One thing about these LFP cells is their long life of 2 or even 3000 charging cycles vs 300 or 400 for a Lion cell and should last the life of the vehicle. There are other iron based chemistries coming that are better for grid storage than LFP cells. Expect to see lots of LFP batteries in small budget EV cars with more limited range and on bikes.
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What Tesla’s bet on iron-based batteries means for manufacturers

Elon Musk earlier this week made his most bullish statements yet on iron-based batteries, noting that Tesla is making a “long-term shift” toward older, cheaper lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) cells in its energy storage products and some entry-level EVs.

The Tesla CEO mused that the company’s batteries may eventually be roughly two-thirds iron-based and one-third nickel-based across its products. “And this is actually good because there’s plenty of iron in the world,” he added.

Musk’s comments reflect a change that is already underway within the automotive sector, mainly in China. Battery chemistries outside of China have been predominantly nickel-based — specifically nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC) and nickel-cobalt-aluminum (NCA). These newer chemistries have become attractive to automakers due to their higher energy density, letting original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) improve the range of their batteries.

If Musk’s bullishness is heralding a genuine shift across the EV industry, the question is whether battery makers outside of China will be able to keep up.

Musk is not the only automotive executive to signal a return to the LFP formula. Earlier this year, Ford CEO Jim Farley said the company would use LFP batteries in some commercial vehicles. Meanwhile, Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess announced during the company’s inaugural battery day presentation that LFP would be used in some VW entry-level EVs.

On the energy storage front, Musk’s comments about using LFP-based chemistries in Powerwall and Megapack are in line with other stationary energy storage companies pushing for iron-based formulas. “The stationary storage industry wants to move to LFP because it’s cheaper,” Sam Jaffe, who heads the battery research firm Cairn Energy Research Advisors, told TechCrunch.

LFP battery cells are attractive for a few different reasons. For one, they’re not dependent on ultra-scarce and price-volatile raw materials like cobalt and nickel. (Cobalt, which is predominantly sourced from the Democratic Republic of Congo, has undergone additional scrutiny due to inhumane mining conditions.) And while they are less energy-dense than nickel-based chemistries, LFP batteries are much cheaper. This is good news for those looking to spur the shift to electric vehicles because lowering the cost per vehicle will likely be key to greater EV adoption.

Musk clearly sees a major future for iron-based chemistries at Tesla, and his comments have helped thrust LFP back into the spotlight. But there’s one place where they’ve remained the star of the show: China.

China’s monopoly on LFP
“LFP is pretty much only produced in China,” Caspar Rawles, head of price and data assessments at the research firm Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, explained in a recent interview with TechCrunch.

China’s dominance in LFP battery production in part relates to a series of key LFP patents, which are managed by a consortium of universities and research institutions. This consortium came to an agreement with Chinese battery makers a decade ago under which the manufacturers would not be charged a licensing fee providing that the LFP batteries were used only in Chinese markets.

Hence, China cornered the LFP market.

Battery makers in China may benefit most from a potential tectonic shift toward LFP — specifically BYD and CATL, the latter of which already manufactures LFP batteries for Tesla vehicles built and sold in China. (Volkswagen, meanwhile, has a substantial stake in Chinese LFP maker Gotion High-Tech.) These battery makers aren’t slowing down: In January, CATL and Shenzhen Dynanonic signed an agreement with a local Chinese province to build an LFP cathode plant at a cost of $280 million over three years.

The LFP patents are due to expire in 2022, industry analyst Roskill explains, which could give battery manufacturers outside China time to start shifting some of their production toward iron-based formulas. However, all of the planned battery factories in Europe and North America, many of which are joint ventures with South Korean industry giants like LG Chem or SK Innovation, are still focused on nickel-based chemistries.

“For the U.S. to take advantage of LFP’s strengths, North American manufacturing will be necessary,” Jaffe explained. “Everyone building a gigafactory in the U.S. today is planning on making high nickel chemistries. There’s an enormous unmet need for locally manufactured LFP batteries.”

Rawles said he expects some LFP capacity in North America and Europe in the coming years, particularly after the patents expire. He pointed out that both CATL and SVOLT, another battery maker, have been making moves in Germany — but both of these companies are Chinese, which leaves open the question of whether other Asian or Western companies can compete in the LFP market. (Stellantis chose SVOLT as one of its battery suppliers from 2025 onwards.)
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Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
A sure sign yer all vaxxed up, a trip to the tropics, or semi tropics! They used to make ya cut yer old car in half to get a new one there and scooters are popular.
Up vaxxed up yes. And electric makes sense there (no rental cars available) hopefully the delta doesn’t screw it up for the 3rd attempt :(
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Up vaxxed up yes. And electric makes sense there (no rental cars available) hopefully the delta doesn’t screw it up for the 3rd attempt :(
Ya might wanna wait till the delta wave burns through though, I figure a couple of months should do it at the rate it's going. Yer not going until late fall or winter are ya?
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Ya might wanna wait till the delta wave burns through though, I figure a couple of months should do it at the rate it's going. Yer not going until late fall or winter are ya?
November to visit my daughter and given what’s happening who the fuck knows. It was supposed to be April 2020 the first time :(.
 

smokinrav

Well-Known Member
Here is something I can see catching on in North America, many families have 2 cars and this would make a great second one. China is about to introduce a ton of these vehicles that use the same kind of low cost LiFePO4 long life batteries. Use the ICE car for road trips and one family member can use it to commute and for local shopping trips. It's cheap, uses Lithium phosphate Iron batteries and generally have a range of 200km and can be easily recharged at home or from a regular 120V socket. Perfect for commuting and local trips like shopping and would make a great second car for many families. Low temperature performance is an issue though, but there are work arounds, many cars in Canada use block heaters now in winter, so a battery heater/charger wouldn't be a stretch.

A good way for many to transition into EVs
The $4000 Electric Car Dominating China


Here are the batteries these low cost vehicles use.

China's CATL Group is Winning the EV Battery Industry
They dont build those to survive NHTSA testing
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
They dont build those to survive NHTSA testing
Small cheap EVs are coming and look upon these as like the old Japanese cars, with constantly improving quality. They need something more robust for the North American market, something that can maintain freeway speeds from the burbs to the city center. Larger wheels and more KW would be nice and the 200km range is OK for it's purpose. That purpose would be as a second car, with an ice vehicle as a primary and for road trips. Many families have two jobs and two cars, something like this could make one of them for many people and introduce them to EVs. These small vehicles can also charge off of regular house current and an overnight charge can top off the battery for many commuters.

NHTSA testing is coming for them and other cheap mini EVs, but they are a logical way for many people to break into EVs and the operating cost is dirt cheap too. As a second car it must get people back and forth to work at freeway speeds and most people commute under 60 miles both ways, home charging is another thing most folks want.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Nope, they build them for where they make sense to use, not a cross country trip to Wally World lol
They still need air bags and a few other items to meet regulatory requirements for North America and the EU, I'm pretty sure if they or their partners are shooting for those markets they have taken this into consideration. Primarily a city commuter option.

I was wondering about small rental hybrid and battery trailers to supplement EV range for weekend trips. People could rent a trailer, and if their vehicle was equipped with a connector and a hitch, they could tow extra battery range and even a hybrid setup for continuous charging. It might be a business model that can work for awhile, renting and selling booster trailers to EV drivers who need temporary extra range. I'm thinking a standardized connector on the rear of an EV might be a useful future feature or retrofit. These LFP batteries have up to 3000 charging cycles before degradation and will last many years, some of these mini EVs could have a very long lifetime considering their electric drive trains.
 

injinji

Well-Known Member
I saw this a few months ago. Pretty neat for the price. My farm is scattered, but it's only like four miles from one end to the other. This would work perfect to run down to the riverhouse to cut the okra.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
I saw this a few months ago. Pretty neat for the price. My farm is scattered, but it's only like four miles from one end to the other. This would work perfect to run down to the riverhouse to cut the okra.

Imagine how it would perform with a 10KW motor instead of a one KW 1.5 HP motor and an upgraded Lion battery pack, instead of a LFP battery. These are better than an ebike for many people and can carry passengers and freight in all weather. A fellow could upgrade something like this over time to increase performance and range. These things have low enough energy requirements that home charging is a viable option. The car depicted would have limited utility and could not keep up with even urban traffic, but with a 10KW motor and larger wheels, speed should not be an issue.
 

injinji

Well-Known Member
Imagine how it would perform with a 10KW motor instead of a one KW 1.5 HP motor and an upgraded Lion battery pack, instead of a LFP battery. These are better than an ebike for many people and can carry passengers and freight in all weather. A fellow could upgrade something like this over time to increase performance and range. These things have low enough energy requirements that home charging is a viable option. The car depicted would have limited utility and could not keep up with even urban traffic, but with a 10KW motor and larger wheels, speed should not be an issue.
The video I posted said it cost under $1K, but I saw another that said they had bought extra batteries and it was 1200. Still cheaper than a golf cart.
 
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