How far can "ripeness" be pushed?

[Kellcat2go]

My understanding has always been that the flowers are at their peak ripeness when the trichomes become milky with about 20% of them turning amber.

But when did this become the common ideal?

I'm pretty old and been growing off and on (mostly with no idea what I was doing, tbh) since the mid 1970's. I never knew anyone back then who had any idea about trichomes. Back then, the only way growers knew the plants were ripe was when the seeds were ripe! And those ripe seeds usually were accompanied by leaf color that was light green or yellow (gold)...sometimes reddish-brown..."Fall colors" let's say.

Growers who grow plants for smoking, don't (usually) allow their female plants to be pollinated and produce seeds. At some point in time, the milky/amber trichome formula became the ideal for determining when to harvest. My bet is that, when people determined that THC was the "psychoactive component" in marijuana, and started to test for it, they found that the milky stage was when THC levels were highest. When the milkiness changes to amber, then there is degradation in THC...Therefore, all amber trichs would produce less potent marijuana. But...Is that true? What about the other, non-tested-for components in the flowers? Do any of those increase? -flavonoids, terpenoids, volatile esters, etc.

I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that a lot of personal-use growers are using big, industrial, high-yield grow ops as a model to follow. "The guy with the biggest plants, wins". And, in doing so, the small op growers cheat themselves out of the luxury of being able to take extra time for their plants to ripen and develop more complexities and unique smells and flavors.

I can say, for sure, that whenever I scope any weed that I buy in the commercial market, the trichomes are clear. In other words, they are underdeveloped and not ripe. And I'm not talking about some bottom-shelf shwag. I'm talking about the best stuff available in the store! This is the stuff that people buy and then review and say how great it is....But they also have to stuff their noses entirely into the jars in order to get the smell! "Piney" "Lemony", they say. I think part of it is that the pinene and limonene terpenes develop earlier than some of the others. Maybe if those flowers were let to TRULY ripen to milky/amber or all amber, then they wouldn't be so piney or lemony anymore. But, hey, if the big producers need to meet a quota and the plants are still not ripe, then just harvest them, anyway. It' good enough.

Based on this, I don't believe it's a good idea for the personal-use ops growers to use the same criteria as the industry uses...because the industry doesn't care about putting out ripe marijuana.

Thoughts?

Awesome! I'm gonna follow your advise, thanks

 

[Slartibart4242]

I know this isn’t exactly on topic. But to add to wishing there were true cultivars in the dispensary world. I wish that more people would understand the evolution of cannabis and incorporate that knowledge into their grow operation.

One of the projects that I want to start once I get land is to compost a specific soil for each strain. The terpene profile is pulled from the soil overtime. So if you wanted a very blueberry or strawberry flavored plant you would grow blueberry and strawberry bushes and then compost the fruit in different compost bins and then use each for their own strains. However this will take many years to reach its full capability. Ideally you would start with a blueberry or strawberry strain to begin with but you would have to use both male and female plants to induce the genes through many lineages. Most of the seeds that we get are only F1-F3 which is why you see 4+ phenotypes for a “strain”. You won’t actually get a true stability until you are at least at a F7 lineage and that’s only if you were perfect in your breeding. It’s typically more like F9 plus.

In addition I see all these threads about 11/13 versus 12/12 light schedule for flowering or whether you should lower the light cycle later in flower to mimic the sun. I personally use 11/13 but for the most superficial reason as that both numbers are prime and I can say I optimusprimed the flower. But in reality you have to think of the fact that cannabis is highly a highly adaptable plant. If the genetics were grown indoors under 12/12 for many years than it will have adapted to that light schedule. The most common rebuttal I see to the 11/13 ideology and stepping the timer is that there is no “research” to support these claims. But if you read Dutch passions blog on flowering they specifically mention stepping the timer as a good option to decrease flower time. The point I am trying to make is how would you even establish a base like to compare your hypothesis to. If the base genes were already adapted to the “accepted” norm of a 12/12 flower schedule.

However as for hope for the future I have seen at conventions that there are projects where people want to attempt to renaturalize the plant to environment to attempt to recreate the lost landraces since we can now thankfully grow weed legally outdoors in many states. I believe that there are people who want to get back the lost genetics but there are many factors to consider.

I wish I could remember the name of the specific convention talk that I watched so I could post the link, but the talking points were focused on soil makeup, light type, and genetics define the expression of the strain and how DNA mapping has exposed the vast genetic makeup of what is even considered a strain, as no two OG Kushes are the same just because different breeders crossed the “same” strains to make their own OG Kush or Girl Scout Cookies or whatever the current flavor of the month strain is that is in vogue. By my fear from the DNA sequencing is that once weed becomes federally legal what’s going to stop a company like Monsanto from genetically modifying strains and then owning the patent on a weed DNA sequence. Again I can remember the specific video I watched but a company already has a patent on a particular CBD “Charlottes web” type strain that they were able to breed out the cherry tasting terpene profile. So the precedent has already been started for large companies to begin to own the genetics.

I know this doesn’t directly address the original posters question but my two cents is that it is going to be different for every plant and the process of cross breeding/environmental factors that lead to that specific strain are going to cause varying results in ripeness. If the strain is predominately chopped early and they use that strain to make their feminized seeds then most likely the plants genetics will degrade and the plant won’t be able to pushed to full ripeness after many lineages of this practice. We forget that once upon a time the bees and wind where the controlling factors in evolution and from my perspective humans need to quit believing that we are smarter than Gaia “Mother Nature”. Someone who has billions of years worth of knowledge. I mean the AC units alone on large commercial buildings accounts for 10-15% of global warming depending upon the report you read. “Modern convince” has only further alienated humans from nature....

But then again I’m autistic so I think differently than the norm....

 

[BullPower]

Was told by a source in the business that all pre-rolls are just the trim… no bud material at all. And that’s after shaking it for keif

Get a couple and cut them open. It hurt my feelings. Lol

 

[BullPower]

I expect this to happen sooner or later in any market that is liberalized enough, and for long enough. At when "mail order" of some kind is possible and risk-free, this boutique-style niche market will become large enough for some high-end sellers to exist.

If and when it goes here, that's my plan. It'll be the only way to stand out.

 

[Lockedin]

I know this isn’t exactly on topic. But to add to wishing there were true cultivars in the dispensary world.........

True cultivars in dispensaries ...

I Love the idea!
The catch is that the average toker still shops by THC% - kids just wanna get stoned. (as this and many other threads show).

There was a brand - Henry's, IIRC, that did limited releases that were really nice. I got an eighth of Velvet Purps (very unique terps, etc...) that was pretty incredible - but they seem to have stopped those in favor of more "standard" strains.

My local growmies and I share seeds & of course product.
I've said it and will keep saying it:
The worst grower in my group has tastier smoke than ANY of the dozen dispensaries around here.

Everything in the dispensaries has a vague, "weed" smell. Usually a sweet or perfume taste, sometimes berries or citrus <-- None of it has a strong taste or strain-specific effects.

That is another reason I've chosen to grow my own.

 

[Slartibart4242]

True cultivars in dispensaries ...

I Love the idea!
The catch is that the average toker still shops by THC% - kids just wanna get stoned. (as this and many other threads show).

There was a brand - Henry's, IIRC, that did limited releases that were really nice. I got an eighth of Velvet Purps (very unique terps, etc...) that was pretty incredible - but they seem to have stopped those in favor of more "standard" strains.

Yeah. I agree the average consumer doesn’t know what amazing weed is and sadly most people just look at a number that doesn’t mean much. Sometimes I watch shows like growers network just to look at how large scale grow operations work. I remember watching one on Kings in California and they claimed to have a strain that tested over 40% THC and almost 50% total cannabanoids, which isn’t even possible. But they are a public company with deep pockets that pays labs to cheat the numbers. I mean if you cut off just the outside of the nug you can skew the results. But they also claimed to not grow anything that doesn’t have an 8 week flower. If it’s not 8 weeks they throw it out.

However if I’m out of my own stuff I don’t mind grabbing an ounce of the B bulk buds for $100. Is it my favorite no, but for the cost it will get me through until I have more of my own.

I think the problem is that in such a saturated market it’s hard to differentiate yourself on a commercial scale. I mean there are small boutiques that care about their product, but typically they only grow enough to stock their own dispensary. So unless you are lucky enough to live by such a place, your better off just growing your own. But I think that’s the greater message of this thread. Finding something that you like at the ripeness that you like is all that matters. I’ve been buying regular seeds whenever I get a chance just so I have stuff to breed with later in life. But it’s funny how even Dutch companies are carrying “American genetics” because a name is more important than the product in today’s day and age.

Not to be devils advocate but at most dispensaries you are looking at a flower that is behind glass, so what’s a company to do to get their stuff to sell? All the consumer has is a name, a thc %, and a glance at the buds to decide. No smell test no smoke test sample. So if you have a 12% THC stain that tastes like the nectar of the gods, how are you going to convince people to buy it. I mean you can give samples to the dispensary workers as motivation for them to push your product, but what happens in 3-6 months when all those employees quit? Do you have to keep pimping your product to the resellers and even then how much information can you get the employee to remember when most are in their young twenties.

believe me I wish I had the land and money to start my own boutique shop. I would only use rosin as an extract and train bees to create my honeys. But that’s me as I prefer organic with no chemicals. I taste the chemicals in hydro the second I hit it and I hate that flavor. Flushing doesn’t get rid of that chemical flavor regardless of what people claim.

But I look at cannabis the same way Jet li looks at tea in the movie fearless...

 

[Milky Weed]

Yeah. I agree the average consumer doesn’t know what amazing weed is and sadly most people just look at a number that doesn’t mean much. Sometimes I watch shows like growers network just to look at how large scale grow operations work. I remember watching one on Kings in California and they claimed to have a strain that tested over 40% THC and almost 50% total cannabanoids, which isn’t even possible. But they are a public company with deep pockets that pays labs to cheat the numbers. I mean if you cut off just the outside of the nug you can skew the results. But they also claimed to not grow anything that doesn’t have an 8 week flower. If it’s not 8 weeks they throw it out.

However if I’m out of my own stuff I don’t mind grabbing an ounce of the B bulk buds for $100. Is it my favorite no, but for the cost it will get me through until I have more of my own.

I think the problem is that in such a saturated market it’s hard to differentiate yourself on a commercial scale. I mean there are small boutiques that care about their product, but typically they only grow enough to stock their own dispensary. So unless you are lucky enough to live by such a place, your better off just growing your own. But I think that’s the greater message of this thread. Finding something that you like at the ripeness that you like is all that matters. I’ve been buying regular seeds whenever I get a chance just so I have stuff to breed with later in life. But it’s funny how even Dutch companies are carrying “American genetics” because a name is more important than the product in today’s day and age.

Not to be devils advocate but at most dispensaries you are looking at a flower that is behind glass, so what’s a company to do to get their stuff to sell? All the consumer has is a name, a thc %, and a glance at the buds to decide. No smell test no smoke test sample. So if you have a 12% THC stain that tastes like the nectar of the gods, how are you going to convince people to buy it. I mean you can give samples to the dispensary workers as motivation for them to push your product, but what happens in 3-6 months when all those employees quit? Do you have to keep pimping your product to the resellers and even then how much information can you get the employee to remember when most are in their young twenties.

believe me I wish I had the land and money to start my own boutique shop. I would only use rosin as an extract and train bees to create my honeys. But that’s me as I prefer organic with no chemicals. I taste the chemicals in hydro the second I hit it and I hate that flavor. Flushing doesn’t get rid of that chemical flavor regardless of what people claim.

But I look at cannabis the same way Jet li looks at tea in the movie fearless...

5.0% terps is more believable but still very very high. 50% would be a wet nug.

 

[Slartibart4242]

5.0% terps is more believable but still very very high. 50% would be a wet nug.

here is the video if you want to watch it. But I guess they said it was 44% and only 8 weeks of flower for their strain GMO

 

[Lockedin]

I am blessed to live in Socal- there are over a dozen dispensaries, and even more delivery services within 3 miles of my pad.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dispo weed - it works, and there is still something very cool about walking up to a counter full of legal weed products.

I'm not a great grower - I'm proof that following direction begets great weed.
My weed blows the dispensaries out of the water.
I cashed in a bunch of loyalty points on a high end ounce a while ago --- still paid too much --- and the ounce was just "good".

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

I think the problem is that in such a saturated market it’s hard to differentiate yourself on a commercial scale.

It is the same in all mass markets. Cannabis is not different, why would it?

A comparison to the wine market is apt. Depending on where you live, it's almost impossible to get a bad wine anymore. It is certainly the case where I live. And still, there is excellence lurking on the shelves, and it's NOT determined by price; but you have no way of finding out, unless you go to special wine stores that let you try before buying.

Not to be devils advocate but at most dispensaries you are looking at a flower that is behind glass, so what’s a company to do to get their stuff to sell? All the consumer has is a name, a thc %, and a glance at the buds to decide. No smell test no smoke test sample.

Here is where the Netherlands are quite different. The places where you can buy flower are the same places where people chill out to smoke it. It is very unfortunate that apparently that is not possible in NA dispensaries.

Do you have to keep pimping your product to the resellers and even then how much information can you get the employee to remember when most are in their young twenties.

It is probably not due to their young age but because they're blazing a lot.

I taste the chemicals in hydro the second I hit it and I hate that flavor. Flushing doesn’t get rid of that chemical flavor regardless of what people claim.

That flushing would change the flavour is a ridiculous notion. It has been demonstrated that it is not true. The plant accumulates the nutrients over months, how would flushing for a few days change the plant chemistry in a significant way?

It's probably possible to get quite close to organic with hydro if you have the right fertilizers. Probably to the point where most people won't know the difference. It is really complex though, very difficult for the companies who are supposed to make the fertilizers to create a convincing product. And then, you're in the realm of marketing and myths once more, where the growers do not have a good way to find the products that work.

 

[Slartibart4242]

Here is where the Netherlands are quite different. The places where you can buy flower are the same places where people chill out to smoke it. It is very unfortunate that apparently that is not possible in NA dispensaries.

Hey I’m not trying to spread misinformation so I should clarify:

In the US it varies state to state, and you have to remember that technically weed is still illegal on a federal level and classified as a schedule 1 Drug. In my state there are dispensaries that do have a smoking room, but the dispensary has to apply for an additional license and pay an additional fee to allow smoking on the premise, so it’s not the norm but the exception.

I do hope that more places eventually have a smoke room, but with COVID and everything going on in the world it will probably be a while before this becomes the norm where I live. Mask mandates and social distancing regulations seem to be changing every week, so If I get stuff from a dispensary I usually find myself using the app weedmaps and literally selecting the weed through the app by just looking at pictures and then the bud tender brings out the order to the car.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

then the bud tender brings out the order to the car

This is so bizarre from my point of view .

Drive-through weed. Welcome to America!

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

With regards to smoking where you buy: in Europe there is a non-smoking policy in many countries that applies to restaurants and bars. The Netherlands have an exemption for coffee shops. Quite extraordinary in my eyes, not sure if that would go through where I live (if weed was even legal, which it still is not).

I think if you want to run a boutique-style dispensary, it would be mandatory to allow "sampling" on the premise (i.e. have a smoking room or attached coffeeshop-style bar); much like wine-tasting stores where you can then buy the wine.

 

[ComfortCreator]

Ah my Euro friend, don't underestimate the laziness of our people here. It's insulting that you think the drive thru is crazy...brother we have delivery! Why drive if someone else will do it and you can pay them? Our entire economy is based upon the idea that the more money you have the less you, yourself, have to do!

I'm sure there are services that will pick which kinds for you too, gosh forbid you might have to think. Lol.

Sure there are some medical patients who benefit from delivery but don't kid yourself, cannabis isnt some life saving medicine they cant do without.

Nobody beats the USA for lazy innovations.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

It's insulting that you think the drive thru is crazy...brother we have delivery!

It does not surprise me that there is a drive-through. Cars are indispensable in NA, understandable considering the low-density population. It is quite different here. I have never owned a car in my life (I'm 44 now), and I do not plan to buy one. Young people in cities do not even get a driver's license (it costs 2k to get one where I live)!
Of course in more rural areas it gets inconvenient without a car, but in cities you often do not need one.
We use bicycles as a standard mode of transportation. In the Netherlands... it's almost a given.
Electric bicycles have months-long waiting lists if you want to buy one.

As far as delivery goes: I actually think it is a good development. It's very bad that Amazon basically owns that market, but in general I like it. It's more economical to have the stuff delivered to you instead of getting in a car, driving a fair distance, shopping around for hours and maybe return empty handed.

With regards to delivery the situation here is not much different from NA I guess. A little more regulated (e.g. no Uber, their business model is illegal here for good reasons IMO), but still prevalent.

Nobody beats the USA for lazy innovations.

Not a bad thing in itself, as long as it's environmentally friendly. Sadly, most of these "innovations" are either to promote consumerism (decidedly not eco-friendly) or to control people in a more general sense.

 

[Lockedin]

This is so bizarre from my point of view .

Drive-through weed. Welcome to America!

You should try online delivery!
It's just like the '80's - some dude pulls up in front of the house, I bring cash to his window, he hands me a paper bag full of weed!

 

[Slartibart4242]

We use bicycles as a standard mode of transportation. In the Netherlands... it's almost a given. Electric bicycles have months-long waiting lists if you want to buy one.

Not a bad thing in itself, as long as it's environmentally friendly. Sadly, most of these "innovations" are either to promote consumerism (decidedly not eco-friendly) or to control people in a more general sense.

Well don’t group all Americans in the same boat... I am a person that prefers to walk or ride my bike over driving. However I grew up in Germany at a young age, so thankfully I got to view more of the world than just the USA. There are a lot of green initiatives as well, being the weed initiative... federally the government has mandated that electric cars are the norm by 2030. So right now many states are getting incentives to build out the infrastructure to support electric cars. I mean just yesterday I was reading how a politician in my state is trying to introduce induction charging for the roads so that cars charge while driving (anyone play the video game F-Zero? Lol) and Elon Musk has a $100 million grant competition for innovators to propose solutions to remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Plus we can thank Tesla Motors for restarting the electric car initiative. Yes Elon Musk is South African, but he took over the company from two Americans in California who had the idea to use Nikolai Tesla’s electric motor and put it in a car which led the foundation for the electric car movement. Almost every car manufacture now has a prototype of their own electric car to be released in the next year or two. I do agree that as a whole many US corporations completely disregard their environmental impact. It’s easier and cheaper for them to just pay fines. But there are initiatives to get this to change. But I believe I pointed out in my first post in this thread that people don’t even think about how modern conveniences like A/C raise the ambient temperature of the Earth. Plus more people are considering solar power for the home electricity. So hopefully 10 years down the road we are charging our cars at home using solar and having zero carbon emissions.

In major cities there are lots of people who use their bikes to get around. But there were also people who would look at me cross when they found out I would sometimes walk a mile or more to get groceries and the walk back home, but I also had a Whole Foods across the street from where I lived. So that was the secondary grocery store I would go to that was on the other side of the lake. But when I lived in that state they only had medical weed at the time. Granted with medical weed you could get 1G carts for a $1. And weed was decriminalized to the point where you could have 1.5 ounces in your trunk and it was only a $200 fine, but you couldn’t have more than a 1.5 grams in the front of your car. So enough for a blunt or joint lol. America is weird. But you have to look at it more like it’s the EU where every state is it’s own country. Very different state to state and from town to town. Like magic mushrooms are only legal in certain towns in my state, not state wide.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

Well don’t group all Americans in the same boat...

I don't.

Some of them are Portlandians, after all.

However I grew up in Germany at a young age

Me, too; but I've never been to NA. Would not mind visiting the US and Canada, but I'm strictly opposed to air travel for leisure, so it's probably never going to happen.

Plus we can thank Tesla Motors for restarting the electric car initiative. Yes Elon Musk is South African, but he took over the company from two Americans in California who had the idea to use Nikolai Tesla’s electric motor and put it in a car which led the foundation for the electric car movement.

Whoa. Whoa. Hold your horses.

I mean, nothing against Musk (or Nikolai Tesla), one a daring entrepreneur, the other a visionary inventor.

But neither did Tesla invent the electric motor, nor did Musk invent the electric car (or restart an initiative; there never has been an initiative). As is well-known by now, electric cars did exist in the early 1900s.

What Musk did was make the electric car sexy. He took the ball and just ran with it; that's his thing. The car that he made was not reasonable nor economical, but it showed what's possible if you're ready to spend the money.

Traditional car makers had no interest in making e-cars, or start any "initiatives", not because they couldn't make those cars, but because it did not make sense for them economically before politics stepped in.

Elon Musk is an interesting personality, but he's also pretty nuts. He's just "driven", as they say, and not always in a good way.

"We'll be on Mars in 2025."
Sure, buddy.

 

[Slartibart4242]

But neither did Tesla invent the electric motor, nor did Musk invent the electric car (or restart an initiative; there never has been an initiative). As is well-known by now, electric cars did exist in the early 1900s.

What Musk did was make the electric car sexy. He took the ball and just ran with it; that's his thing. The car that he made was not reasonable nor economical, but it showed what's possible if you're ready to spend the money.

Traditional car makers had no interest in making e-cars, or start any "initiatives", not because they couldn't make those cars, but because it did not make sense for them economically before politics stepped in.

Elon Musk is an interesting personality, but he's also pretty nuts. He's just "driven", as they say, and not always in a good way.

I never said Elon Musk invented the electric car. I said that two guys from California RE-started the initiative, but more importantly perfected the vision of an electric car in the modern age. Elon bought into the company a year and a half into the project and through a court case became a “founder” of the company. He is a great business man and I agree a little different, but he operates on the autistic spectrum as well. For a realize autistic mind we operate on a quantum level meaning our brains feel the energy of the world around us, and Nikolai Tesla believed that to understand the secrets of the universe one must understand resonance and dissonance. The irony is that Elon Musk doesn’t realize the full vision of Nikolai’s understanding of physics but ironically has a company called Tesla. Because if he did he would not be building solar panels or reusable rocket engines to get to space...

The point i was trying to make is that I think that there are humans on earth looking for change in a positive direction. I just don’t want to change this thread into a political thread.

When my original points were that ripeness should be determined by the individual user and that there is going to be a lot of variability between genetics due to many factors that are the result of prohibition and commercialization. It would be hard to think of a baseline to compare to for an experiment, but with more time to think I guess you could if you found a true landrace that hasn’t been evolved by human hands, testing a lighting schedule that more mimics nature. I just don’t know if there are any genetic lines in seed form that were only ever grown outside at this point. I personally use different intervals and step my lights down later in flower. If you have the luxury of being able to do enough plants to clone I would personally test with a few different clones.

I just don’t think that anyone can for definitive say that there is a “perfect” ripeness time, when that answer will be different for everyone. I’ve had good weed and I’ve had amazing weed, but so long as I get high and I am enjoying myself, well than I can’t tell you I had bad weed.

just play around with your genetics, they are our little girls and boys and don’t be afraid to try something more unconventional as innovation wasn’t discovered through following the norm.

I am currently composting blueberry just to start my process of organic terpene enhancement for a blueberry strain. Trying to be eco friendly in my organic grow schedule. I also use mushroom mycelium as my CO2 generators. Once you have spores and a few mason jars, all you need is whole oats and water to make CO2 for years for less than $15. No machines. Just soil, compost, and water. Plus I have a LED light. Can’t get more eco-friendly than that.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

Once you have spores and a few mason jars, all you need is whole oats and water to make CO2 for years for less than $15. No machines. Just soil, compost, and water. Plus I have a LED light. Can’t get more eco-friendly than that.

Let's pick some nits then .

If you use bottled CO2 instead of generating more yourself, that's already more eco-friendly.

But seriously, I like your organic approach. And unironically your postings here are very interesting and thought-provoking. (Not so sure about the autistic quantum-minds, however.)