Def / Excess / Lock-Out - What’s ur take??

[lakesidegrower]

Hoping to get some feedback - growing in amended organic living soil, 4x4 canopy foot print, 450w full spec boards, room is dialed in with inkbirds at 81F/55%. Second run in this room and still using basic genetics until I have everything going smooth - seedsman blueberry and white widow. Fed only compost/ewc tea pHd to 6.5-7.0, and knf inputs, humic/fulvic, myco, aminos and an ewc top dress.

These girls ran perfectly through veg, flipped two weeks ago and started CO2 supp at 1100-1300 PPM, increased temps to 85 and probably increased light levels by about 150ppfd to an overall 750ppfd. Within the first week the newest growth I started seeing this issue - have since lightly top dressed each pot with 2 tbsp of bloom dry amendment (2-8-4) and 1 tsp bat guano about three days ago, watered that in and no change. Last night I gave a light ewc tea with bloom microbes, 1 tbsp bloom mix, and 1 tbsp per gal Epsom salts - 24 hours later and no change.

My white widows, on the other hand, have been loving everything and anything I throw at em, really healthy and no issues at all.

I’ve since cut the CO2 and dialed back the temps to 81, wanna sort this out first. I figure this is either Mg def, K excess, P def or a lock out from screwy pH in the soil. Since hitting her without a dose of P in the bloom and guano and Mg in the Epsom, now I’m scratching head. I’m ordering a Bluelabs soil pen this week, but wondering what you guys think I’m dealing with here.

 

[mudballs]

i see the tiniest amount of burn, just the slightest hint, on the tips, that just says you have a super rich soil going on for them so they have everything, maybe too much of what they need.
My guess since the soil is and your regiment is so rich and the white widow is handling it no problem, then i'd guess it's a bit of stress....that particular strain is just not liking something about your high octane run....maybe the combination of Co2, ppfd increase just went one millibar past what it likes and it's having a hard time getting the right amount of Mg. Im not trying to sound smart at diagnosing plant symptoms, just trying to give feedback so you may be able to get the gears turning towards the right answer

 

[lakesidegrower]

i see the tiniest amount of burn, just the slightest hint, on the tips, that just says you have a super rich soil going on for them so they have everything, maybe too much of what they need.
My guess since the soil is and your regiment is so rich and the white widow is handling it no problem, then i'd guess it's a bit of stress....that particular strain is just not liking something about your high octane run....maybe the combination of Co2, ppfd increase just went one millibar past what it likes and it's having a hard time getting the right amount of Mg. Im not trying to sound smart at diagnosing plant symptoms, just trying to give feedback so you may be able to get the gears turning towards the right answer

100% totally appreciate your response, thanks a ton
I agree with ya with regards to the evidence of the burnt tips as the plants having enough/more than they need, that’s a great observation and one that I didn’t make the connection on - this is exactly why feedback works! I’m kinda stoked just on that lil tidbit haha
I’m down to either lock out or stress as you mentioned. Using the old googlematronic, photos that reference lock out seem to have a similar look, I’m also on the extreme side of N, given how dark my fans are now and through veg, I think that a slight N tox can inhibit absorption of other nutrients. So perhaps a combo of higher than acceptable ph in the soil and an abundance of N (or they are both connected and hence causing the lock out)

im watching the newest growth closely to see how they are looking, but thinking that this issue is starting to progress to the lowers, so I might do a flush tonight.

i wish I didn’t pull that noob move and change a bunch of shit in the environment at once - I can’t even follow my own advice… lol

 

[mudballs]

100% totally appreciate your response, thanks a ton
I agree with ya with regards to the evidence of the burnt tips as the plants having enough/more than they need, that’s a great observation and one that I didn’t make the connection on - this is exactly why feedback works! I’m kinda stoked just on that lil tidbit haha
I’m down to either lock out or stress as you mentioned. Using the old googlematronic, photos that reference lock out seem to have a similar look, I’m also on the extreme side of N, given how dark my fans are now and through veg, I think that a slight N tox can inhibit absorption of other nutrients. So perhaps a combo of higher than acceptable ph in the soil and an abundance of N (or they are both connected and hence causing the lock out)

im watching the newest growth closely to see how they are looking, but thinking that this issue is starting to progress to the lowers, so I might do a flush tonight.

i wish I didn’t pull that noob move and change a bunch of shit in the environment at once - I can’t even follow my own advice… lol

tips are the very first thing i look at when people post pics, tells me a hell of alot about what's going on without the poster even telling me what they're doing. Yeah you have a lot of Nitrogen in there but i do that too cuz we lose a bunch of it through the grow so i rarely ever freak out at high N dark green leaves....like...never....i even like my plants on the razors edge of N toxicity.
Lock out origin is something i've never gotten great at deciphering, could be ph, could be something else, so i started (good or bad) calling the origin a stress induced lock out. Chemistry in the plant just goes bonkers, like a human and insulin/sugar. just having fun with this convo sorry, hope you find the fix or someone chirps in with the answer

 

[lakesidegrower]

tips are the very first thing i look at when people post pics, tells me a hell of alot about what's going on without the poster even telling me what they're doing. Yeah you have a lot of Nitrogen in there but i do that too cuz we lose a bunch of it through the grow so i rarely ever freak out at high N dark green leaves....like...never....i even like my plants on the razors edge of N toxicity.
Lock out origin is something i've never gotten great at deciphering, could be ph, could be something else, so i started (good or bad) calling the origin a stress induced lock out. Chemistry in the plant just goes bonkers, like a human and insulin/sugar. just having fun with this convo sorry, hope you find the fix or someone chirps in with the answer

I’m the same - I dig the dark green leaves
It does seem exactly like that - lock out that started when the plants were stressed.
This is only my second run in this soil, and I did reamend a bit after the last run
Are you watering with RO water? I’ve always wondered about whether my well water is causing me issues.. it’s not terrible and about pH 7.4 out of the tap, 200ppm. (Likely mostly calcium as it draws from a limestone aquifer basically), I know I shouldn’t have to but I add a touch of citric acid to bring the pH down to around 6.5-6.8.

 

[mudballs]

Are you watering with RO water? I’ve always wondered about whether my well water is causing me issues.. it’s not terrible and about pH 7.4 out of the tap, 200ppm. (Likely mostly calcium as it draws from a limestone aquifer basically), I know I shouldn’t have to but I add a touch of citric acid to bring the pH down to around 6.5-6.8.

nah, i use rain water for my outdoor until i run out of stored sources then i water from garden hose city water which is an appalling 8+ ph from tap,lol. It's also above 400ppm lol (i have their lab readout)...rural america, gotta love it.

 

[lakesidegrower]

nah, i use rain water for my outdoor until i run out of stored sources then i water from garden hose city water which is an appalling 8+ ph from tap,lol. It's also above 400ppm lol (i have their lab readout)...rural america, gotta love it.

Haha wow ok so maybe my well water ain’t that bad after all… I’d love to get my water tested and find out the mineral content. You don’t find any issues with Ca excess in your water?

 

[mudballs]

Haha wow ok so maybe my well water ain’t that bad after all… I’d love to get my water tested and find out the mineral content. You don’t find any issues with Ca excess in your water?

Nope.no issues. Now that isnt to say my water wouldnt absolutely torch a delicate bonsai or orchid you know...i just know my dirt and cannabis dont even flinch at it.

 

[lakesidegrower]

@kratos015 any chance I can get ur thoughts? Noticed ur post in another thread regarding defs showing in canopy tops due to LED intensity and spectrum.. thought that was pretty interesting / maybe what I am dealing with?

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Hoping to get some feedback - growing in amended organic living soil, 4x4 canopy foot print, 450w full spec boards, room is dialed in with inkbirds at 81F/55%. Second run in this room and still using basic genetics until I have everything going smooth - seedsman blueberry and white widow. Fed only compost/ewc tea pHd to 6.5-7.0, and knf inputs, humic/fulvic, myco, aminos and an ewc top dress.

These girls ran perfectly through veg, flipped two weeks ago and started CO2 supp at 1100-1300 PPM, increased temps to 85 and probably increased light levels by about 150ppfd to an overall 750ppfd. Within the first week the newest growth I started seeing this issue - have since lightly top dressed each pot with 2 tbsp of bloom dry amendment (2-8-4) and 1 tsp bat guano about three days ago, watered that in and no change. Last night I gave a light ewc tea with bloom microbes, 1 tbsp bloom mix, and 1 tbsp per gal Epsom salts - 24 hours later and no change.

My white widows, on the other hand, have been loving everything and anything I throw at em, really healthy and no issues at all.

I’ve since cut the CO2 and dialed back the temps to 81, wanna sort this out first. I figure this is either Mg def, K excess, P def or a lock out from screwy pH in the soil. Since hitting her without a dose of P in the bloom and guano and Mg in the Epsom, now I’m scratching head. I’m ordering a Bluelabs soil pen this week, but wondering what you guys think I’m dealing with here.View attachment 5016782View attachment 5016781View attachment 5016783

I'd check for bugs too. What are all those white spots?

 

[lakesidegrower]

I'd check for bugs too. What are all those white spots?

I’ve been scoping the leaves daily / I caught some thrips early and hot them with a citric acid foliar - it did the job - applied at lights out but I think those spots are residual burn. It doesn’t seem to be progressing. I bought a better 100x pocket scope just because of dealing with this

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I’ve been scoping the leaves daily / I caught some thrips early and hot them with a citric acid foliar - it did the job - applied at lights out but I think those spots are residual burn. It doesn’t seem to be progressing. I bought a better 100x pocket scope just because of dealing with this

Burn from the citric acid? Did you let it dissolve fully first?

 

[kratos015]

I'd check for bugs too. What are all those white spots?

Seconded. The only time I've had plants look like that was due to out of control gnat population, or my well water fucking with my pH. I'm leaning towards gnats on this one. Spots on the leaves combined with the other symptoms usually means gnats.

@kratos015 any chance I can get ur thoughts? Noticed ur post in another thread regarding defs showing in canopy tops due to LED intensity and spectrum.. thought that was pretty interesting / maybe what I am dealing with?

Something is fucking with your pH for sure. Its either gnats, or hard water if I had to venture a guess. I'm leaning toward gnats too. A good rule of thumb is that if you can see gnats in your room, you've got an infestation. The problem isn't the gnats themselves, but their fucking larvae that can and will eat your roots and potentially leave root rot.

Top dress your pots with sand, and hit the plants with some pepper spray every day. Takes weeks to deal with this, but it is manageable. Spray is for the actual gnats, and the sand ensures that no larvae will escape and that no new eggs/larvae will enter.

I'm guessing you've grown with these lights and used CO2 in past grows, so if this were just the Mg def from extra photosynthesis you would have encountered it by now. I'm also guessing your water source has been consistent for the past few months. Please correct me if any of those guesses are incorrect.

Pretty sure its gnats though.

 

[lakesidegrower]

Seconded. The only time I've had plants look like that was due to out of control gnat population, or my well water fucking with my pH. I'm leaning towards gnats on this one. Spots on the leaves combined with the other symptoms usually means gnats.




Something is fucking with your pH for sure. Its either gnats, or hard water if I had to venture a guess. I'm leaning toward gnats too. A good rule of thumb is that if you can see gnats in your room, you've got an infestation. The problem isn't the gnats themselves, but their fucking larvae that can and will eat your roots and potentially leave root rot.

Top dress your pots with sand, and hit the plants with some pepper spray every day. Takes weeks to deal with this, but it is manageable. Spray is for the actual gnats, and the sand ensures that no larvae will escape and that no new eggs/larvae will enter.

I'm guessing you've grown with these lights and used CO2 in past grows, so if this were just the Mg def from extra photosynthesis you would have encountered it by now. I'm also guessing your water source has been consistent for the past few months. Please correct me if any of those guesses are incorrect.

Pretty sure its gnats though.

I did have a rash of fungus gnats early in veg - I put out sticky traps which filled up nicely lol I let the top soil dry for a few days, continued dry cycles between watering and more traps - I haven’t seen a gnat in the room in weeks. Is it possible I still have an infestation in the soil? My presumption would be I’d have to see at least some flying gnats given life cycles and such….
The strange thing about the brown spots is that when they first appeared, it almost seemed as though the white spot damage from thrips or a mite had turned into the brown spots after the citric acid foliar…via burn perhaps, it seems kind of silly but I don’t see the white spots anymore. Here’s a pic of the white spots prior to foliar, hopefully you can make them out - they don’t look exactly like spider mite dmg and they don’t look exactly like thrips, but I’ve never dealt with thrips

the thing is I never did get a positive ID in the thrips, hence needing the better scope - I saw what looked like round translucent mite eggs but they were smaller, I also saw slight signs of thrips trials and black excrement spotting under the leaves, but I never found a thrip on my sticky traps or under the leaves, drove me nuts. So I decided onthe citric acid foliar, undersides of leaves are now totally clean. I should also note that the brown spots are localized and haven’t shown on any new leaves.

New to CO2 and 2nd run on the lights. Have dealt with mag def but am familiar with that showing on the lowers first and then progressing upwards. My well water pH is 6.7 and about 200ppm, mostly calcium I presume (limestone aquefer), I’ve been watering with this the entire run. I’m hoping a bluelab soil probe can give me a bit of insight here. I did a soil slurry today and my cheap probe measured 6.55 with a cheap probe meter, but know that I can’t really trust that with too much confidence.

the other solid reason I’m leaning towards something about/in the soil or inputs being the culprit is that even the smallest nodes in the lower parts of the canopy are displaying the same leaf patterning. I have been considering a flush but would prefer to be a bit more confident I’ve IDd the issue correctly

 

[lakesidegrower]

Burn from the citric acid? Did you let it dissolve fully first?

Welp I thought I did..I’ve been known to do other obviously dumb things.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

I did have a rash of fungus gnats early in veg - I put out sticky traps which filled up nicely lol I let the top soil dry for a few days, continued dry cycles between watering and more traps - I haven’t seen a gnat in the room in weeks. Is it possible I still have an infestation in the soil? My presumption would be I’d have to see at least some flying gnats given life cycles and such….
The strange thing about the brown spots is that when they first appeared, it almost seemed as though the white spot damage from thrips or a mite had turned into the brown spots after the citric acid foliar…via burn perhaps, it seems kind of silly but I don’t see the white spots anymore. Here’s a pic of the white spots prior to foliar, hopefully you can make them out - they don’t look exactly like spider mite dmg and they don’t look exactly like thrips, but I’ve never dealt with thrips
View attachment 5017419
the thing is I never did get a positive ID in the thrips, hence needing the better scope - I saw what looked like round translucent mite eggs but they were smaller, I also saw slight signs of thrips trials and black excrement spotting under the leaves, but I never found a thrip on my sticky traps or under the leaves, drove me nuts. So I decided onthe citric acid foliar, undersides of leaves are now totally clean. I should also note that the brown spots are localized and haven’t shown on any new leaves.

New to CO2 and 2nd run on the lights. Have dealt with mag def but am familiar with that showing on the lowers first and then progressing upwards. My well water pH is 6.7 and about 200ppm, mostly calcium I presume (limestone aquefer), I’ve been watering with this the entire run. I’m hoping a bluelab soil probe can give me a bit of insight here. I did a soil slurry today and my cheap probe measured 6.55 with a cheap probe meter, but know that I can’t really trust that with too much confidence.

the other solid reason I’m leaning towards something about/in the soil or inputs being the culprit is that even the smallest nodes in the lower parts of the canopy are displaying the same leaf patterning. I have been considering a flush but would prefer to be a bit more confident I’ve IDd the issue correctly

It looks like the spots were there before the spray. I can definitely see thrip signs, and it looks like maybe spider mites too or something else.

I'm a rookie though compared to kratos.

 

[lakesidegrower]

It looks like the spots were there before the spray. I can definitely see thrip sighs, and it looks like maybe spider mites too or something else.

I'm a rookie though compared to kratos.

Unless it totally losing it, the spots did show up after the spray. I swears it!

 

[lakesidegrower]

Btw appreciate everyone’s input / all of it is insightful

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Unless it totally losing it, the spots did show up after the spray. I swears it!

You'd definitely know better than me. When I use Epsom or citric acid I dissolve it in some hot water first, then add cooler water to adjust the temp. Citric acid dissolves pretty well though, so the hot water probably isn't necessary. It's just my system, but I've only watered it in. I've never used citric acid as a foliar spray yet.

 

[lakesidegrower]

You'd definitely know better than me. When I use Epsom or citric acid I dissolve it in some hot water first, then add cooler water to adjust the temp. Citric acid dissolves pretty well though, so the hot water probably isn't necessary. It's just my system, but I've only watered it in. I've never used citric acid as a foliar spray yet.

I had dealt with spider mites last run, I decided on an isopropyl alcohol foliar at the time - it knocked them down and I was able to get them down to very few pops alternating between the iso, neem and insecticidal soap. Bombed the room with dr.doom after and no signs since, thank god.
I thought the citric acid foliar worked amazingly actually, one thorough application and not a sign of any pests on the plants.