Just wondering about ph and organics

[mschanandlerbong]

I been out the grow game for a while and I've forgotten more then I remember about organics. I've read teaming w microbes and nutrients[ im honestly not sure my brain absorbed anything from the second] and I've been a LONG time lurker on riu icmag grasscity ect but my questions kinda specific so here it goes.

My end goal is indoor beds of no till, but I had to do my first run and find my females so they're all in 2 gallon pots which I don't think is big enough to support a healthy microbe colony and my water is pretty fuckin hard, gonna get that r.o system hooked up soon but anyway should I be worrying about my ph? All my plants look good, they all lost their first set of leaves but everything else looks great no defiences except 1 plants leaves look smaller then they should be? Anyone think I should worry? I added a bit of dolomite yesterday just cause it kinda dawned on me im all organic but not true living organic.
Basicly I'm bugging with no real reason to. Usually by now everything's gone wrong and this time I have everything I need[ minus a ph meter =p] them smallish leaves really got me worrying tho, anyone think of a defiency that would make for smallish leaf growth? There's 4 diff strains so it might just be specific to the plant

 

[green_machine_two9er]

What’s your soil look like??
typically if you usequality inputs and buffering agents ph is a non issue, as you’ve read regulates itself with healthy micro herd.
Pics and info on soil, if your doing a seed run it’s more than normal to have different sizes and pheno variations show early on. Smaller plant coils for sure just be that

 

[go go kid]

i agree, ph in soil is wide ranged and soil is very forgiving ph wize if looked after properly

 

[Richard Drysift]

I’ve learned that if the plants are looking pale yet you have fertilized the soil then you need to give compost either in soluble or solid form. Teas go to work much faster than top dressing of course but delivering active microbes into the mix will take care of most issues provided there is ample npk to sustain the plants. Microbial activity keeps ph in range. Took a long time to realize this. You don’t really even need a ph probe unless you are mixing up a new batch of soil.

 

[OneMoreRip]

Just so to not make new thread on same topic I have a similar question, in the middle of looking for the answer. Maybe get some help here.

I am mixing up me medium tomorrow for organic grow. I have a few different components to add to the mix, all with different ph ranging from 4.0 to 7.5ish.

I can mix these together so that I can have any ph I want from 4.0 to 7.5.

my tap water is 7.0

what would be the ideal ph for me to make my medium?

 

[OneMoreRip]

Understanding Soil pH: A Beginner's Guide | BlueSky Organics

pH. Ugh. It’s one of those finicky things pool owners and chemistry students need to worry about. You probably know that pH levels are indicators of how acidic or basic a substance is but you may not know how it affects the growth and productivity of cannabis. Not to fear! Today we’re discussing ...

blueskyorganics.com

This is pretty much same for hydro.

Gonna make my medium 5.7 or 5.8 and with my tap at 7 I think it should be good. Will make a tester pot and see what the ph of the runoff is.

if this sounds bad please let me know. Thanks.

Understanding pH and How It Affects Cannabis Plants - RQS Blog

Struggling to wrap your head around pH? Click here for an in-depth overview of how pH affects your cannabis plants, whether grown in soil or hydro.

www.royalqueenseeds.com

Royal queen seeds says 6.0 - 7.0. Think I will make medium mix 6.2-6.3 and with 7.0 water that should be good.

if this sounds bad please let me know. Thanks.

 

[kratos015]

Baring extreme and niche circumstances, we typically do not have to concern ourselves with pH in a living soil. The only time we should be concerned about pH in a living soil is if our water is hard, that's pretty much it. I'll get into that further down in the post. tl;dr below.


The only thing one really needs to do concerning pH in a living soil is provide a buffer in the form of Dolomite Lime or Oyster Shell Flour.

Getting the pH of all your various nutrients, or the pH of the soil runoff, won't tell one anything conclusive. The pH is constantly fluctuating depending on what specific inputs are being decomposed at the time, what microbes are most dominant at the time (fungi = acidic, bacteria = neutral/slightly alkaline), and what the microbes themselves are eating and decomposing.

The dominant microbes in a living soil are always fluctuating too. One minute, the soil will be more fungal dominant and slightly acidic (5.5-6.5 pH) as a result. The next minute, it will be bacterial dominant, typically resulting in a perfectly neutral 7.0 pH and occasionally slightly alkaline at 7.5 pH. The dominant species of microbes will depend on a variety of factors, including soil moisture levels, types of organic inputs, amounts of organic inputs used, oxygen content, the amount of roots, the weather, etc.

Because of all of the above, the pH in a living soil is changing constantly, so testing one's pH will tend to be a waste of time.


The only pH we should be concerned with is that of our water, or if we're using native dirt that happens to have limestone in it or the like. If using tap water, one needs to be very familiar with the contents of the tap water source. If you're on city water, pretty much every city/town will have a municipal water report for you to review. This will tell us exactly what is in our water, and in how many PPMs.


Is all hard water bad? Not necessarily. There's a huge difference between hard city water, and hard well water.

Most city water is "hard" because of Calcium, Magnesium, and other various minerals within the water. Average PPM of city water is 200-450 PPM, the majority of which is minerals, and of course your chlorine/chloramine. City water isn't likely to fuck with one's pH despite all of this. Typically, the Calcium found in city water is not in carbonate form, and thus is not capable of negatively affecting your pH. The biggest issue that people have using tap water is the Calcium in it. Dolomite Lime is capable of providing all of a plant's Calcium needs all by itself.

However, for some reason, many pre-made soils and organic amendment blends like to throw calcitic ingredients in them such as gypsum, crustacean meals, and bone meals. This becomes problematic, as the Calcium from your buffering agent, combined with the Calcium from pre-made soils/amendment blends, then combines with the Calcium in your tap water. As a result of this, the plant starts absorbing Calcium from the water instead of everything else. This results in excess Calcium levels in your soil, which results in locking out Mg, then K, and even P if there is enough excess.

Simply omitting Calcium inputs will solve this problem, and allow you to successfully use your tap water. Be mindful of what is in your water source, this way we can omit ingredients from our soils that are already contained in our water.


Well water is a lot more tricky. Unless your well has an RO system like your municipal water district does, the minerals in your well water will be less regulated than that of your city water. I got to find out the hard way that my well water has limestone in it when I moved out here. 5+ years growing in SoCal using tap water, no issues. Did the same thing out here in the desert with my limed well water, started getting mad lockouts because the water was effecting my soil pH. Shit was 8.0 and above because my water is pretty much a buffering agent. I had to mix brand new soil, and omit dolomite lime entirely, then things went back to normal.

Not all well water is this bad, some well water is really incredible actually. Regardless, just like with city water, be mindful of what is in your water source so you can omit ingredients from your soil if need be.




tl;dr: Don't worry about pH in a living soil. Do worry about the pH of your water source, and if it is capable of fluctuating your soil's pH, or if the water source is filled with enough minerals in it to potentially cause excesses.


Regards.

I been out the grow game for a while and I've forgotten more then I remember about organics. I've read teaming w microbes and nutrients[ im honestly not sure my brain absorbed anything from the second] and I've been a LONG time lurker on riu icmag grasscity ect but my questions kinda specific so here it goes.

My end goal is indoor beds of no till, but I had to do my first run and find my females so they're all in 2 gallon pots which I don't think is big enough to support a healthy microbe colony and my water is pretty fuckin hard, gonna get that r.o system hooked up soon but anyway should I be worrying about my ph? All my plants look good, they all lost their first set of leaves but everything else looks great no defiences except 1 plants leaves look smaller then they should be? Anyone think I should worry? I added a bit of dolomite yesterday just cause it kinda dawned on me im all organic but not true living organic.
Basicly I'm bugging with no real reason to. Usually by now everything's gone wrong and this time I have everything I need[ minus a ph meter =p] them smallish leaves really got me worrying tho, anyone think of a defiency that would make for smallish leaf growth? There's 4 diff strains so it might just be specific to the plant

That's likely all your issue is, 4 different strains will react 4 different ways. It could just have smaller leaves because it's genetic. Or, perhaps the strain in question is a picky eater, or more prone to stress than the other strains.

A living soil can in fact be done in 2g pots, however they can just never be no-till and will need to be recycled after every harvest due to the smaller size. This is why there is such a surge in the usage of beds indoors, that large amount of soil is what makes it possible to cultivate a large soil web in a no-till environment for years.

Try not to stress too much on the little things and just have fun with it. I think we're all guilty of getting paranoid in our gardens from smoking too much weed lol. Said its been a while since you last grew, enjoy it friend! There's always the future, so keep looking ahead.

Regards.

 

[m4s73r]

The only other consideration when it comes to ph in your soil is when mulching. Decomposition will make your soil acidic over time. The more you mulch the more acidic it can get. If your tap water is coming out ph 7 that should be enough to counter that. Just spot check the ph of your water from time to time to make sure you dont have swings if you're on well water.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Baring extreme and niche circumstances, we typically do not have to concern ourselves with pH in a living soil. The only time we should be concerned about pH in a living soil is if our water is hard, that's pretty much it. I'll get into that further down in the post. tl;dr below.


The only thing one really needs to do concerning pH in a living soil is provide a buffer in the form of Dolomite Lime or Oyster Shell Flour.

Getting the pH of all your various nutrients, or the pH of the soil runoff, won't tell one anything conclusive. The pH is constantly fluctuating depending on what specific inputs are being decomposed at the time, what microbes are most dominant at the time (fungi = acidic, bacteria = neutral/slightly alkaline), and what the microbes themselves are eating and decomposing.

The dominant microbes in a living soil are always fluctuating too. One minute, the soil will be more fungal dominant and slightly acidic (5.5-6.5 pH) as a result. The next minute, it will be bacterial dominant, typically resulting in a perfectly neutral 7.0 pH and occasionally slightly alkaline at 7.5 pH. The dominant species of microbes will depend on a variety of factors, including soil moisture levels, types of organic inputs, amounts of organic inputs used, oxygen content, the amount of roots, the weather, etc.

Because of all of the above, the pH in a living soil is changing constantly, so testing one's pH will tend to be a waste of time.


The only pH we should be concerned with is that of our water, or if we're using native dirt that happens to have limestone in it or the like. If using tap water, one needs to be very familiar with the contents of the tap water source. If you're on city water, pretty much every city/town will have a municipal water report for you to review. This will tell us exactly what is in our water, and in how many PPMs.


Is all hard water bad? Not necessarily. There's a huge difference between hard city water, and hard well water.

Most city water is "hard" because of Calcium, Magnesium, and other various minerals within the water. Average PPM of city water is 200-450 PPM, the majority of which is minerals, and of course your chlorine/chloramine. City water isn't likely to fuck with one's pH despite all of this. Typically, the Calcium found in city water is not in carbonate form, and thus is not capable of negatively affecting your pH. The biggest issue that people have using tap water is the Calcium in it. Dolomite Lime is capable of providing all of a plant's Calcium needs all by itself.

However, for some reason, many pre-made soils and organic amendment blends like to throw calcitic ingredients in them such as gypsum, crustacean meals, and bone meals. This becomes problematic, as the Calcium from your buffering agent, combined with the Calcium from pre-made soils/amendment blends, then combines with the Calcium in your tap water. As a result of this, the plant starts absorbing Calcium from the water instead of everything else. This results in excess Calcium levels in your soil, which results in locking out Mg, then K, and even P if there is enough excess.

Simply omitting Calcium inputs will solve this problem, and allow you to successfully use your tap water. Be mindful of what is in your water source, this way we can omit ingredients from our soils that are already contained in our water.


Well water is a lot more tricky. Unless your well has an RO system like your municipal water district does, the minerals in your well water will be less regulated than that of your city water. I got to find out the hard way that my well water has limestone in it when I moved out here. 5+ years growing in SoCal using tap water, no issues. Did the same thing out here in the desert with my limed well water, started getting mad lockouts because the water was effecting my soil pH. Shit was 8.0 and above because my water is pretty much a buffering agent. I had to mix brand new soil, and omit dolomite lime entirely, then things went back to normal.

Not all well water is this bad, some well water is really incredible actually. Regardless, just like with city water, be mindful of what is in your water source so you can omit ingredients from your soil if need be.




tl;dr: Don't worry about pH in a living soil. Do worry about the pH of your water source, and if it is capable of fluctuating your soil's pH, or if the water source is filled with enough minerals in it to potentially cause excesses.


Regards.





That's likely all your issue is, 4 different strains will react 4 different ways. It could just have smaller leaves because it's genetic. Or, perhaps the strain in question is a picky eater, or more prone to stress than the other strains.

A living soil can in fact be done in 2g pots, however they can just never be no-till and will need to be recycled after every harvest due to the smaller size. This is why there is such a surge in the usage of beds indoors, that large amount of soil is what makes it possible to cultivate a large soil web in a no-till environment for years.

Try not to stress too much on the little things and just have fun with it. I think we're all guilty of getting paranoid in our gardens from smoking too much weed lol. Said its been a while since you last grew, enjoy it friend! There's always the future, so keep looking ahead.

Regards.

@kratos015 SoCal desert (Coachella Valley) water is 8.2 pH tap and about 300ppm. That ok to use in live soil? I carbon filter the water in 5 gallon buckets. I'm tempted to get an RO filter just to be safe. That or use bottled water.

 

[kratos015]

@kratos015 SoCal desert (Coachella Valley) water is 8.2 pH tap and about 300ppm. That ok to use in live soil? I carbon filter the water in 5 gallon buckets. I'm tempted to get an RO filter just to be safe. That or use bottled water.

Depends on if you're using well water or city water. High PPMs in water aren't always problematic, one can usually adjust their soil recipe/inputs to compensate for high mineral content in their water source.

Its only if those high PPMs come from Calcium Carbonate specifically, because this will in fact mess with your soil. Using water with Calcium Carbonate in it is essentially the same as dissolving Dolomite Lime into your water before using it. Over time, your soil pH will get alkaline as a result of this water and you'll have a bad time. Trust me lol.



I just looked at your city water, here's the link for your review. Looks like our water is pretty similar to each other's.

What we want to look for is "Hardness (as CaCO3), mg/L", as this tells us whether the Calcium in the water is in Carbonate form or not. If one's water report shows Calcium, but nothing about "hardness as CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate)", then your water isn't likely to buffer pH. You can always call your water district and ask if in doubt.

Check the footnotes on the side to find out what specific region of your city is what ID No. Range on the report I linked.

"(2) Cove Communities includes the communities of Rancho Mirage, Thousand Palms, Palm
Desert, Indian Wells, La Quinta, Mecca, Bombay Beach, North Shore, Hot Mineral Spa; and
portions of Bermuda Dunes, Cathedral City, Indio, Oasis, Riverside County, Thermal, and
Valerie Jean.
(3) ID No. 8 includes the communities of Indio Hills, Sky Valley; and select areas within and
adjacent to Desert Hot Springs.
(4) ID No. 11 includes the communities of Desert Shores, Salton Sea Beach and Salton City."


Regardless of your region, it does in fact appear that your water has Calcium Carbonate in it, based on the report at least. Now all that's left to do is confirm it by pH test. You've already tested it at 8.2, however have you checked to see if the water buffers or not?

Make another pH sample, wait for the water to turn dark green for 8.0+ pH. Then, dump enough vinegar or lemon juice into the solution until it is a 4.0 or lower pH. Wait 24-48 hours, and observe the solution over time. If the water goes back to 8.0, that means your water is a buffer.

Not sure how much help your carbon filter is with the carbonate, but it must be working well if you've not had any problems using this filtered water in the past.

If your water is in fact capable of buffering your pH, you do have options on how to deal with it, or you can work with it.

1) Your carbon filter may be working, only a pH test would confirm if the filter removes enough carbonate from the water to remove it's buffering capabilities. If this is doing the job, and isn't too much of a pain/you're only growing a few plants, this can work. Sounds like it has already.

2) RO, as you've mentioned. Pricey, and pretty wasteful, but it does work. A little too well, in fact, you may have to add certain amendments to compensate for the good minerals being stripped by the RO.

3) Bottled water/water machines. Will definitely work, but same as #2, be sure to compensate for the minerals stripped from the water, and by proxy your soil.

I've found the best solution is to work with it, and use it to our advantage. If our water is a buffer, then all we need to do is remove Oyster Shell Flour/Dolomite Lime from our soil mixes and we can use the water just fine! The water does the job of the Lime, buffering the pH for you.

Test this and see it for yourself.

Do the same pH test as above, but soak your tap water in pure peat moss (nothing else) for an hour or so, then pH the peat moss water. Peat moss has a very acidic pH, 3.5-4.0, if you test it with distilled water. However, since you soaked the peat moss in your water, the pH of the solution should be a perfect 6.0-7.0 range and never deviate.

My solution was to just stop liming my peat moss, opting instead to let my water lime the soil for me. I also made sure to remove gypsum, crab meal, and other Ca inputs from the soil. Saw improvements immediately.

And a bit of a tip for if you decide to venture outdoors with your grow. Do not use pots, plant in the ground, and you'll never see this issue.

Your native dirt should be like mine, sandy and clay. Amazing drainage. So amazing, that daily watering will ensure your Carbonate water will never effect your roots because it will always get pushed down into the Earth with each watering. Using pots is where this type of water is super problematic because the Calcium Carbonate can't be pushed out of the pots with watering like it can in the ground.

Hope the above was useful to you. All the best.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Depends on if you're using well water or city water. High PPMs in water aren't always problematic, one can usually adjust their soil recipe/inputs to compensate for high mineral content in their water source.

Its only if those high PPMs come from Calcium Carbonate specifically, because this will in fact mess with your soil. Using water with Calcium Carbonate in it is essentially the same as dissolving Dolomite Lime into your water before using it. Over time, your soil pH will get alkaline as a result of this water and you'll have a bad time. Trust me lol.



I just looked at your city water, here's the link for your review. Looks like our water is pretty similar to each other's.

What we want to look for is "Hardness (as CaCO3), mg/L", as this tells us whether the Calcium in the water is in Carbonate form or not. If one's water report shows Calcium, but nothing about "hardness as CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate)", then your water isn't likely to buffer pH. You can always call your water district and ask if in doubt.

Check the footnotes on the side to find out what specific region of your city is what ID No. Range on the report I linked.

"(2) Cove Communities includes the communities of Rancho Mirage, Thousand Palms, Palm
Desert, Indian Wells, La Quinta, Mecca, Bombay Beach, North Shore, Hot Mineral Spa; and
portions of Bermuda Dunes, Cathedral City, Indio, Oasis, Riverside County, Thermal, and
Valerie Jean.
(3) ID No. 8 includes the communities of Indio Hills, Sky Valley; and select areas within and
adjacent to Desert Hot Springs.
(4) ID No. 11 includes the communities of Desert Shores, Salton Sea Beach and Salton City."


Regardless of your region, it does in fact appear that your water has Calcium Carbonate in it, based on the report at least. Now all that's left to do is confirm it by pH test. You've already tested it at 8.2, however have you checked to see if the water buffers or not?

Make another pH sample, wait for the water to turn dark green for 8.0+ pH. Then, dump enough vinegar or lemon juice into the solution until it is a 4.0 or lower pH. Wait 24-48 hours, and observe the solution over time. If the water goes back to 8.0, that means your water is a buffer.

Not sure how much help your carbon filter is with the carbonate, but it must be working well if you've not had any problems using this filtered water in the past.

If your water is in fact capable of buffering your pH, you do have options on how to deal with it, or you can work with it.

1) Your carbon filter may be working, only a pH test would confirm if the filter removes enough carbonate from the water to remove it's buffering capabilities. If this is doing the job, and isn't too much of a pain/you're only growing a few plants, this can work. Sounds like it has already.

2) RO, as you've mentioned. Pricey, and pretty wasteful, but it does work. A little too well, in fact, you may have to add certain amendments to compensate for the good minerals being stripped by the RO.

3) Bottled water/water machines. Will definitely work, but same as #2, be sure to compensate for the minerals stripped from the water, and by proxy your soil.

I've found the best solution is to work with it, and use it to our advantage. If our water is a buffer, then all we need to do is remove Oyster Shell Flour/Dolomite Lime from our soil mixes and we can use the water just fine! The water does the job of the Lime, buffering the pH for you.

Test this and see it for yourself.

Do the same pH test as above, but soak your tap water in pure peat moss (nothing else) for an hour or so, then pH the peat moss water. Peat moss has a very acidic pH, 3.5-4.0, if you test it with distilled water. However, since you soaked the peat moss in your water, the pH of the solution should be a perfect 6.0-7.0 range and never deviate.

My solution was to just stop liming my peat moss, opting instead to let my water lime the soil for me. I also made sure to remove gypsum, crab meal, and other Ca inputs from the soil. Saw improvements immediately.

And a bit of a tip for if you decide to venture outdoors with your grow. Do not use pots, plant in the ground, and you'll never see this issue.

Your native dirt should be like mine, sandy and clay. Amazing drainage. So amazing, that daily watering will ensure your Carbonate water will never effect your roots because it will always get pushed down into the Earth with each watering. Using pots is where this type of water is super problematic because the Calcium Carbonate can't be pushed out of the pots with watering like it can in the ground.

Hope the above was useful to you. All the best.

Mind blown ... wow. . I stopped watching the Laker game to take this all in. Honestly I've had some problems and could never put my finger on it. For sure I had it on the pH adjust I've been using. But now I'll have to test my tap water for this calcium carbonate buffering. I totally understand how buffering works. Huge thanks. I copied and pasted your post to my notes. Quick question here, and I think I know the answer to it already, You've mentioned it , but I' gonna ask anyway, Earth Dust.. I just bought some to try this out, as an amendment to my first Organic grow. Now that it seems like my water has/might some calcium carbonate... bad idea? Earth Dust comes with lime in it already (Organic Limestone). At least in the Boost formula, none in the Base formula.

 

[m4s73r]

And water treatment plants dont want to soften water as its expensive. I run my water through a rv filter. I noticed a big change in the build up in my drippers. I wonder how this will effect my beds over time. I mean I water right from the tap and have for years. My water is between Hard and Very Hard. CaCO3 is around 219 ppm. Ph right at 7. Never used peat to see if its buffering or not. Im gong to check that out.

 

[kratos015]

Mind blown ... wow. . I stopped watching the Laker game to take this all in. Honestly I've had some problems and could never put my finger on it. For sure I had it on the pH adjust I've been using. But now I'll have to test my tap water for this calcium carbonate buffering. I totally understand how buffering works. Huge thanks. I copied and pasted your post to my notes. Quick question here, and I think I know the answer to it already, You've mentioned it , but I' gonna ask anyway, Earth Dust.. I just bought some to try this out, as an amendment to my first Organic grow. Now that it seems like my water has/might some calcium carbonate... bad idea? Earth Dust comes with lime in it already (Organic Limestone). At least in the Boost formula, none in the Base formula.

Yeah man, this fucked with me for a little over a year. Took me 3 harvests until I finally realized this was the issue. Thought it was overwatering, then gnats, then deficiencies, the N toxicity is when I really started pulling my hair out wondering what the fuck. I'll describe how it affected me, if it sounds similar to you then your water might be the issue.

My symptoms were gradual, in fact, first grow using my water and new soil went pretty well. The grow after that, however, was when the issues started showing up. New clones started getting stunted, with deformed and twisted new growth. Eventually, Ca and Mg issues showed up. Next was K, and the P, and finally excess N.

Nothing fixed it. Wasn't gnats or bugs, wasn't over-watering, and attempts to correct deficiencies proved useless. I tested runoff for the first time in years, runoff always came at around 8.5 or so. I actually tried to pH water in an attempt to correct the issue, but nothing.

One day, I was getting more pH water ready and upon looking at the pots, I finally noticed the white spots all over the pots, pictured below.







It finally hit me that the white spots on the pots is the same scaling that I get on my faucets and the like. Finally, this caused me to pH test my water itself. I added lemon juice to pH it down to 4.0, within 24 hours the solution was buffered back to 8.5 once more. Finally figured out the problem, my water was, and is, a buffer.

Be sure to test it for yourself, to confirm if this is your issue or not. However, if my experience above sounds familiar, you likely have the issue I did with my water.


Unfortunately, if that Earth Dust has Lime in it, you likely won't want to use the stuff. Using your type of water with any sort of liming/buffering agent will ensure your pH is always 8.0 or above.

Try the experiment with peat moss, and see what your results are. You should be able to just mix your own soil made with peat moss, just don't lime the peat, and use your water to keep things buffered, Then you'll be golden!

And water treatment plants dont want to soften water as its expensive. I run my water through a rv filter. I noticed a big change in the build up in my drippers. I wonder how this will effect my beds over time. I mean I water right from the tap and have for years. My water is between Hard and Very Hard. CaCO3 is around 219 ppm. Ph right at 7. Never used peat to see if its buffering or not. Im gong to check that out.

I have a Calcium inhibitor for my spigots outside, seems to help me a little. My water is between 400-450 PPMs, the Calcium inhibitor barely brings it down to the low 300s lol.


This issue really manifests itself on 5g pots or smaller, likely to notice it within 1 grow. Took a few months until I noticed it on my 25-30g pots.

But you grow in a large bed, which should definitely work in your favor here. Not to mention your filter. 200-300 PPM is much easier to deal with than 400+. I've known people with around your PPMs and have never experienced issues, oddly enough.

Being in a bed as large as yours is a huge boon. Your PPM is half of mine, so half the residue/build up. What's more, the sheer mass of soil in your bed should allow water to flow more freely, as well as disperse itself more evenly when compared to a pot. In large masses of soil, it is difficult for the carbonate to build up enough to negatively affect soil pH.

This shit was almost the death of me. Was a total pain in the ass to figure this out, made it damn near impossible to grow anything. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

 

[Week4@inCharge]

Yeah man, this fucked with me for a little over a year. Took me 3 harvests until I finally realized this was the issue. Thought it was overwatering, then gnats, then deficiencies, the N toxicity is when I really started pulling my hair out wondering what the fuck. I'll describe how it affected me, if it sounds similar to you then your water might be the issue.

My symptoms were gradual, in fact, first grow using my water and new soil went pretty well. The grow after that, however, was when the issues started showing up. New clones started getting stunted, with deformed and twisted new growth. Eventually, Ca and Mg issues showed up. Next was K, and the P, and finally excess N.

Nothing fixed it. Wasn't gnats or bugs, wasn't over-watering, and attempts to correct deficiencies proved useless. I tested runoff for the first time in years, runoff always came at around 8.5 or so. I actually tried to pH water in an attempt to correct the issue, but nothing.

One day, I was getting more pH water ready and upon looking at the pots, I finally noticed the white spots all over the pots, pictured below.

View attachment 5019607
View attachment 5019608
View attachment 5019609



It finally hit me that the white spots on the pots is the same scaling that I get on my faucets and the like. Finally, this caused me to pH test my water itself. I added lemon juice to pH it down to 4.0, within 24 hours the solution was buffered back to 8.5 once more. Finally figured out the problem, my water was, and is, a buffer.

Be sure to test it for yourself, to confirm if this is your issue or not. However, if my experience above sounds familiar, you likely have the issue I did with my water.


Unfortunately, if that Earth Dust has Lime in it, you likely won't want to use the stuff. Using your type of water with any sort of liming/buffering agent will ensure your pH is always 8.0 or above.

Try the experiment with peat moss, and see what your results are. You should be able to just mix your own soil made with peat moss, just don't lime the peat, and use your water to keep things buffered, Then you'll be golden!




I have a Calcium inhibitor for my spigots outside, seems to help me a little. My water is between 400-450 PPMs, the Calcium inhibitor barely brings it down to the low 300s lol.


This issue really manifests itself on 5g pots or smaller, likely to notice it within 1 grow. Took a few months until I noticed it on my 25-30g pots.

But you grow in a large bed, which should definitely work in your favor here. Not to mention your filter. 200-300 PPM is much easier to deal with than 400+. I've known people with around your PPMs and have never experienced issues, oddly enough.

Being in a bed as large as yours is a huge boon. Your PPM is half of mine, so half the residue/build up. What's more, the sheer mass of soil in your bed should allow water to flow more freely, as well as disperse itself more evenly when compared to a pot. In large masses of soil, it is difficult for the carbonate to build up enough to negatively affect soil pH.

This shit was almost the death of me. Was a total pain in the ass to figure this out, made it damn near impossible to grow anything. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

@kratos015 Bingo ... I'm now 100% convinced it's the Calcium Carbonate. For me it was a very slow burning of the leaves. Half of my ladies flowers remained unfazed, the other half, well, they look like survivors of the Chernobyl disaster to say the least, all with burned leaves. Well, You sir deserve a GOLD STAR. Huge thanks for the insight and help with this. I'm following your thread (in your signature) and will study it next coming weeks.

 

[m4s73r]

I have a Calcium inhibitor for my spigots outside, seems to help me a little. My water is between 400-450 PPMs, the Calcium inhibitor barely brings it down to the low 300s lol.


This issue really manifests itself on 5g pots or smaller, likely to notice it within 1 grow. Took a few months until I noticed it on my 25-30g pots.

But you grow in a large bed, which should definitely work in your favor here. Not to mention your filter. 200-300 PPM is much easier to deal with than 400+. I've known people with around your PPMs and have never experienced issues, oddly enough.

Being in a bed as large as yours is a huge boon. Your PPM is half of mine, so half the residue/build up. What's more, the sheer mass of soil in your bed should allow water to flow more freely, as well as disperse itself more evenly when compared to a pot. In large masses of soil, it is difficult for the carbonate to build up enough to negatively affect soil pH.

This shit was almost the death of me. Was a total pain in the ass to figure this out, made it damn near impossible to grow anything. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Ahh this is why I've never seen a issue. My PPM level is lower and with the filters im prolly dropping it down around 170. Man you had me freaking out last night. Next think I know, I'm 6 reports deep with the water company. Having done the buffer test I also learned that I dont have enough in there to be a buffer. I wonder if there is a certian point of PPM that this occurs.

You said your ppm is dropping it down to low 300s, at that level is still acting as a buffer for you? If not, then we may be able to calculate at what point the PPM begins buffering the water.

 

[kratos015]

Ahh this is why I've never seen a issue. My PPM level is lower and with the filters im prolly dropping it down around 170. Man you had me freaking out last night. Next think I know, I'm 6 reports deep with the water company. Having done the buffer test I also learned that I dont have enough in there to be a buffer. I wonder if there is a certian point of PPM that this occurs.

You said your ppm is dropping it down to low 300s, at that level is still acting as a buffer for you? If not, then we may be able to calculate at what point the PPM begins buffering the water.

Yeah, strangest thing. Even with the Ca filter, it has no effect on the pH or ability to buffer whatsoever. Still buffers whether or not I use the filter. I'm fine with it buffering, haven't had to buy or worry about lime for a couple years now.

I'm sure someone has done a study about it somewhere, sounds interesting to look into. I'd speculate the point the PPMs begin to buffer would be the 250-300 range, but that's just speculation from various people's water reports I've read and come across throughout the years. People below 250 ppm don't seem to have issues from what I've seen, its usually 300 or above.

@kratos015 Bingo ... I'm now 100% convinced it's the Calcium Carbonate. For me it was a very slow burning of the leaves. Half of my ladies flowers remained unfazed, the other half, well, they look like survivors of the Chernobyl disaster to say the least, all with burned leaves. Well, You sir deserve a GOLD STAR. Huge thanks for the insight and help with this. I'm following your thread (in your signature) and will study it next coming weeks.
View attachment 5019629

Happy to be of service. I ran into this issue after 6 years of growing, when I moved out of California into my new place out of state. Same methods, but started having those issues because of how hard my well water was. It was one of the most frustrating and discouraging experiences I've had, so I'm glad to be able to save others the heartache.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Yeah, strangest thing. Even with the Ca filter, it has no effect on the pH or ability to buffer whatsoever. Still buffers whether or not I use the filter. I'm fine with it buffering, haven't had to buy or worry about lime for a couple years now.

I'm sure someone has done a study about it somewhere, sounds interesting to look into. I'd speculate the point the PPMs begin to buffer would be the 250-300 range, but that's just speculation from various people's water reports I've read and come across throughout the years. People below 250 ppm don't seem to have issues from what I've seen, its usually 300 or above.




Happy to be of service. I ran into this issue after 6 years of growing, when I moved out of California into my new place out of state. Same methods, but started having those issues because of how hard my well water was. It was one of the most frustrating and discouraging experiences I've had, so I'm glad to be able to save others the heartache.

My well water is only around 150 ppm, and I have to be careful what I add too. I think is mostly Ca, because I've had similar issues as you. The Ca would constantly try to buffer my hot tub water up, but adding muriatic acid tamed it pretty well. I get Ca deposits in pots too and faucets after awhile. I've cut out a lot of stuff thanks to your advice and it's helping for sure.

 

[kratos015]

My well water is only around 150 ppm, and I have to be careful what I add too. I think is mostly Ca, because I've had similar issues as you. The Ca would constantly try to buffer my hot tub water up, but adding muriatic acid tamed it pretty well. I get Ca deposits in pots too and faucets after awhile. I've cut out a lot of stuff thanks to your advice and it's helping for sure.

Very interesting, so then the PPM is irrelevant, since issues are possible regardless of PPM.

I'm just now realizing, that since it's measured in PPMs, the carbonate will still have effects but in direct relation to the amount of PPMs.

Lets say 200ppm and 400ppm, literally double the CaCO3 right? Someone with 400ppm of CaCO2 will see issues in say, for sake of example 1 month. But, someone with 200ppm wouldn't see issues for, lets say 2 months. Half the PPMs, so more time needed for salt build up.

The carbonate becomes problematic when enough of it starts to pool together, and them clump up into salts. The higher the PPM, the higher the likelihood of carbonate salt build up. The lower the PPM, the less likely. Still possible in both cases, but the lower PPM makes excesses a little more difficult. While the carbonate is water insoluble, it is in powdered form if I'm not mistaken? Hardly visible. If allowed to flow and run-off properly, the build up is not likely to happen.

Where I believe the problem starts is allowing the pots to dry too much, even just once. If one has allowed that much water to evaporate, the only thing left is the Carbonate salts. Same way scaling builds up when water evaporates, same thing can happen in the soil. Proper and consistent watering tends to neutralize this as an issue.

SIP are also able to mitigate a lot of the negatives, because the water has it's own reservoir, and even if salts build up it will not get into your soil.



Not sure why it took so long for me to realize; like anything else, its not so much about what it is, but the amount. So long as the Carbonate never pools up enough to create full blown salts, there is likely to be no issue.

Reducing Calcium inputs from soils would also help with preventing salt build up. If the only source of Ca in your soil is the CaCO3 from your water, and nothing else, the plant will certainly make use of it. Salts won't build up if the plant and soil are actually making use of them.

So, it would seem it isn't about the PPMs, but if something is resulting in it becoming a salt build up.

 

[PadawanWarrior]

Very interesting, so then the PPM is irrelevant, since issues are possible regardless of PPM.

I'm just now realizing, that since it's measured in PPMs, the carbonate will still have effects but in direct relation to the amount of PPMs.

Lets say 200ppm and 400ppm, literally double the CaCO3 right? Someone with 400ppm of CaCO2 will see issues in say, for sake of example 1 month. But, someone with 200ppm wouldn't see issues for, lets say 2 months. Half the PPMs, so more time needed for salt build up.

The carbonate becomes problematic when enough of it starts to pool together, and them clump up into salts. The higher the PPM, the higher the likelihood of carbonate salt build up. The lower the PPM, the less likely. Still possible in both cases, but the lower PPM makes excesses a little more difficult. While the carbonate is water insoluble, it is in powdered form if I'm not mistaken? Hardly visible. If allowed to flow and run-off properly, the build up is not likely to happen.

Where I believe the problem starts is allowing the pots to dry too much, even just once. If one has allowed that much water to evaporate, the only thing left is the Carbonate salts. Same way scaling builds up when water evaporates, same thing can happen in the soil. Proper and consistent watering tends to neutralize this as an issue.

SIP are also able to mitigate a lot of the negatives, because the water has it's own reservoir, and even if salts build up it will not get into your soil.



Not sure why it took so long for me to realize; like anything else, its not so much about what it is, but the amount. So long as the Carbonate never pools up enough to create full blown salts, there is likely to be no issue.

Reducing Calcium inputs from soils would also help with preventing salt build up. If the only source of Ca in your soil is the CaCO3 from your water, and nothing else, the plant will certainly make use of it. Salts won't build up if the plant and soil are actually making use of them.

So, it would seem it isn't about the PPMs, but if something is resulting in it becoming a salt build up.

I try to keep my pots moist, but I'll still get it in the bottom after awhile. It gets worse on the pots that sit there between rounds.

I use citric acid occasionally and water until I get a little runoff when it looks bad, or when I plant something in an older pot. The acid helps take care of the calcium precipitation and makes it easier to flush some out.

 

[m4s73r]

I was reading an article on how calcium carbonate effects sandy soil in new mexico from a textural point of view. One of the things that jumped out at me was when they were adding clay. Clay acts like a ionizer for the caco3. It could be that the easiest fix for your soil when dealing with higher amounts is to add a scoop or 2 of clay.

Newest organic amendment for high caco3 ppm... cat litter. LOL