Does freewill exist?

[Just Be]

If you don't have a free will, how can you be held accountable for your actions?

Don't open an account.

All language needs to have a definition.

Looking from the "absolute", nothing really exists, neither free will nor anything else. But our discussions happen in the relative, and within the constraints of language, so we need to settle on some definitions or there will not even be a discussion.

It's interesting to note that when the the word 'define' is dissected we have the prefix 'de' which implies "to remove from or make the opposite of" combined with the Latin root word 'fin' which implies "a boundary, end or limit". Taking that into consideration, words and their definitions are constantly evolving. I'm currently of the opinion that our perceptions should be constantly evolving as well. Anyway, that's all I have to say about 'free will'.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

If you don't have a free will, how can you be held accountable for your actions?

If a bunch of termites sap a building, are you holding them "accountable"?

Why apply different rules to humans?

You are accountable for everything you do, but so is your dog. Nobody has a say in what they do, or don't. Accountability is a construct that we apply from the outside, it's not inherent to the actions of individuals (neither is morality).

 

[Nixs]

If a bunch of termites sap a building, are you holding them "accountable"?

Why apply different rules to humans?

Termites don't have the free will to not do their thing, unlike humans who have the free will to do work or not.
Take the sun for example, it cannot quit or get tardy, it does not have the choice to do that.

Excuse my level of the English language, its not my native tongue.

 

[Don't Bogart]

I've heard this argument before: "reason implies free will". It's nonsense.
[/QUOTE

Computers are able to reason, but nobody would suppose free will in that case. Of course "computer reasoning" is within certain bounds, but so is "human reasoning".

Computers are NOT able to reason. Computational calculations. Are you implying your head is full of nand gates, nor gates, and gates, or gates.
Your thinking wouldn't be wanted by Bill Gates.

 

[thecosmicgoat]

God's will or self-will, no free will.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

Termites don't have the free will to not do their thing, unlike humans who have the free will to do work or not.

Neither humans nor termites have free will; that is the point here. The example was about "accountability", not free will.

Computers are NOT able to reason. Computational calculations. Are you implying your head is full of nand gates, nor gates, and gates, or gates.

Please point out the difference between "computational reasoning" and "human reasoning". Consciousness is not a prerequisite for reasoning.

Of course we are not yet at Strong AI (or General AI), but computers are already quite good at reasoning about a lot of thinks, in many cases far better than humans.

How is your "reasoning" about anything different from a complex calculation?

(Mind you I'm not suggesting that arbitrarily complex calculations are a perfect substitute for human reasoning.)

 

[Don't Bogart]

Please point out the difference between "computational reasoning" and "human reasoning". Consciousness is not a prerequisite for reasoning.

cogito, ergo sum.

 

[Rob Roy]

God's will or self-will, no free will.

If actions exist because they are god's will, wouldn't that make god a sinner if he allows a person to commit a sin ?

 

[thecosmicgoat]

If actions exist because they are god's will, wouldn't that make god a sinner if he allows a person to commit a sin ?

If God as you understand him, has sinners in its universe, than maybe it could apply to him too?
I don't believe in sins myself, and God as I understand him doesn't have sinners.
What is a sin? A poor choice, a selfish choice in actions, or decisions?

 

[Nixs]

A sin as I understand it is breaking God's word (commands) with an intention or "own free well".

 

[VincenzioVonHook]

If everybody were to refuse to give me a dog, I could not choose to get one or not. If I had no way to, then that would be that.

Extension of victim complex. It's a way to take the responsibility off one's self.

Everyone I know with a victim complex this that exact way.

 

[Rob Roy]

If God as you understand him, has sinners in its universe, than maybe it could apply to him too?
I don't believe in sins myself, and God as I understand him doesn't have sinners.
What is a sin? A poor choice, a selfish choice in actions, or decisions?

I don't "understand" god in the sense that I agree with all of the things people have written and attribute to god or their favorite religion / god.

I do understand that it is in my power to direct my own actions, not in every circumstance, but in many. I think of that as my free will, restrained somewhat by my own limited physical and mental capacities. Meaning I can only do what I can do, can't do what I can't do. I might will myself to fly, but it's never happened and unless I grow wings, it won't etc. Albeit. sometimes external circumstances can negate our free will, but it's not a permanent state of being, meaning circumstances change and don't all occur in the same way for every person. Unless...a meteor. Okay, I'm digressing.

As far as god goes, I was raised as a Christian, but quickly learned to disappear sunday mornings as a kid to avoid going to sunday school etc. . Even as a kid I questioned how people blindly believed and obeyed things they were told without considering alternatives or the unintended consequences and contradictions of their religious beliefs.

Got alot of respect for that Jesus dude though, kind, intelligent, on a mission to help people, balls of steel when faced with a horrible punishment he didn't deserve. I don't think of him as god though, but certainly a fine example of a human being.

God, in the traditional Christian sense, is a contradiction and is likely a sinner, since he tells mankind he loves them, but if they don't love him back, he's gonna smite them. Kind of dickish behavior. So, yes, "god" (the guy from the bible) as I understand him would be a sinner.

I think it's possible human beings are a created hybrid species and our "god" was an explanation of the actions of other beings with more advanced technology who came to earth and fucked our women, thus creating mankind. We are escaped lab rats in that sense, with free will up to the limits of our individual capacities.

 

[Rob Roy]

If a bunch of termites sap a building, are you holding them "accountable"?

Why apply different rules to humans?

You are accountable for everything you do, but so is your dog. Nobody has a say in what they do, or don't. Accountability is a construct that we apply from the outside, it's not inherent to the actions of individuals (neither is morality).

It's reasonable to hold beings accountable with respect to their mental and physical capacities. Humans and termites, you may have noticed have different capacities.

I don't shit on the living room carpet. My dog usually doesn't shit on the living room carpet, trained not to. If I'm someplace and my truck breaks down, don't get home to the next day, despite his training the dog may leave a present.

Can't blame the dog, he has no opposable thumb and even though he knows he wants to go outside, he can't manage opening the door. How could I hold poor Rex accountable in that case? If I left my house in the care of a human guest, and he shit on the living room rug, rather than using the bathroom or at least a bush out back, I think it would be fair to hold him accountable. My guest does have the capacity NOT to shit on the carpet and doesn't need me to come home and open the door for him.

 

[OG-KGP]

No there is no such thing as freewill, the energy that makes up your body and even your mind will behave and act on the laws of physics, how could awareness possibly affect the material universe. That being said it would make sense that you were given freewill during your conception in the womb as your brain was being developed, if there actually was free will.

The idea that we created are destiny before birth is interesting and one that I've contemplated before, perhaps we are God manifesting the universe at every moment, the effortless creators of the cosmos.

I'm big on the laws of the universe. I read all Bob Proctors books and many other about the laws of attraction but I beg to differ.

The creation of life is a choice made by the two parents (well sometimes not a choice but you get it) Being conceivd is the biggest miracle we will ever witness. A random egg on a cycle that gets fertilized by one of millions of small cells. Its like we all won the lottery just being here.

Many things were done for us by the choice of our parents at a young age but as we grow, we learn. Right from wrong. I'm a firm believer that like attracts like and what we think, we become.

I have done many terrible things in my past. I lived a terrible life for quite a while. I learned that if I focus on good, good will come. If I choose to help others, blessings will be done or reciprocated. And If I choose to vibrate on a different frequency, by mostly being good, positive thoughts, and acts of kindness, it will all come back.

These are my choices, I choose to do better. I choose to study this. I choose to turn my life around. I don't believe this was all predestined.

 

[Rob Roy]

For everyone, it is predetermined individually how they will react to stimuli.

Choices are made, all the time, but they aren't free choices.

Any choosing (action) comes only after a choosing thought. Do you have any control over your thoughts?

Think of something, say, a Cannabis strain. What came to mind? Why? Did you have control?

We have zero control over anything. There is only the illusion that we do. And it always comes after the fact. You say: "I COULD have done otherwise," when in fact you could not.

Except thoughts are not actions. You could think of something, or it could pop into your head to do something, maybe you didn't will those thoughts, but you DID decide not to do or do the action that corresponds to the thought you had.

"Gee, I'd like to make him shut his mouth" (a person's thought, perhaps occurring spontaneously)

"I will avoid going to thanksgiving gathering so I don't have to hear my know it all bigfoot wanna be brother-in-law pontificate on philosophy.
(a persons decided course of action / inaction suggesting free will is present)


As an aside, I'm always thinking of a cannabis strain.

 

[Nixs]

Can't blame the dog,

This is for Rex

 

[Don't Bogart]

I think G*d's going to need to move to a different universe. We got this one figured out.

 

[ComputerSaysNo]

It's reasonable to hold beings accountable with respect to their mental and physical capacities. Humans and termites, you may have noticed have different capacities.

Yes, it is, but then it is down to a definition of "accountability".

In a sense, I am accountable for everything I cause. Unfortunately I cause infinitely many things that will happen in the future, and I can predict practically nothing of it. Am I accountable for all of that? Or is it just the things that I could have foreseen to any degree?

What if I run over a cute little child, who then dies, but to no one's knowing the child was a psychopath in the making and would have harmed a lot of people had it lived? Now am I accountable for saving the world from a psychopath?

As I said above, "accountability" is a story that we need to make up after actions were taken and the degree of accountability is almost arbitrarily random. It's a human category that is not inherent to the actions themselves.

Except thoughts are not actions. You could think of something, or it could pop into your head to do something, maybe you didn't will those thoughts

Not every thought results in something that you might call an "action". Not all thoughts are "choosing thoughts".

Also, not every "action" is preceded by a choosing, conscious thought either. If I throw a tennis ball at you out of the blue, you might catch it (or not), but in any case it will not be due to a conscious thought, it will have been pure reflexes.

However, everything that we would call a determined action, will have a thought (or many) preceding it, that you would name as the "deciding" thought. Where did that thought come from, how did it originate, who "willed" it into being? Nobody.

but you DID decide not to do or do the action that corresponds to the thought you had.

So there was ultimately a deciding thought. One way or the other.

 

[riuTEMPriu]

Yes, but only for one certain reason - because it encourages us to make moral decisions. It does not matter whether we can or cannot control it, nobody wants to live with the guilt of what humanity is capable of - so if I have to pick one extreme, I go for free will. I don't think any of us ever have it in that we are more hormonally imbalanced than we presume, but I do think we should rely upon it.

 

[Rob Roy]

What if I run over a cute little child, who then dies, but to no one's knowing the child was a psychopath in the making and would have harmed a lot of people had it lived? Now am I accountable for saving the world from a psychopath?

If you didn't know the child was going to be a psycho and you didn't try to kill the child (your brakes failed, didn't see the kid, etc.) it wasn't an action of free will. No points for saving the world in that situation.

Sometimes things happen without our input or forethought. Although it could be argued that you decided to take that particular road that day.

Sometimes things happen because of our input Maybe the kid chose to wear clothing that day that made it difficult to see him or chose to jump into the road, timing it perfectly to get run over by you? Wouldn't the psycho kid be exercising free will in that instance?

Did you go the funeral ? Did you choose to, or not? I would call that free will.

Not every thought results in something that you might call an "action". Not all thoughts are "choosing thoughts".

Exactly. Not all, but some are. To act or not act can be, (may not always be) a choice. Again, that is when I would say a person is exercising free will.