Using coco for full or at least semi organic automated grow

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watsongreenthumb

Active Member
Hey guys I would like to hear from some folks running coco in organics, I have been running coco dtw with salts the past couple years, although the past few grows I have been adding in some organic amendments, ewc etc to my base coco perlite mix, and brewing and feeding teas roughly once a week. I have noticed that the gals seem to respond really well to this and the terps and flavor on my last few runs have been some of the best I have ever done. I have grown organically outdoors in large containers for 10 years or so but never taken the plunge indoors as I have always wanted to maximize growth and yeilds since all the inputs are expensive. I am wondering if I could create a coco based mix that would retain the properties that makes coco so great ( multiple waterings daily while keeping high o2 in root zone) but where most of the nutrition is coming from the coco mix instead of salts dissolved in the water. I am not married to keeping it 100% organic but I think a garden run like this would really simplify the setup and reduce the equipment needed, as well as reduce the amount of work and supervision I need to do for satelite gardens. Is this even possible or am I totally barking up the wrong tree here? Dont mind feeding them sometimes or brewing teas weekly etc but would be awesome to be able to simplify the setup and reduce equipment costs, as well as not have to worry that whoever is managing it daily didnt do something right with mixing nutrients, since I could just have a rez with auto topoff and a simple perastaltic pump to adjust ph.

I guess what I want is a simplified/ more foolproof organic coco setup that I can premix and fill beds with and can have a rez with just plain pH'ed water and get at least most of the benefits of coco still. Possible or no? Suggestions?
Thanks everybody
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
youraveragehorticulturist said:
Having to water a bunch isn't really an advantage in organic soil. If you add some peat to your mix your soil will retain more moisture, and you'll able to water way less often and probably be able to eliminate tons of equipment and hassle.

Sorry for taking forever to reply, had a lot going on, But is a coco/peat blend is what your suggesting? The advantage I like about the coco is the ability to keep it near an optimum moisture content while still getting plenty of o2 to the roots, instead of going back and forth between too wet and too dry like I felt like used to happen in promix. The watering is automated anyway so the frequency isnt a big deal, just want to keep that root zone in the optimum water oxygen concentration. But if adding some peat to the coco will help with that then thats the direction I will go, thanks for the suggestion.
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youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
Man... we're kinda getting into to a big topic that I'm not exactly an expert in.

Some coco guys grow in straight coco, fertilizing every watering, almost like a hydro style. Adding organics amendments to the straight coco is still sort of a "new" style. A few guys have been doing it and getting good results, but many, many people trying coco+ amendments show up here with problems.

So I consider Organic Coco "tricky."

And beds can be tricky too. I personally feel that peat is a little simpler to work with, and maybe adding some could make this whole thing a little easier.

There are also complete Soils made from coco + aeration + EWC or compost + amendments. Some of these are really good, so what you're talking about isn't completely crazy. But I think you treat them more like soil than coco. Like maybe you wouldn't mess with pH-ing the water.
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
youraveragehorticulturist said:
Man... we're kinda getting into to a big topic that I'm not exactly an expert in.

Some coco guys grow in straight coco, fertilizing every watering, almost like a hydro style. Adding organics amendments to the straight coco is still sort of a "new" style. A few guys have been doing it and getting good results, but many, many people trying coco+ amendments show up here with problems.

So I consider Organic Coco "tricky."

And beds can be tricky too. I personally feel that peat is a little simpler to work with, and maybe adding some could make this whole thing a little easier.

There are also complete Soils made from coco + aeration + EWC or compost + amendments. Some of these are really good, so what you're talking about isn't completely crazy. But I think you treat them more like soil than coco. Like maybe you wouldn't mess with pH-ing the water.
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Yeah drain to waste coco with salts is what I run right now, I am very happy with the results I have been getting from it, I was just looking to simplify the process at some of the places that are tough for me to get to more than once a week, and have had some issues with clients mixing nutrients incorrectly and causing problems or letting the rez run dry. If all they needed was straight water it would be really easy to have a float valve on the rez to keep it full and even a basic peristaltic pump to knock the ph down to where it needs to be would be simple and cheap. I would know that most likey the girls are getting their water. Anyways seems like I need to do a little experimentation at my spot and see what I come up with, thanks for the help I really do appreciate it.
 
bajasti

bajasti

Well-Known Member
Okay I'll chime in. I've done it all. From flood tables jacks 321 in coco to and currently in 2 big living soil beds one with peat base and the other with coco base.

I'm going on 15+ years of growing experience.

Best terp profiles and overall quality comes from organics delivery and dry/cure tech.

Best yield and grow speed comes from salts, minerals, hydro/aero

Aquaponics is too much upkeep for most but does have unique overall organic product.

Now coco vs peat in living no till style program:
I've had many arguments about this. Thus the reasons I put them side by side to test.
The peat base bed always puts out more full, more vigorous, much stronger plants. The kind of plants the make the stems so big and juicy that its hard to clone.
The coco does well too but just not as well as the peat base does. The cations exchange of peat is higher than coco. I didn't want to believe this coming from using coco in flood tables but the results didn't lie.
Like I said though, coco still does well, and TBH because of the less "vigorous" growth with coco, Its easier to take cuttings from the plants in that bed.

Peace
Baja
 
bajasti

bajasti

Well-Known Member
When I think about it and while I'm sitting here comparing the same cultivar cured from the 2 different beds, The coco buds are smaller, but stinker and tastier than the peat buds.

The peat buds are bigger and prettier but less smell and taste.

This actually interesting for me to see.

I harvested this about 7 months ago.

Both my beds are on their 5th cycle.

I don't PH anything and the only amendments that differ between the 2 beds are langbeinite for coco and oyster shell flour for peat.

Nothing tricky about that just make sure you get the correct amounts together. Balance, then its pretty much set it and forget it. Nature does its thing. Just give it clean water.

IMO, it's much easier to go no till organics even compared to a simple jacks 321 formula. You just have to work more in the beginning to build a good starting ecosystem.


Peace
Baja
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
bajasti said:
When I think about it and while I'm sitting here comparing the same cultivar cured from the 2 different beds, The coco buds are smaller, but stinker and tastier than the peat buds.

The peat buds are bigger and prettier but less smell and taste.

This actually interesting for me to see.

I harvested this about 7 months ago.

Both my beds are on their 5th cycle.

I don't PH anything and the only amendments that differ between the 2 beds are langbeinite for coco and oyster shell flour for peat.

Nothing tricky about that just make sure you get the correct amounts together. Balance, then its pretty much set it and forget it. Nature does its thing. Just give it clean water.

IMO, it's much easier to go no till organics even compared to a simple jacks 321 formula. You just have to work more in the beginning to build a good starting ecosystem.


Peace
Baja
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Very interesting results, and just the kind of feedback I was looking for thank you. Just like you I assumed coco must be better because of the results I have been getting running it as a hydro medium. BUT It makes sense that the low CEC thats great when running synthetics and helps keep nutrients from building up/ allows me to feed every watering- that it would work against me in organics where the nutrients are more limited and its important to retain them. I guess that downside outweighs the aeration it provides even when saturated.

You said you dont ph your water but I am curious about your waters starting ph? The water around here comes out of the tap at a ph around 8 and I have done a lot of consultations for outdoor growers who were watering with a hose and experiencing nitrogen lockout due to high soil ph, so I will probably ph the water to be on the safe side.

Going to start getting together ingredients to mix up some soil and do a test run, any recomendations for a good recipee? Probably will do a blend of peat with a little coco since I have it on hand, worm castings and pumice if I can find it but could use some input on amendments. I have some Bio live kicking around but will need to pick up some more stuff anyways.
 
Speedtriplebbc

Speedtriplebbc

Well-Known Member
I looked into this myself as I was moving to organic and mostly experienced in hydroponic. Over here in the uk there’s a lot of people using dry amendments and worm castings in coco with great results. In my opinion, the benefits of a free draining coco that’s watered twice a day are kinda lost in this as that method was to not only oxygenate the root zone but deliver nutrients immediately to the roots for optimal take up. Dry amendments are to create an ecosystem that’s breaking down and creating nutrients over time and sone Combe potentially flushed out without feeding the plants. I personally think if you wanted to keep the same method but organic, using organic liquid nutrients could work? These are ready for the plant to use immediately, although its all my opinions based on my logic so I would personally do a side by side and see what you prefer.
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
Speedtriplebbc said:
I looked into this myself as I was moving to organic and mostly experienced in hydroponic. Over here in the uk there’s a lot of people using dry amendments and worm castings in coco with great results. In my opinion, the benefits of a free draining coco that’s watered twice a day are kinda lost in this as that method was to not only oxygenate the root zone but deliver nutrients immediately to the roots for optimal take up. Dry amendments are to create an ecosystem that’s breaking down and creating nutrients over time and sone Combe potentially flushed out without feeding the plants. I personally think if you wanted to keep the same method but organic, using organic liquid nutrients could work? These are ready for the plant to use immediately, although its all my opinions based on my logic so I would personally do a side by side and see what you prefer.
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Yeah I ended up putting together a test using a blend of peat + coco, with castings, a little compost, some perlite and hydroton and some dry amendments. Running this side by side with my dtw coco. Going well so far although only on day 5 of bloom, only thing I have noticed so far is that the growth is not quite as explosive in early flower, but plants seem super healthy and happy, new growth has been really nice and sturdy.
 
bk78

bk78

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
Yeah I ended up putting together a test using a blend of peat + coco, with castings, a little compost, some perlite and hydroton and some dry amendments. Running this side by side with my dtw coco. Going well so far although only on day 5 of bloom, only thing I have noticed so far is that the growth is not quite as explosive in early flower, but plants seem super healthy and happy, new growth has been really nice and sturdy.
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Are you showing this test publicly with pics and updates?

You should start a journal from beginning to end imo.
 
Week4@inCharge

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
Yeah I ended up putting together a test using a blend of peat + coco, with castings, a little compost, some perlite and hydroton and some dry amendments. Running this side by side with my dtw coco. Going well so far although only on day 5 of bloom, only thing I have noticed so far is that the growth is not quite as explosive in early flower, but plants seem super healthy and happy, new growth has been really nice and sturdy.
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Doing the same right now, growing 50/50 mix of Happy Frog and Humbodlt Tupur (coco blend) soil. Only have to water every 3rd day. I'm about to jump into week 3 of flower. Doing good so far.
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
bk78 said:
Are you showing this test publicly with pics and updates?

You should start a journal from beginning to end imo.
Click to expand...
I wasnt really planning on it but I can continue updating this thread if you or others are interested,
Today is day 10 of flower and I actually had to dim the light back a little over my bannana cake in the organic soil, leaves are getting a touch of that very light olive green on top and feel a bit leathery, seems like I was pushing her too hard, although the ppfd was only in the 700 range.
I brewed up some terp tea from roots yesterday and fed/watered her, as well as removed some lower branching that had gotten shaded out, as well as added a fan blowing up through the canopy. When I see this kind of light olive green coloring and leathery feeling with the leaves it usually means that the temp is too cold for the light intensity, but I checked the leaf surface temp and it was 82-83 degrees, right in what seems to be the sweet spot under led. Not sure if this is related to the organic soil or not, but she is the only plant in the room with this issue so clearly I am doing something wrong somehow. Setup is one bannana cake filling out a 5x4 section of the net, in a 20 gallon fabric pot underneath a 660w efinity led bar light. Gonna check a few more things so I can hopefully get her sorted and back on track.
 
Speedtriplebbc

Speedtriplebbc

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
I wasnt really planning on it but I can continue updating this thread if you or others are interested,
Today is day 10 of flower and I actually had to dim the light back a little over my bannana cake in the organic soil, leaves are getting a touch of that very light olive green on top and feel a bit leathery, seems like I was pushing her too hard, although the ppfd was only in the 700 range.
I brewed up some terp tea from roots yesterday and fed/watered her, as well as removed some lower branching that had gotten shaded out, as well as added a fan blowing up through the canopy. When I see this kind of light olive green coloring and leathery feeling with the leaves it usually means that the temp is too cold for the light intensity, but I checked the leaf surface temp and it was 82-83 degrees, right in what seems to be the sweet spot under led. Not sure if this is related to the organic soil or not, but she is the only plant in the room with this issue so clearly I am doing something wrong somehow. Setup is one bannana cake filling out a 5x4 section of the net, in a 20 gallon fabric pot underneath a 660w efinity led bar light. Gonna check a few more things so I can hopefully get her sorted and back on track.
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Updates would be great for my interest, I’m fairly new to organic but my friend has pale leaves and currently looking at causes and solutions that sound similar
 
Hollatchaboy

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
If you want organics to work, and you're top dressing, you need to add mulch. Otherwise, your soils microbiology will diminish quick. Plus the whole runoff thing with bottled nutes, you shouldn't do that with organics. You wash your microbiology away.

If you want to grow organics, but you want something closer to hydro performance, and perfect moisture levels, in soil, look into sub irrigated planters.
 
Y

youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
watsongreenthumb said:
I wasnt really planning on it but I can continue updating this thread if you or others are interested,
Today is day 10 of flower and I actually had to dim the light back a little over my bannana cake in the organic soil, leaves are getting a touch of that very light olive green on top and feel a bit leathery, seems like I was pushing her too hard, although the ppfd was only in the 700 range.
I brewed up some terp tea from roots yesterday and fed/watered her, as well as removed some lower branching that had gotten shaded out, as well as added a fan blowing up through the canopy. When I see this kind of light olive green coloring and leathery feeling with the leaves it usually means that the temp is too cold for the light intensity, but I checked the leaf surface temp and it was 82-83 degrees, right in what seems to be the sweet spot under led. Not sure if this is related to the organic soil or not, but she is the only plant in the room with this issue so clearly I am doing something wrong somehow. Setup is one bannana cake filling out a 5x4 section of the net, in a 20 gallon fabric pot underneath a 660w efinity led bar light. Gonna check a few more things so I can hopefully get her sorted and back on track.
Click to expand...
What's your Terp Tea routine like?
 
W

watsongreenthumb

Active Member
youraveragehorticulturist said:
What's your Terp Tea routine like?
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I usually put a full shot glass worth of the microbe charge and then a shot glass not quite full of either their grow or bloom, (or a mix of both) into a 5 gallon bucket with roughly 4 gallons of dechlorinated and ph'ed water and a big air disc at the bottom, then I aerate for between 4-24 hours. Then I remove the air disc, fill the bucket the rest of the way up and check the ph, adjust as needed and then feed to the plants. The air pump I use is one of those cast aluminum "commercial" air pumps with a barb for 1/4" id- 3/8" od tubing, and I run that straight to the 1/4" id barb on the air disc (no manifold). If you stick the suction cups on the disc to the bottom of the bucket after you add the water but before the terp tea mix it holds pretty well, but if you forget and add the terp tea mix before sticking the airdisc to the bottom the suction cups will not hold and you will need to weigh it down with something.

I only have 1 plant in a 20 gallon fabric pot right now in organic soil so 5 gallons is just enough but if I switched more plants to organics I would need to build at least one of those 20 gallon trash can tea brewers, and probably get a bigger air pump. Hope that helps
 
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