Will SCOTUS strike down affirmative action

[Herb & Suds]

I appreciate you pointing those things out. I have been guilty myself of seeing edited material and thinking it was all true. But I will make a diligent and true effort to research things when I hear them or see them. And the reason I say that is because a responsible voter i have become so disenchanted with our political climate and all the bi- partisan bs. The last Presidential election I almost didn't vote because of being so disenchanted. But as an American citizen I feel it is my duty to vote. Just like I felt it was my duty to serve in the US ARMY for 12 years. I don't know why I said that it has nothing to do with this thread but sometimes I go on rants.

Thanks for your service
It’s a strange new world in politics these days
I never expected to be anything but an independent
Ended up a Republican for the most part and now find myself a full blown democratic voter in the name of patriotism
Extremes used to be agreed by both sides as the outliers but somehow the GOP has become the GQP and too extreme to ever support again in my lifetime
Hopefully they change in yours
Neither side should be a 100% for the far extreme
But I never thought in my lifetime I would see Americans attacking our government and leaders condoning it
The world has gone nutz

 

[hanimmal]

I have to be honest and admit that I voted for Trump the first time. I must also admit that I wish I hadn't. I voted for Biden last election.

It happens, it is good you saw through it.

The biggest things I disagree with when it comes to Democrats is the border security that is non existent,

There is two ways I look at this.

First, there is no nation that is invading us from our southern border. We are not in danger of our borders being breached by an countries army. To think that our southern border is insecure from that standpoint doesn't make sense to me. Which is why I don't believe the 'border is insecure' schtick.

Second, as for the immigrant/migrant workers/consumers on both sides of the border that move back and forth to shop, businesses that work cross border, drugs, migrants finding a new home, ect. it is hard to know what it is you are considering bad that the Democrats are doing, and why it is that it has not been addressed since at least 85-ish when the last major legislation on immigration was passed.

I guess the question becomes what about it is that you are worried about.

and the handling of the economy. I know I am going to catch flack over that statement but it is my opinion.

lol yeah, that is a pet peeve of mine. The fact that every Republican president since before Nixon has caused a recession in their presidency while they continue to allow all of our societies safety net (mental health, education (as they maneuver tax payer money into their rich donors private schools), prison (privatization), on and on rot due to underfunding it) get cut so they can give big tax breaks to the wealthy.

And the Republicans point to cities that have oversized police forces that they put in place as they fled to the suburbs and gerrymandered all the power away from those cities, causing the decay we continue to witness to this day (see Mississippi's water problems).

Trickledown economics never worked, and if you add up the statistics on almost every single economic statistic the Democrats have ran the country far better than the Republicans do.

But I must say in fairness is that the biggest things I disagree with when it comes to Republicans is their sharp bi-partisanism (not sure if that is a word) their without fail backing of Donald Trump, and I really feel as though they have been on the wrong side of important issues to me such as race related issues, the affordable care act and I could name more. But I could name more issues from both sides I do not agree with.

My biggest problem with the Republicans is that they are running on propaganda that they use to obscure any facts from being able to be discussed rationally with the help of foreign dictators.

They have sold us out as a nation, and it is not to our (American citizens) benefit.

I am going to dinner with my family. I will pick this up when I get back. Thanks for the good discussion and mutual respect we have shown one another.

Hope it was good.

 

[Budley Doright]

It happens, it is good you saw through it.
There is two ways I look at this.

First, there is no nation that is invading us from our southern border. We are not in danger of our borders being breached by an countries army. To think that our southern border is insecure from that standpoint doesn't make sense to me. Which is why I don't believe the 'border is insecure' schtick.

Second, as for the immigrant/migrant workers/consumers on both sides of the border that move back and forth to shop, businesses that work cross border, drugs, migrants finding a new home, ect. it is hard to know what it is you are considering bad that the Democrats are doing, and why it is that it has not been addressed since at least 85-ish when the last major legislation on immigration was passed.

I guess the question becomes what about it is that you are worried about.
lol yeah, that is a pet peeve of mine. The fact that every Republican president since before Nixon has caused a recession in their presidency while they continue to allow all of our societies safety net (mental health, education (as they maneuver tax payer money into their rich donors private schools), prison (privatization), on and on rot due to underfunding it) get cut so they can give big tax breaks to the wealthy.

And the Republicans point to cities that have oversized police forces that they put in place as they fled to the suburbs and gerrymandered all the power away from those cities, causing the decay we continue to witness to this day (see Mississippi's water problems).

Trickledown economics never worked, and if you add up the statistics on almost every single economic statistic the Democrats have ran the country far better than the Republicans do.


My biggest problem with the Republicans is that they are running on propaganda that they use to obscure any facts from being able to be discussed rationally with the help of foreign dictators.

They have sold us out as a nation, and it is not to our (American citizens) benefit.


Hope it was good.

I was also curious about the border comments? I live close to the northern border and it’s secure, kind of lol. From the sources on the, I’m assuming right leaning side, there are hordes crossing as we speak (open borders is the term most quoted), just walking across. I would have to ask though, is this factual? Honestly if this were true I would be a bit concerned. But then I read “record number apprehended” so how are they “open borders”? Also is it only the left that heads to Home Depot to hire day labour first thing in the morning? Does saving money (on the backs of your fellow man trump (eesh) fit your morals? I’m just trying to understand the mixed messages I’m getting here on the many things I find to be contradictory, and mostly from right leaning folks, yes I may be biased.

 

[cannabineer]

I was also curious about the border comments? I live close to the northern border and it’s secure, kind of lol. From the sources on the, I’m assuming right leaning side, there are hordes crossing as we speak (open borders is the term most quoted), just walking across. I would have to ask though, is this factual? Honestly if this were true I would be a bit concerned. But then I read “record number apprehended” so how are they “open borders”? Also is it only the left that heads to Home Depot to hire day labour first thing in the morning? Does saving money (on the backs of your fellow man trump (eesh) your morals? I’m just trying to understand the mixed messages I’m getting here on the many things I find to be contradictory, and mostly from right leaning folks, yes I may be biased.

Remember “test less, and there will be less Covid”?
Under that man, they apprehended fewer, so obviously it was less of a problem then.
See how it works?

 

[sweetisland2009]

This is an issue that is not getting much play but is close to my heart. As a Native American (who looks white) that has been married to a black woman for over 20 years and have raised 2 black son's this is a hot button issue for me. I hope that the court does not strike it down. I have a lot more to say about this issue but am curious to see what others have to say and see some others opinions.

I don’t have kids (edit: yet ) but am in a mixed marriage as well

I just have a difficult time understanding why it would be ok for me as a parent, to know my child who may not have worked as hard or I may not have given my all staying up late with them or whatever - could potentially take the spot of another child who put in the work to really stand out just because mine has a different race. If 100 applicants out of 1000 are accepted, having this ratio of white to brown to black to whatever should be way down the list of what matters, or not a factor at all.

“White people” are extremely diverse in background, beliefs, ways of life, etc so it’s just strange to me checking a box of race is even a consideration or a part of an application for higher education for the sake of diversity. Just like being black doesn’t make you automatically (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else) or Asian people are (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else.)

Im not opposed to making space for kids who may have come from difficult environments who may not have the highest test scores but show ambition and effort in their own way, (like a kid who has been working since 15 to help their family make ends meet, or they’ve taken care of a family member, or they were raised by the CPS system) but in my opinion race shouldn’t be a factor in those that are accepted

In my opinion no one should be included or excluded because of their race at a school or a company or anything really.

 

[sunni]

I don’t have kids (edit: yet ) but am in a mixed marriage as well

I just have a difficult time understanding why it would be ok for me as a parent, to know my child who may not have worked as hard or I may not have given my all staying up late with them or whatever - could potentially take the spot of another child who put in the work to really stand out just because mine has a different race. If 100 applicants out of 1000 are accepted, having this ratio of white to brown to black to whatever should be way down the list of what matters, or not a factor at all.

“White people” are extremely diverse in background, beliefs, ways of life, etc so it’s just strange to me checking a box of race is even a consideration or a part of an application for higher education for the sake of diversity. Just like being black doesn’t make you automatically (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else) or Asian people are (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else.)

Im not opposed to making space for kids who may have come from difficult environments who may not have the highest test scores but show ambition and effort in their own way, (like a kid who has been working since 15 to help their family make ends meet, or they’ve taken care of a family member, or they were raised by the CPS system) but in my opinion race shouldn’t be a factor in those that are accepted

In my opinion no one should be included or excluded because of their race at a school or a company or anything really.

truthfully i don't respond to politics much im going to touch base on this because I have a background in aboriginal social work

predominately, POCs have been consistently pushed into poverty, segregation etc, which makes their lives harder which makes them have less of a chance which is what you're advocating for them to be accepted into these programs. or given chances they need to get out of the cycle,

but race does play a factor because the numbers show children who are POC are the ones struggling the most with the issues society and politics have placed before them, segregation was a hot minute ago. they are literally still digging up dead bodies of children from residential schools the last residential school was closed in 1990.
Children are suffering the effects of these because of that, even today there is socioeconomic issues for POC

So race plays a large part of this.


Yes there are white children who live in poverty who cannot get out who should also get these chances, no ones saying they shouldn't but the majority of children in this situations are POC ,

I know some people want to think race has nothing to do with things but it does. and it has historically and its still happening today

 

[Skillcraft]

Thanks for your service
It’s a strange new world in politics these days
I never expected to be anything but an independent
Ended up a Republican for the most part and now find myself a full blown democratic voter in the name of patriotism
Extremes used to be agreed by both sides as the outliers but somehow the GOP has become the GQP and too extreme to ever support again in my lifetime
Hopefully they change in yours
Neither side should be a 100% for the far extreme
But I never thought in my lifetime I would see Americans attacking our government and leaders condoning it
The world has gone nutz

The extremist that have come to the forefront of the Republican party is why I did not support them last election. It very well may be the reason I do not vote for them this time. I will go vote tomorrow and I will not vote for anyone who supports the election was stolen lie.

 

[Budley Doright]

Remember “test less, and there will be less Covid”?
Under that man, they apprehended fewer, so obviously it was less of a problem then.
See how it works?

I’m pretty sure there are a few reasons that more are apprehended but I have a hard time with “ it’s Biden’s fault”, I could have missed something so waiting for some answers from those who think exactly that.

 

[BudmanTX]

i have a hard listening to the GOP down here saying "it's Bidens fault" for our southern border...sheesh

 

[cannabineer]

The extremist that have come to the forefront of the Republican party is why I did not support them last election. It very well may be the reason I do not vote for them this time. I will go vote tomorrow and I will not vote for anyone who supports the election was stolen lie.

I am still curious whom you see as extreme left.

 

[Tolerance Break]

I hope we get rid of affirmative action and introduce something better. They were trying to fix the problem without addressing the foundation, mainly that we as a collective never truly integrated, and there are social and cultural crutches that keep us separate.

Equality of outcome is a bad basis for policy if for no other reason than it breeds division and turns people against each other, however, doing nothing is unequivocally worse.

 

[Fogdog]

I hope we get rid of affirmative action and introduce something better. They were trying to fix the problem without addressing the foundation, mainly that we as a collective never truly integrated, and there are social and cultural crutches that keep us separate.

Equality of outcome is a bad basis for policy if for no other reason than it breeds division and turns people against each other, however, doing nothing is unequivocally worse.

What do you think affirmative action is?

 

[Tolerance Break]

What do you think affirmative action is?

In the loosest terms, artificial equality of outcome.

 

[PJ Diaz]

Affirmative action is such a tricky one, because on the one hand I understand and agree with the reality that people of color have been disenfranchised from our society in so many ways over the past decades, and do deserve some extra assistance is attaining the "American Dream". However, I fear that affirmative action has the potential to swing too far, and have equal and opposite negative impacts, especially when it comes to hiring and admissions. Is it right and just that a lesser candidate is accepted to a position or institution, over an otherwise better candidate, simply based on their race? When we do that and favor white people, it's called illegal discrimination, but when we favor people of color we call it favoring diversity. It's really a tough call for me, because I do favor diversity.

Another question I have, is what exactly is a person of color? As an example, I'm white and my wife is latina (although relatively light skinned), and we have mixed kids who basically look white, but they are half-latino. Are they POC's?

 

[Fogdog]

In the loosest terms, artificial equality of outcome.

What do you mean by outcome?

 

[BudmanTX]

you sitting here doing a little work, i decided to look for a definition of affirmative action....the more i read it...the more it looks like a double edge sword....hmmm

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I don’t have kids (edit: yet ) but am in a mixed marriage as well

I just have a difficult time understanding why it would be ok for me as a parent, to know my child who may not have worked as hard or I may not have given my all staying up late with them or whatever - could potentially take the spot of another child who put in the work to really stand out just because mine has a different race. If 100 applicants out of 1000 are accepted, having this ratio of white to brown to black to whatever should be way down the list of what matters, or not a factor at all.

“White people” are extremely diverse in background, beliefs, ways of life, etc so it’s just strange to me checking a box of race is even a consideration or a part of an application for higher education for the sake of diversity. Just like being black doesn’t make you automatically (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else) or Asian people are (insert whatever assumptions are made by someone else.)

Im not opposed to making space for kids who may have come from difficult environments who may not have the highest test scores but show ambition and effort in their own way, (like a kid who has been working since 15 to help their family make ends meet, or they’ve taken care of a family member, or they were raised by the CPS system) but in my opinion race shouldn’t be a factor in those that are accepted

In my opinion no one should be included or excluded because of their race at a school or a company or anything really.

and no one should have been included or excluded because of their race over red line laws, over the placement of interstates through black neighborhoods, over jim crow laws?...after subjecting people to that kind of shit for almost 300 years, they don't deserve anything from us?

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

The extremist that have come to the forefront of the Republican party is why I did not support them last election. It very well may be the reason I do not vote for them this time. I will go vote tomorrow and I will not vote for anyone who supports the election was stolen lie.

the extremist have come to the forefront...but they've been there since the 1940s, and they aren't going anywhere until they're forced to.
this is the culmination of decades of planning and lies by the republicans. their plan was fucked up by trump, who vastly accelerated their plan and drew attention to it. that's some small comfort, that the worst president ever, past or future, may have actually accidentally saved democracy, by fucking up the republican schedule.

 

[Tolerance Break]

and no one should have been included or excluded because of their race over red line laws, over the placement of interstates through black neighborhoods, over jim crow laws?...after subjecting people to that kind of shit for almost 300 years, they don't deserve anything from us?

They deserve much, much more.

AA is a bandaid on a rape victim. The problems are systemic, and the solution has to be aswell.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I hope we get rid of affirmative action and introduce something better. They were trying to fix the problem without addressing the foundation, mainly that we as a collective never truly integrated, and there are social and cultural crutches that keep us separate.

Equality of outcome is a bad basis for policy if for no other reason than it breeds division and turns people against each other, however, doing nothing is unequivocally worse.

equality isn't enough, really. equality takes care of the future, but what about 300 years of hate and fear and pain and suffering? what about building a thriving family business and having it shut down by laws white people passed, so they don't have to compete with you?
what about minority parents that know their kids are going to schools that can't teach them the truth, because the truth makes the republican narrative into the big pile of ridiculous bullshit that it is?