War

DIY-HP-LED said:
He was a victim of that old Russian imperial attitude mentioned in the article I posted above, so is Vlad and so are a lot of Russians. The difference between them and other former soviet republics says a lot, the populations fear and loath Russians. There is an increasing awareness in the west of this imperial aggressive attitude and it's profound link to the lack of liberal democracy in Russia. Liberal democracy would mean dissolution, a failed state and an end of rule by the secret police that goes back centuries.

Liberal democracy tends to destroy empires as it did with the UK. Gandhi was a UK trained lawyer and spotted the weakness of the empire as it evolved into a liberal democracy and used non violent means and PR to win hearts and minds, particularly in America. Gandhi's method of non violent protest only really works in a liberal democracy, if Hitler ran the place he would have shot Gandhi! After the Atlantic and UN charters the UK was morally and legally bound to give up the empire and did, though when the cold war started America was in no rush to see it go.
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I gotta point out Britain built their empire with the current model of government in place.
 
DIY-HP-LED said:
if they want peace and breathing room.
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That seems to be the problem...They don't want peace, and don't seem to be having a lot of trouble breathing.
Their leadership doesn't give a shit how many die if they end up with what they want.
Those outside of the situation can see that they're already in an untenable position, they don't have enough men to take the country, they don't have enough men to occupy if they did by some miracle take Ukraine, and wouldn't if they stripped the rest of russia bare of defenses, something they dare not do.
They have already lost, the very best they could possibly do is restore the status quo previous to their invasion...which isn't going to happen.
and yet, they still insist that they're winning, that they will not only be victorious in Ukraine, but that Poland and Moldova will be the next to fall.
A comfortable majority of russians support both putin and his murder spree. there will be no domestic pressure to end the war, only disappointment that their children won't be returning home with all the things they stole before they were killed by the Ukrainians.
 
Roger A. Shrubber said:
That seems to be the problem...They don't want peace, and don't seem to be having a lot of trouble breathing.
Their leadership doesn't give a shit how many die if they end up with what they want.
Those outside of the situation can see that they're already in an untenable position, they don't have enough men to take the country, they don't have enough men to occupy if they did by some miracle take Ukraine, and wouldn't if they stripped the rest of russia bare of defenses, something they dare not do.
They have already lost, the very best they could possibly do is restore the status quo previous to their invasion...which isn't going to happen.
and yet, they still insist that they're winning, that they will not only be victorious in Ukraine, but that Poland and Moldova will be the next to fall.
A comfortable majority of russians support both putin and his murder spree. there will be no domestic pressure to end the war, only disappointment that their children won't be returning home with all the things they stole before they were killed by the Ukrainians.
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as for that comfortable majority of Russians, @printer has kept us up to date on their news, which makes Fox look honest. If that’s all you hear, your view will be shaped by it.
 
DIY-HP-LED said:
Well something brain washed the idiot like a Trumper at the capitol! Why exactly are they in Ukraine, money aside? The Russians are victims of bullshit, they gave up their freedom for the myth of empire and a sense of superiority and nationalist destiny that is deeply embedded in the culture. You might as well try and eradicate racism from the white people of the south, it is culturally ingrained, systemic and institutionalized.
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some people don't have to be brain washed...they're just fucking evil on their own.
There ISN'T always some reasonable explanation, some terrible thing that made them turn bad...they didn't need to turn, they were born bad, and got worse as they matured.
russia does employ propaganda, and i do realize it has an effect on some people, but i am proof that just because someone lives in a certain area and is exposed to the bullshit, that they are COMPELLED like a fucking zombie to swallow it.
 
cannabineer said:
I gotta point out Britain built their empire with the current model of government in place.
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The American model yes, but things moved on since the second empire, the King lost even more power and so did the Lords, but things never changed much in America and for similar reasons to Russia.
 
cannabineer said:
the British never ran the American model.
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America is a copy of the British government as it existed in 1785. The President replaced the King, the house replaced the commons and the senate replaced the Lords and was appointed by the states back then. The legal system is jury based and adversarial, all the founding father lawyers were English trained lawyers.
 
DIY-HP-LED said:
America is a copy of the British government as it existed in 1785. The President replaced the King, the house replaced the commons and the senate replaced the Lords and was appointed by the states back then. The legal system is jury based and adversarial, all the founding father lawyers were English trained lawyers.
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It is nowhere near that simple.
 
DIY-HP-LED said:
America is a copy of the British government as it existed in 1785. The President replaced the King, the house replaced the commons and the senate replaced the Lords and was appointed by the states back then. The legal system is jury based and adversarial, all the founding father lawyers were English trained lawyers.
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Yeah, just like that except is wasn'y anything like that.
 
cannabineer said:
It is nowhere near that simple.
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It is the basic structure, the legislatures existed well before the revolution and were an English tradition along with independent courts and jury trials. Only white males who were property owners had the franchise and the south had a proto aristocracy. It was the only system the lawyers who created it knew that worked at the time. John Adams for instance was the lawyer who defended the British soldiers of the Boston massacre in a jury trial.
 
Roger A. Shrubber said:
That seems to be the problem...They don't want peace, and don't seem to be having a lot of trouble breathing.
Their leadership doesn't give a shit how many die if they end up with what they want.
Those outside of the situation can see that they're already in an untenable position, they don't have enough men to take the country, they don't have enough men to occupy if they did by some miracle take Ukraine, and wouldn't if they stripped the rest of russia bare of defenses, something they dare not do.
They have already lost, the very best they could possibly do is restore the status quo previous to their invasion...which isn't going to happen.
and yet, they still insist that they're winning, that they will not only be victorious in Ukraine, but that Poland and Moldova will be the next to fall.
A comfortable majority of russians support both putin and his murder spree. there will be no domestic pressure to end the war, only disappointment that their children won't be returning home with all the things they stole before they were killed by the Ukrainians.
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The more I look at revisionist history the more this war seems inevitable,Putin started getting pissy w/the US invasion of Iraq,he was already down w/the Soviet collapse as the biggest geo-political tragedy of the 20th century upon replacing Yeltzin. In 2006 he essentially declared Russia as a anti-west adversary in pursuance of their own geo-political agenda at a speech in Europe. Subsequently he invaded Georgia essentially telling Bush to FK off. He was ripshit when then VP Biden addressed Russian students in a rise up pro democracy speech which resulted in protests that stunned him and that he ended up crushing w/arrests and beatings.He saw the West as a meddling revolution fomenting rival to his vision. After a period of relative quiet during his Olympic showcase he moved on Crimea and started a proxy invasion in eastern Ukraine(in his 06 He told Bush Ukraine is not a "real" country).VPBiden lost a debate w/Obama over action to take,Biden wanted to arm Ukraine then but Obama chose sanctions.The Trump adm. was a godsend for Putin,he had a useful idiot in Trump and a pro Russian Ukranian pres. meaning he'd be able to bring Ukraine into the fold through soft power and subterfuge.With all the prior actions which now included meddling in a US election and Syrian intervention his balls were huge.Then Zelinsky came to power in Ukraine and Trump lost in 2020 and he went for it w/his invasion. Looking back I'm not sure how anything could have dissuaded Putin,the timeline may have been different had Trump been defeated in 2016.But from the 2003 Iraq invasion onward he relished his role as the number one adversary to the west.
 
Roger A. Shrubber said:
some people don't have to be brain washed...they're just fucking evil on their own.
There ISN'T always some reasonable explanation, some terrible thing that made them turn bad...they didn't need to turn, they were born bad, and got worse as they matured.
russia does employ propaganda, and i do realize it has an effect on some people, but i am proof that just because someone lives in a certain area and is exposed to the bullshit, that they are COMPELLED like a fucking zombie to swallow it.
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they are NOT compelled :dunce:
 
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CCGNZ said:
The more I look at revisionist history the more this war seems inevitable,Putin started getting pissy w/the US invasion of Iraq,he was already down w/the Soviet collapse as the biggest geo-political tragedy of the 20th century upon replacing Yeltzin. In 2006 he essentially declared Russia as a anti-west adversary in pursuance of their own geo-political agenda at a speech in Europe. Subsequently he invaded Georgia essentially telling Bush to FK off. He was ripshit when then VP Biden addressed Russian students in a rise up pro democracy speech which resulted in protests that stunned him and that he ended up crushing w/arrests and beatings.He saw the West as a meddling revolution fomenting rival to his vision. After a period of relative quiet during his Olympic showcase he moved on Crimea and started a proxy invasion in eastern Ukraine(in his 06 He told Bush Ukraine is not a "real" country).VPBiden lost a debate w/Obama over action to take,Biden wanted to arm Ukraine then but Obama chose sanctions.The Trump adm. was a godsend for Putin,he had a useful idiot in Trump and a pro Russian Ukranian pres. meaning he'd be able to bring Ukraine into the fold through soft power and subterfuge.With all the prior actions which now included meddling in a US election and Syrian intervention his balls were huge.Then Zelinsky came to power in Ukraine and Trump lost in 2020 and he went for it w/his invasion. Looking back I'm not sure how anything could have dissuaded Putin,the timeline may have been different had Trump been defeated in 2016.But from the 2003 Iraq invasion onward he relished his role as the number one adversary to the west.
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All true, but the history explains why he had the attitude and why so many Russians share it and support the invasion. With the history we are talking about the culture these people are embedded in and their odd resistance or indifference to liberal democracy. Vlad didn't act alone and there are more reasons for the passive Russian attitude than just having no freedom, or valuing it, they also have a sense of cultural entitlement and dominance.

The only reason Russia existed in it's present form is because it was an empire and they have a long history of genocide and rule through the secret police. The secret police keep the distant republics in line and in the empire and Russians must trade their liberty for an empire. The soviet experience was just an extension and expansion of the empire and the same attitude of imposing one's will and dominance on another. Today it is a rump of the old USSR, but the federation is still an empire and any moves towards liberal democracy would lead to dissolution.

Your narrative as to Vlad's personal motives is correct, but what lead him and his country to this point and repeated catastrophes is important too. The attitude and sense of entitlement came before the war, it was Vlad's mistake and Vlad's war, but the conditions in the country allowed it to happen and continue to the point of national catastrophe.
 
CCGNZ said:
The more I look at revisionist history the more this war seems inevitable,Putin started getting pissy w/the US invasion of Iraq,he was already down w/the Soviet collapse as the biggest geo-political tragedy of the 20th century upon replacing Yeltzin. In 2006 he essentially declared Russia as a anti-west adversary in pursuance of their own geo-political agenda at a speech in Europe. Subsequently he invaded Georgia essentially telling Bush to FK off. He was ripshit when then VP Biden addressed Russian students in a rise up pro democracy speech which resulted in protests that stunned him and that he ended up crushing w/arrests and beatings.He saw the West as a meddling revolution fomenting rival to his vision. After a period of relative quiet during his Olympic showcase he moved on Crimea and started a proxy invasion in eastern Ukraine(in his 06 He told Bush Ukraine is not a "real" country).VPBiden lost a debate w/Obama over action to take,Biden wanted to arm Ukraine then but Obama chose sanctions.The Trump adm. was a godsend for Putin,he had a useful idiot in Trump and a pro Russian Ukranian pres. meaning he'd be able to bring Ukraine into the fold through soft power and subterfuge.With all the prior actions which now included meddling in a US election and Syrian intervention his balls were huge.Then Zelinsky came to power in Ukraine and Trump lost in 2020 and he went for it w/his invasion. Looking back I'm not sure how anything could have dissuaded Putin,the timeline may have been different had Trump been defeated in 2016.But from the 2003 Iraq invasion onward he relished his role as the number one adversary to the west.
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putin is still the same kgb officer running spies in east Germany before russia imploded. He still has people poisoned and thrown out of windows, but he did forget one thing...to keep an eye on your organization.
He allowed corruption to run rampant, with little to no over sight or direct supervision, and it cost him, a bill that is still growing.
 
DIY-HP-LED said:
All true, but the history explains why he had the attitude and why so many Russians share it and support the invasion. With the history we are talking about the culture these people are embedded in and their odd resistance or indifference to liberal democracy. Vlad didn't act alone and there are more reasons for the passive Russian attitude than just having no freedom, or valuing it, they also have a sense of cultural entitlement and dominance.

The only reason Russia existed in it's present form is because it was an empire and they have a long history of genocide and rule through the secret police. The secret police keep the distant republics in line and in the empire and Russians must trade their liberty for an empire. The soviet experience was just an extension and expansion of the empire and the same attitude of imposing one's will and dominance on another. Today it is a rump of the old USSR, but the federation is still an empire and any moves towards liberal democracy would lead to dissolution.

Your narrative as to Vlad's personal motives is correct, but what lead him and his country to this point and repeated catastrophes is important too. The attitude and sense of entitlement came before the war, it was Vlad's mistake and Vlad's war, but the conditions in the country allowed it to happen and continue to the point of national catastrophe.
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Are Russian attitudes ever going to evolve,if you don't innovate you can still assimilate,they STILL have no regard for or show no inclination to adapt to the western doctrines of warfare. Bottom to top structure empowering jr. officers and nco's to alter plans when necessary, limiting casualties,aversion to collateral damage.On the civilian side,aren't the average Russian people in envy of western freedoms and living standards. It's kind of perplexing,if they want to stay in darkness fine though I'd be less concerned if they didn't possess the capability to incinerate the world. Seems like PRIDE is the Russian peoples biggest adversary.
 
CCGNZ said:
Are Russian attitudes ever going to evolve,if you don't innovate you can still assimilate,they STILL have no regard for or show no inclination to adapt to the western doctrines of warfare. Bottom to top structure empowering jr. officers and nco's to alter plans when necessary, limiting casualties,aversion to collateral damage.On the civilian side,aren't the average Russian people in envy of western freedoms and living standards. It's kind of perplexing,if they want to stay in darkness fine though I'd be less concerned if they didn't possess the capability to incinerate the world. Seems like PRIDE is the Russian peoples biggest adversary.
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they grew up immersed in propaganda, every day of their lives. we did, as well, but ours is a lot more subtle, and involves omission a lot more than active lies...
russia just seems to make up huge honking lies, and spreads them with impunity, and their people just suck it up, no matter how obvious the lies, no matter how convoluted and just plain broken the logic is.
They've had access to the internet for a couple of generations now, the truth is out there if any of them were interested in finding it, but they seem quite comfortable being lied to, as long as they can stay drunk and fed, and get an occasional little western toy to play with.
The only time those who live in the major cities seem to get upset is when something disrupts their personal comforts. The rest of russia, and russians do not concern them, those are the hinterlands, populated with subhuman cannon fodder.
 
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